Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[YeshuaFan]

Why do you even consider the "lead up" when the VERSE ITSELF gives the reason. In doing so, you violate the golden rule of hermeneutics which states, When the meaning of a verses makes plain sense, seek no other sense,

Jesus stated to us that ALL the father give to Him to get saved will be eternally secured, as NONE of them will be lost, as ALL of them He will resurrect, correct?

 

[Oldmantook]

I think the, or one of the issues is how much is really us and really God in that... I do think there would at least some (form of) minimal cooperation on our part though...

In some way, big or small, our own will is involved... Maybe till were truly made perfect and perfected anyway...

And/but obedience to and in the Faith right...?, and the rule an Law (covenant) of Faith...? And the commandment, Love...? Or not...?

God Bless!

A covenantal relationship requires obligations of both parties to the Covenant. God never fails to fulfill his obligation. Human beings well....not always. Throughout the OT and NT, humankind is described as being given a choice - to believe and obey God or to not believe and disobey God. Adam & Eve were given that choice. The Israelites were given that choice. Believers today are given that choice. So yes I agree with you that our will in some way, big or small is involved. That is why believers are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We work out our salvation by the choices we make.

 

[Oldmantook]

Jesus stated to us that ALL the father give to Him to get saved will be eternally secured, as NONE of them will be lost, as ALL of them He will resurrect, correct?

Correct except that you ignore, or probably are not aware of John 17:6-12. As you read this passage, pay attention to the details. Specifically, note how Judas is compared/contrasted with the other disciples. Note how Judas along with the other disciples was given to Jesus by the Father but yet, Judas was lost. Judas despite being given to Jesus by the Father did not have eternal security did he?

 

[DeeR.]

Not true. Please read 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Corinthians 7:1.


Universalism is just ridiculous. Sorry. It just is. It does not line up with true justice or the Bible. There is not one verse that supports it (and for good reason).

There are some things in life that you just don’t debate or discuss because they are so obviously silly. There are Christians who think porn is okay. This is about as crazy as that. Sorry, moving on from talking to you.

It is interesting that you feel that because we should not and have the power not to sin or be tempted that we are not capable of falling short or stumbling. Try to hear what people are actually saying and be less quick to label everybody and their beliefs and you may find you are just reading into what others are saying beyond what is being said. Christians will backslide and need to repent, they will desire wrong things and be led astray at times.

 

[ClementofA]

We are reconciled to Christ upon being regenerated by the Spirit. Thus we are presently reconciled.

What i'm wondering about is an OSAS response saying that Paul does not say they "are presently reconciled" (v.22). What he says is they are "now reconciled...if", i.e. on the condition that they "continue in the faith" (v.23). If they don't continue in the faith, then they are not "now reconciled" & did not "now" have genuine faith.

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in the faith...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Correct except that you ignore, or probably are not aware of John 17:6-12. As you read this passage, pay attention to the details. Specifically, note how Judas is compared/contrasted with the other disciples. Note how Judas along with the other disciples was given to Jesus by the Father but yet, Judas was lost. Judas despite being given to Jesus by the Father did not have eternal security did he?

You need to reread verse 12.

It says none was lost, BUT the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So Judas was not one of them given to Christ by the Father.

 

[Oldmantook]

Your own words say people can be with God (believers) then separate/depart from Him and were never believers...but now you say How can one be of the faith(believers) and not be true believers.... what are you saying????

Let me elaborate. We are talking about two kinds of people here. One kind is people who are not true believers. In other words perhaps they are just seekers or whatever but they have not yet believed; are not converted and not regenerated by the Holy Spirit like many in the church today who attend church but are not actually saved. So we both agree with what 1 Jn 2:19 states: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. This verse states that those who left were not of us; i.e, not believers. However it is important to note that this kind of people (unbelievers) cannot apostatize because they never belonged to the faith in the first place. The Greek word for apostasy is parapiptō. It is significant to note that this word is not employed in 1 Jn 2:19. As far as I know, this word is only used in Heb 6:6. So Heb 6:6 refers to believers who apostatize. 1 Jn 2:19 on the other hand just refers to those who were not believers but simply left and no longer remained the church. This verse simply states that they "went out from us." It does not state that they apostatized as it is impossible for unbelievers to apostatize.
We have people who drop out of the church who were never believers. We also have people who drop out of the church and commit apostasy who were actual believers. The former group cannot be said to apostatize because they were never part of the faith. The latter group are said to apostatize because they were indeed at one time, part of the faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

You need to reread verse 12.

