If Water Baptism Saves, Then Explain What Happened To Me!

[Thess]

If you examine the text in 1 Peter 3:21 closely you will see that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth or that is to not the outward washing of the body but it is an inward work where the conscience has a witness as we are risen with Christ. Conscience is the key word read Hebrews 9 about conscience you will see the conscience could not be made clean by washings (baptism) only by the blood of Christ through the Spirit as Hebrews 9 says also

I think I understand. Are you saying that this inward work only comes through, say the spiritual reality of what happens while immersed in the water?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I think I understand. Are you saying that this inward work only comes through, say the spiritual reality of what happens while immersed in the water?

Hello again, no I'm saying that water baptism has nothing to do with the reality.

We see in 1 Peter 3:21 where Peter says that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (or in other words it is not an outward washing with water of the body). But the saving baptism is an answer (inquiry) of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This word "conscience" is a very important inward witness here and it shows us what baptism Peter is speaking about. We see this in Hebrews 9,

consider,

"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[clearly here water baptism or diverse washings and carnal ordinances can not give an answer to an inquiring conscience, they did not know how to be clean and have a GOOD conscience. The word conscience meaning “with knowledge”. They did not have the knowledge of the final work of Christ complete yet as we do. They did not have the full assurance as we now do by the resurrection of Christ] 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,[this would include baptism and other washings of the old covenant which were shadows and types of the reality the word “washings” here is baptismos] and carnal ordinances, imposed on them [imposed on the JEWS under the old covenant that was fading away ready to vanish and decay] until the time of reformation [until is the key word. These washings and carnal ordinances would continue a time until their conscience was clean. It is not safe to go against ones conscience, and if they were in need of understanding this was coming, but until then they were still practicing the law and old testament ordinances as we see them doing all through Acts. We see Peter in Acts 2 going to the temple, still under the law and old covenant and Jesus said to them that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it until the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. Can you imagine Peter getting up and telling all the Jews that the temple was no more and no more sacrifices or Mosaic law requirements for the entire system. He himself did not understand this and to go against your conscience is not safe. So he was allowed for a time to have the gospel of the circumcision to the Jews. But Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision to the Gentiles. The gospel is the same but how it is applied to each group varied for a time until they were in understanding]]....14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience [this is the inward purging and how we have a good conscience. This is having our hearts sprinkled by the blood. This is to be washed from our sins in his own blood. it is through faith in the blood that we have remission of sins] from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:8-10, 14 KJV)

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

This really is an incredible thing that you've written. I like the style and phrasing. Great job. So I have been thinking about this for hours and hours both last night and most of the day today.

Considering the list of passages and "requirements", as we say, did you find that this teaching above caused any issues in your mind? I ask because I, too, am working on a document (BSOCS) that deals specifically with the essentials of belief in a brochure format. But considering your idea, I am struggling with creating a list of "requirements" for salvation to be met. I can see that, well, if what you're saying is true, this list of both mine and yours would be in error, almost as if a burden to those less informed. I hope this concern of mine made sense. Your thoughts, please? Thank you much.

EDIT:
I answered your question in my second response brother, I misunderstood the question when I wrote this. Sorry if I wasted any of your time.

I believe I understand what you are asking brother, if I am wrong I apologize. And keep in mind what we have already discussed about only being judged by the knowledge you have received as you read.

_____________________________________________________________
Part 1

The way I see it is this. In order to have faith in Christ you must understand:
1. Who he was
2. What he did
3. Why he did it

Out of the understanding that comes from each of these things a person's heart is truly pricked in knowing that God himself became a man and died for sinners and ungodly men and that more specifically he died for them(Ephesians 3:17-19). Without the true understanding of the Lambs sacrifice then true love for God and repentance can't follow after it. After that then comes the desire(out of love) to please and follow the Lamb who died for you(you are now saved by your faith-Ephesians 2:8). That means we follow his commandments(John 14:21,23, Matt 28:20), the first commandment given is for the people who believe to be reborn by being buried with him in death(being dead to your body of sin) in water baptism(Acts 2:37-38, 41; Mark 16:16)

_______________________________________________________
Part 2
(A person is only baptized in water after they have already been saved by faith, water Baptism does not in itself save but is a justification of the person who is already saved. Without faith and the salvation that comes with it then water baptism is useless(Mark 16:16; James 2:22)
1. Water baptism is you showing your true faith and commitment to God by entering the water a Sinner who is dead in his sins(Romans 6:23; Romans 3:23) contained in a body of sin(Romans 7:13-14, 17-18),
2. Choosing to plant yourself into the water in the likeness of Christ's death(Romans 6:5)
4. Burying yourself in the water of Baptism as Christ was buried in the grave during his own death(Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12)
5. And in doing so we crucify our old man with him(Romans 6:6;Galatians 2:20)
6. Being made dead to our sins(Romans 6:10-11; Colossians 2:20)
7. Then just as Christ was raised in Glory as a quickening spirit(1 Peter 3:18;Romans 6:4-5)
8. So to are we raised in his likeness in newness of life(Romans 6:4 )
9. Being quickened with him(Colossians 2:12,13; 1 Peter 3:21; Ephesians 2:1,5)
10. Washing away sin from the inward man and purifying us inwardly(Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21)
11. Making us a holy temple(1 Cor 3:16-17) for the spirit to dwell within(1 Cor 6:19; 1 Cor 3:16-17; 2 Cor 6:16)
12. And as we raise up from the water in the likeness of Christ's Resurrection having put on Christ(Galatians 3:27;Romans 6:5) our inward man and our spirit are now clean from sin(Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 6:11).

So the importance of Water Baptism is:
1. The crucifying or our old man
2. Making us dead to our sins
3. Washing away all sin from the inward man purifying us and making us a clean sanctuary for the Holy spirit to dwell within, it is not the cleansing of the outward body but the inward man because the Spirit of God does not dwell on our outward flesh but it dwells with the inward man(Ephesians 3:16).
4. Through this we are raised in Christ's likeness as a new regenerated man alive in the spirit and dead to sin.
_________________________________________________________
Part 3
Baptism of the Spirit is when the Lord fills us with his Holy spirit(1 Cor 12:13; 2 Cor 6:16-17; Romans 8:9, 15-16 ; Ephesians 4:3-4,30; Ephesians 3:16) and this can happen before, during, or after water baptism(Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-6; Acts 2:37-38, 41; Acts 8:10-19) but if it happens before it can not steadfastly dwell with the person since their body is not a clean vessel/temple(1 Cor 3:16-17; 2 Cor 6:17).

__________________________________________________________
Part 4
If after faith in Christ and repentance comes the person does not Justify themselves also with works(that they are able to perform) then their faith is dead being alone(James 2:14-26; 1 John 3:10,17-24). As we are called to do the Lord's work(1 Cor 15:58; Colossians 3:23-24) and perform what he has commanded us to do(Revelation 14:12; 1 John 2:3-6)
__________________________________________________________
Part 5
Each of these things come from the promises of the Lord:
1. Faith after the Promise of Faith(Isaiah 28:16; Romans 1:17)
2. A new heart after the promise he would remove our stony heart(Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:26; Romans 2:28-29; Acts 15:7-9)
3. Water baptism after the Promise he would wash us of our sins(Ezekiel 36:25; John 3:5)
4. Spiritual Baptism after the Promise he would put his spirit in us(Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:5)
5. The fulfillment of these things will help us to keep his laws and commands(Ezekiel 36:27; Revelation 14:12 )


So do you see then how these things are not a burden unto God's people but a blessing and a fulfillment of the Lord's promises to us?
_________________________________________________________
I hope this was a good enough explanation brother(I apologize ahead of time if some things are out of place or poorly written), I am sure there are more verses I could have used(given enough time to find them) but I want to send this study/response to you now since you have already been waiting so long for my reply.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

This really is an incredible thing that you've written. I like the style and phrasing. Great job. So I have been thinking about this for hours and hours both last night and most of the day today.

Considering the list of passages and "requirements", as we say, did you find that this teaching above caused any issues in your mind? I ask because I, too, am working on a document (BSOCS) that deals specifically with the essentials of belief in a brochure format. But considering your idea, I am struggling with creating a list of "requirements" for salvation to be met. I can see that, well, if what you're saying is true, this list of both mine and yours would be in error, almost as if a burden to those less informed. I hope this concern of mine made sense. Your thoughts, please? Thank you much.