It says none was lost, BUT the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So Judas was not one of them given to Christ by the Father.

Did you actually bother to carefully read the entire passage as I suggested?
I suggest you do so. If you did, you would plainly notice that in Jn 17:6,9,11,12 that these men (Judas and the rest of the disciples) were GIVEN TO JESUS BY THE FATHER. Judas and the other disciples were THE ELECT - a soteriological term/label that exclusively refers to genuine, saved believers only. Therefore since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father - JUDAS WAS SAVED! There is no distinction between Judas and the other disciples, except for the sole fact that he betrayed the Lord, Judas was lost. Salvation is not secure, is it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is interesting that you feel that because we should not and have the power not to sin or be tempted that we are not capable of falling short or stumbling. Try to hear what people are actually saying and be less quick to label everybody and their beliefs and you may find you are just reading into what others are saying beyond what is being said. Christians will backslide and need to repent, they will desire wrong things and be led astray at times.

This is not my first rodeo. I have been fighting against Eternal Security for about 7 years now (and the more I do, the more Scripture and the more real world examples I find that completely demolishes it). Even men who are against Eternal Security and a Belief Alone have also shown to believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine these days, as well. When Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that finds it. He was right! I would say about 90% of the time, just when I think somebody is not justifying sin, they are justifying sin in some way. I know the tells. I know the excuses. I know when somebody is justifying sin most of the time. I have been disappointed more times than I care to count.

I have a question for you.

Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes, or no?

 

[Oldmantook]

What i'm wondering about is an OSAS response saying that Paul does not say they "are presently reconciled" (v.22). What he says is they are "now reconciled...if", i.e. on the condition that they "continue in the faith" (v.23). If they don't continue in the faith, then they are not "now reconciled" & did not "now" have genuine faith.

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in the faith...

Unsure if I understand. OSAS are masters of word games. V.21 states they are "now reconciled." Doesn't 'now' by definition mean 'presently'? So yes, we are now/presently reconciled if we continue in the faith. In other words, we remain reconciled as long we continue in the faith. How can one remain/continue in the faith if he did not have faith to begin with? That's the question OSAS prefer to ignore.

 

[Oldmantook]

If understanding Greek was the criteria for knowing God's will many would be lost just because of the lack of education. Thank God it is given not to the wise or learned of this world, but to the simple and humble that even children can understand when it is He who speaks.

So what you are saying is that knowledge of the Greek is not of help in better understanding of Scripture. I find your notion to be preposterous. After all, the translators needed to understand the original language did they not? It is also helpful if we understand some of it also, not that we need to become experts ourselves but that we can understand/discern the Word better for ourselves.

 

[Oldmantook]

Try not to talk so much like a scholar and speak plainly. It is not with large eloquent words revelation of scripture is understood but in simplicity my friend. I am not in a knowledge debate with you over semantics. If semantics and etymology were the criteria to understand scripture we may debate like this, but I have no desire to debate with you in this manner, nor do I believe it edifies or glorifies. Every battle is not meant to be engaged. I do not believe this is coming from God so I must not engage in this at this time. Thank you for your thoughts and may God bless you.

Does it matter what terms/language I or you use? The only thing that matters is that we wrestle with the scriptures itself as iron sharpens iron. Can always agree to disagree.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Did you actually bother to carefully read the entire passage as I suggested?
I suggest you do so. If you did, you would plainly notice that in Jn 17:6,9,11,12 that these men (Judas and the rest of the disciples) were GIVEN TO JESUS BY THE FATHER. Judas and the other disciples were THE ELECT - a soteriological term/label that exclusively refers to genuine, saved believers only. Therefore since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father - JUDAS WAS SAVED! There is no distinction between Judas and the other disciples, except for the sole fact that he betrayed the Lord, Judas was lost. Salvation is not secure, is it?