I see what you asking brother(sorry for not seeing it before).
It may seem like a burden at first brother, but think of it this way:
The devil is always moving about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devouer(1 Peter 5:8-9), if we do not go to those who have less truth then the devil will. He will come in the form of false teachers bringing truth mingled with lies and deceive them leading them from the path of righteousness. That is why it is our duty as Christians who hold the full doctrine of Christ to bring it to each and every person regardless of whether or not they have heard of Christ before(as they may not yet hold the full word) so that the devil will not enter into the midst of these people and cause them to drink in waters of damnation(true Gospel mixed with lies). We bring the full Gospel so that they can arm themselves with the full armor of God(Ephesians 6:10-17) and defend against our adversary the devil(Ephesians 6:11). Because without the full gospel their armor is like a coat of mail that is rusted and full of holes and their sword is fragmented and dull, their shield only a buckler, and their feet all but bare. Without the full Gospel brother then these people are ill equipped to defend against lions.

I hope that answers your question brother, you can disregard my other post I thought you were asking a different question.

 

[Thess]

Helol again, no I'm saying that water baptism has nothing to do with the reality.

We see in 1 Peter 3:21 where Peter says that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (or in other words it is not an outward washing with water of the body). But the saving baptism is an answer (inquiry) of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This word "conscience" is a very important inward witness here and it shows us what baptism Peter is speaking about. We see this in Hebrews 9,

consider,

"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[clearly here water baptism or diverse washings and carnal ordinances can not give an answer to an inquiring conscience, they did not know how to be clean and have a GOD conscience. The word conscience meaning with knowledge. They did not have the knowledge of the final work of Christ complete yet as we do. They did not have the full assurance as we now do by the resurrection of Christ] 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,[this would include baptism and other washings of the old covenant which were shadows and types of the reality the word washings here is baptismos] and carnal ordinances, imposed on them [imposed on the JEWS under the covenant] until the time of reformation [until is the key word. These washings and carnal ordinances would continue a time until their conscience was clean. It is not safe to go against ones conscience, and if they were in need of understanding this was coming, but until then they were still practicing the law and old testament ordinances as we see them doing all through Acts. We see Peter in Acts 2 going to the temple, still under the law and old covenant and Jesus said to them that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it until the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. Can you imagine Peter getting up and telling all the Jews that the temple was no more and no more sacrifices or Mosaic law requirements for the entire system. He himself did not understand this and to go against your conscience is not safe. So he was allowed for a time to have the gospel of the circumcision to the Jews. But Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision to the Gentiles. The gospel is the same but how it is applied to each group varied for a time until they were in understanding]]....14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience [this is the inward purging and how we have a good conscience. This is having our hearts sprinkled by the blood. This is to be washed from our sins in his own blood. it is through faith in the blood that we have remission of sins] from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:8-10, 14 KJV)

Great job! I thought, originally, that you were not on my side of the fence, so I was trying to understand. This is the passage used in seminaries to convince people that water has some mystical power that effects salvation, or at least they used to. I was surprised to see this passage come up so late, and NOT to be used against our holding position.

Again, great job and thank you so much for putting the finishing post on this thread. We're done!

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Great question. In hindsight, I am able to see and admit that I never truly believed, but because of my baptism, I had hoped that the nagging voice in my deepest corners of my mind kept telling me, "But you weren't serious about serving Christ....you're worse off than ever before." So I know that I did not receive the Spirit back then. I was needing the affection of my father, whom had baptized my older brother, but my father refused and my Pastor performed the deed. I was terribly disappointed.

It was the Church of Christ. It was a normal church, filled with amazing people, but the gist of it is all the same as churches across the board. All are hypocritical and wouldn't survive the judgement of Paul as He shows in 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians. What's going on in churches today is far worse than what he was dealing with.

So anyway, the only baptism that I have had was bogus, totally bogus. I was a total fake and fraud, proven by the long list of ridiculous sins of mine.

Well, you said what I was going to say after reading through some of the messages so my work here is done. lol. What do you believe now though? Do you believe that God sent His only Son, Jesus, to die for you and your sins? Have you genuinely, since, asked for forgiveness and asked Him to come into your life? If so, you're saved. Baptism didn't do it, baptism can't do it, it has nothing to do with being dunked in a huge tub but everything to do with what you believe in your own heart.

Bro, I did my worst sinning after I was called into ministry. When I first heard an audible voice talking to me though nobody was around me that I knew. I even, years later, left Christianity for Islam and only came back last year but I know that the Bible says in Romans that God can still use me. So, basically, I was saved, had no doubt I was saved, was called into ministry and still sinned terribly. Does this mean I was never called and was never saved? Nope. Just means I'm an imperfect idiot.