Why does whether Judas was saved or not have anything to do with that verse?

If Judas was not lost, than that verse is not true, because the verse says Judas was lost.

This doesn’t or isn’t a theological discussion on whether salvation can be lost but if the verse in the Bible is true or not.

So is then your position that God lies to us in that verse?

I believe God whose Word tells me Judas was lost.

You can believe what you like of course. I’ve participated in many threads about whether Judas was saved or not. I don’t believe he ever was, but I believe Christ knew that and let Judas participate so the scripture could be fulfilled.

 

[ClementofA]

Unsure if I understand. OSAS are masters of word games. V.21 states they are "now reconciled." Doesn't 'now' by definition mean 'presently'? So yes, we are now/presently reconciled if we continue in the faith. In other words, we remain reconciled as long we continue in the faith. How can one remain/continue in the faith if he did not have faith to begin with? That's the question OSAS prefer to ignore.

"So yes, we are now/presently reconciled if we continue in the faith."

I'm considering a possible OSAS response to that, namely: if they do not "continue in the faith", then they are not "now reconciled" & are therefore not in the faith, nor ever were in the faith. Since according to OSAS one who has been in the faith stays in the faith forever.

What i'm wondering about is an OSAS response saying that Paul does not say they "are presently reconciled" (v.22). What he says is they are "now reconciled...if", i.e. on the condition that they "continue in the faith" (v.23). If they don't continue in the faith, then they are not "now reconciled" & did not "now" have genuine faith.

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in the faith...

 

[DeeR.]

This is not my first rodeo. I have been fighting against Eternal Security for about 7 years now (and the more I do, the more Scripture and the more real world examples I find that completely demolishes it). Even men who are against Eternal Security and a Belief Alone have also shown to believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine these days, as well. When Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that finds it. He was right! I would say about 90% of the time, just when I think somebody is not justifying sin, they are justifying sin in some way. I know the tells. I know the excuses. I know when somebody is justifying sin most of the time. I have been disappointed more times than I care to count.

I have a question for you.

Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes, or no?

Saying this is not your first Rodeo is completely unnecessary as is pointing out your years of experience as a basis for why you feel your are correct. If we are to boast about qualifications that are worldly I could boast that I have literally spent 11 years on this specific topic, have more time studying the scriptures and biblical sources than Doctorate graduates have missioned and lived among hundreds of people for years and spoken to & read & debated with more people than I can count. I have also been on both sides of the issue.... but what should be said about this is that none of that matters at all or holds any weight because the simplest new born in Jesus can receive the truth and have wisdom given by the Spirit the same way as one walking with God for 120 years. All things to my credit and experience are a loss compared to just knowing Him and allowing His wisdom to prevail.
I am not your enemy and neither is the teaching being spoken. I do not want to be right or win and I certainly do not want to offend you or harm you. I would much rather that we take the stance that we be prayerful and no matter how long we have believed a matter or how much we have debated it we can always be open to know we do not know as we should in any matter. It is human nature to believe something and always see & find evidence to support whatever side of the issue we are on. The goal of Jesus though is for us to all be united in 1 mind in truth. So before we seek to defend the truth and a doctrine we should ask ourselves, 'is unity my desire?' I have many times been humbled in tears before God knowing He desired unity among the church pleading with God to humble me more and teach me more that if in any way I could see clearer He would help me to be a vessel more for unity in His truth'.
Of course Jesus was right in whatever He said, that does not justify our interpretations though. Quoting Jesus and saying He was right is not a support to our reasoning of what He said. You say I know I know I know a lot my friend but I do not know as I ought to on any subject like that. I do not know as much as you.
Whether they are men or women (people) for or against an issue, the issue is that they are loved by God first & foremost and we are ambassadors (not originators) of Peace Unity Grace and Love above all else.
I have already answered the question about David.
Lets not argue. Can we rather see we both care about our Father and His will and stop thinking we are on a crusade to defend the truth at all costs. God is the defender and also wants us to trust Him to make all things clear without constant disputes and divisions. We have enemies to fight in the spiritual realm and have spent too much time attacking one another.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"So yes, we are now/presently reconciled if we continue in the faith."

I'm considering a possible OSAS response to that, namely: if they do not "continue in the faith", then they are not "now reconciled" & are therefore not in the faith, nor ever were in the faith. Since according to OSAS one who has been in the faith stays in the faith forever.

It is so odd to me when someone who does not even believe OSAS, tells others what they believe.

So many people here on CF love putting words and theology into other people’s mouths without even asking those who believe that specific belief.

Most people who believe OSAS believe it is CHRIST and His justification of us. Meaning that Christ sustains us in HIS MERCY and HIS sacrifice.

So while you and others are worrying about if mankind can sustain themselves in salvation, we count on God’s promise that He will keep His promises. That Christ giving us the Holy Spirit as a seal that we are heirs of God until the day we receive our full inheritance in eternity.

Glad I was able to correct your error in understanding.

If you have any questions ask me or someone else that has that belief instead of making up things.

 

[MDC]

Correct except that you ignore, or probably are not aware of John 17:6-12. As you read this passage, pay attention to the details. Specifically, note how Judas is compared/contrasted with the other disciples. Note how Judas along with the other disciples was given to Jesus by the Father but yet, Judas was lost. Judas despite being given to Jesus by the Father did not have eternal security did he?

How do you say correct then totally come against what he said. Speaking from both sides of the mouth is a contradiction and confusion in belief. Judas was ordained for such. And not for salvation. This is what you plainly refuse to believe. John 6:39 does not include Judas

 

[Oldmantook]

"So yes, we are now/presently reconciled if we continue in the faith."

I'm considering a possible OSAS response to that, namely: if they do not "continue in the faith", then they are not "now reconciled" & are therefore not in the faith, nor ever were in the faith. Since according to OSAS one who has been in the faith stays in the faith forever.

What i'm wondering about is an OSAS response saying that Paul does not say they "are presently reconciled" (v.22). What he says is they are "now reconciled...if", i.e. on the condition that they "continue in the faith" (v.23). If they don't continue in the faith, then they are not "now reconciled" & did not "now" have genuine faith.

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in the faith...

Sorry but you'll have to reword as I don't quite understand what you're describing. That is precisely the problem with OSAS because they take the a priori position that one who is in the faith stays in the faith forever. Because they believe this, they eisegete verses according to their paradigm instead of exegeting the verses according to what they actually say. If you can reword, perhaps I can better understand your question.

 

[MDC]

This is not my first rodeo. I have been fighting against Eternal Security for about 7 years now (and the more I do, the more Scripture and the more real world examples I find that completely demolishes it). Even men who are against Eternal Security and a Belief Alone have also shown to believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine these days, as well. When Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that finds it. He was right! I would say about 90% of the time, just when I think somebody is not justifying sin, they are justifying sin in some way. I know the tells. I know the excuses. I know when somebody is justifying sin most of the time. I have been disappointed more times than I care to count.

I have a question for you.

Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes, or no?

You fight against eternal life in Christ. That’s eternal security for Gods child. Belief alone as you call it, is resting in Christ alone for salvation. And with no confidence in self whatsoever. This is what you’ve been against Jason and all who follow your beliefs that eternal life isn’t in Christ.. but yet teach eternal life can be lost by lack of self righteous works. I have yet to hear anyone justifying sin on here. But yet since you are well, there’s no need for a dr and is why there’s no mercy or compassion with you or your doctrine

 

[DeeR.]

Does it matter what terms/language I or you use? The only thing that matters is that we wrestle with the scriptures itself as iron sharpens iron. Can always agree to disagree.

It does when on a public forum. If I speak in a language that when others read/hear they are not edified, but only you and me, then I should have private conversations; In the same way that people speaking french on this public forum just takes up space and only benefits one or two.