As far as CoC goes, I must admit I'm not too familiar with them or their beliefs past the fact that they do not believe in instruments in their worship. Most Restoration Movement denominations, that I'm aware of, does not teach that baptism is required of salvation. Of course, each church could have their own beliefs.

 

[Thess]

Well, you said what I was going to say after reading through some of the messages so my work here is done. lol. What do you believe now though? Do you believe that God sent His only Son, Jesus, to die for you and your sins? Have you genuinely, since, asked for forgiveness and asked Him to come into your life? If so, you're saved. Baptism didn't do it, baptism can't do it, it has nothing to do with being dunked in a huge tub but everything to do with what you believe in your own heart.

Bro, I did my worst sinning after I was called into ministry. When I first heard an audible voice talking to me though nobody was around me that I knew. I even, years later, left Christianity for Islam and only came back last year but I know that the Bible says in Romans that God can still use me. So, basically, I was saved, had no doubt I was saved, was called into ministry and still sinned terribly. Does this mean I was never called and was never saved? Nope. Just means I'm an imperfect idiot.

As far as CoC goes, I must admit I'm not too familiar with them or their beliefs past the fact that they do not believe in instruments in their worship. Most Restoration Movement denominations, that I'm aware of, does not teach that baptism is required of salvation. Of course, each church could have their own beliefs.

Here is an ultra brief description of who I am, written yesterday, here.

"I was about to die in the Arizona desert several years ago, having some sort of evil attack. Aneurism or heart attack was assured. Shorting the story: Filled with a terror that human words cannot express, knowing fully that I was going to die, I called out one name, I called out to my God and He delivered. I mentioned that human words cannot describe the terror I had felt....double that for trying to explain what I had just experienced. I can't, really. I could say so much, here, but the point that needs to be made is that God's Power was so awesome, had He shared more, I would have been harmed in some physical way. This unearthly Power, which I knew was God, announced by a peace and love indescribable, left me trembling with fear. But this is a righteous and holy fear, for I was not afraid that He would harm me, as he JUST saved me! But His Power is so utterly incredible, (of which I only felt equivalent to a flake of His skin), that I find that there is simply NO WAY that I would ever contend with Him. I realized that He could vaporize me in a nanosecond. No problem. Why would I say no to a Power that could not only do that, but JUST saved my life (after I just sacrificed my own life to save another who was threatened with murder by mutilation). No way! This is a God that is real. For I tasted hell as I was under attack, but God is more Powerful!

As soon as I tasted hell, and as soon as I tasted the smallest fleck of God's Power, which nearly altered me, that was it! I was done fighting! From that moment on, I have been slowly getting better and better and better. My sin did not instantly disappear, but wow, I have given up everything so that I could give to those, and work for those who cannot help or defend themselves. I have completely turned, not because I want to receive something, but because God has already given....first on the Cross, and then again in the Arizona desert. I have been a fool, not recognizing the incredible opportunity that I have had. I didn't have to be here! But this Power envisioned each of us, and He liked what He saw, and here we are. That's how Powerful this God is, so who would mess around with that? I cannot go on sinning as I once habitually did."

 

[Thess]

Well, you said what I was going to say after reading through some of the messages so my work here is done. lol. What do you believe now though? Do you believe that God sent His only Son, Jesus, to die for you and your sins? Have you genuinely, since, asked for forgiveness and asked Him to come into your life? If so, you're saved. Baptism didn't do it, baptism can't do it, it has nothing to do with being dunked in a huge tub but everything to do with what you believe in your own heart.

Bro, I did my worst sinning after I was called into ministry. When I first heard an audible voice talking to me though nobody was around me that I knew. I even, years later, left Christianity for Islam and only came back last year but I know that the Bible says in Romans that God can still use me. So, basically, I was saved, had no doubt I was saved, was called into ministry and still sinned terribly. Does this mean I was never called and was never saved? Nope. Just means I'm an imperfect idiot.

As far as CoC goes, I must admit I'm not too familiar with them or their beliefs past the fact that they do not believe in instruments in their worship. Most Restoration Movement denominations, that I'm aware of, does not teach that baptism is required of salvation. Of course, each church could have their own beliefs.

As for your ability to sin as you did, and in light of the Power that I KNOW is God, the God that can vaporize me in a nanosecond....I just cannot fathom turning away from Him. He taught me to understand some very important biblical things well before I began reading His Word after Him immersing me in His Spirit. After that, I began taking the Bible seriously, and what I had learned previously was confirmed in Scriptures. This, in itself, is an incredible miracle and by this alone, I cannot imagine turning away from something so truthful and clear.

That said, Peter actually witnessed all of these major events of Christ, yet he fell astray and pulling Barnabas and many others with him (Galatians 2) , as he fell victim to fear. Peter was reverting back to the law and Paul threw him under the bus for all of earths days to read about. Brutal. So if Peter could fall astray, and we know that he was saved, then....

I hate to leave the story as is, because I don't find much respect for Peter, but it is what it is.

 

[Thess]

Here is something that I am pondering tonight. I just wrote this; perhaps it is for you, for what I wrote about is exactly what you have done, in my opinion, for this is how you are carrying your cross. Great job!!!

Written as if it were Jesus speaking:
"Because of you and your cursed sins, I innocently carried a cross that you are responsible for, and I took your sins upon my shoulders and was nailed to it.

Now I want you to do the same. Because of Adam and his cursed sins upon you (sin nature), you now must innocently carry a cross for which you are not responsible. I want you to pick up this cross, take this sin nature for which Adam has burdened you with and nail it to that cross; kill it! Be dead to your sin so that you may live with me in Paradise!

If you will not turn from your sin, then you cannot be my disciple."

 

[thesunisout]

There will be no arguing on this thread. In this thread, we will exercise maturity, respect and honor. The objective of this thread is to learn, including myself, proven by the fact that I have lain before you some of my most grievous of sins. I do this so that we might learn. Let us be respectful to one another as examples for New Christians.

I was baptized at twelve years old. Literally, just minutes after my baptism, after being welcomed by my church into the “body of Christ”, I promptly walked 1.5 blocks down the road and stole a bag of rubber bands from 7-11. My hair was still wet from my water baptism, and I continued to steal as before baptism.

After baptism, my mother wanted me to do something specific, the task I don’t remember (probably wanting me to go to church.) This discussion was in the garage, so I picked up an ax and began swinging it as I walked towards my mother, telling her that she’d better back off because I wasn’t going to stop swinging or moving forward.

Much later in life and suffering from Alcoholism and Cannabis abuse, I attempted to kidnap an adult that robbed me of $70. The plan was to kidnap him from the streets at gunpoint, knifepoint, razorblade point, tying him up in the car, drive him to the top of Snoqualmie Pass (at night), rob HIM, take everything he had including his clothing and kick him out of our car buck naked, in the mountains about twenty miles from home in the freezing cold temperatures.

I was totally addicted to porn both before and after my marriage. While at the end of my married, I frequented strip clubs, spending an inordinate amount of money that could have been used to get myself some help!

After divorce, I slept with as many as three different women in one week, nearly degrading four women that week.

My alcoholism became so terrible that I could consume the equivalent of 36 cans of Budweiser in a single day. I begged God repeatedly, with tears streaming down my face, that He would heal me, fix me, take this alcoholism away. He refused as I suffered for over two decades with alcohol abuse.

I was so unbelievably difficult that my former wife divorced me, even though I asked three times if there was anything I could do or say to save the marriage. I was so terrible; my former wife didn’t even respond to my pleas.

I didn’t realize it, but I have lived a total life of manipulation. Just about everything about me was so fake and false, and I didn’t even realize it. I was the epitome of a “Wolf in in sheep’s clothing.” But you see, I was BAPTIZED! And we all know that anyone that is baptized is going to heaven, right? So, I wasn’t eternally concerned about my behavior. When ever I read about eternal life, I assumed that I was saved and that reading about Wolves had nothing to do with me. I felt that my baptism protected me from the label of “Wolf” even though I was so much worse than most other “Wolves”.

I believed that once saved, always saved, meaning that all of the sins that I was committing above, I still felt that I was safe and secure in the arms of Jesus. For I, too, also associated water baptism with being saved, meaning that my salvation was always directly linked to getting dunked and wet when I was young.

When I was baptized, the ONLY sin that I mentioned above that I was guilty of, was stealing, swearing etc. So what happened to me? The bible teaches that we will not go on sinning. The Bible talks about turning from sin and sinning no more. It talks about becoming Holy and Righteous. The bible talks about a transformation and learning how to view life in a whole new way (Romans 12:2). When we change and become the best we can be, then we know that we are children of God. Our changed lives prove who we are and where we are eternally headed.

So how is it possible, that after water baptism, which saves, how is it that I could become a complete and total monster, negatively effecting thousands of people throughout my life post baptism?

Water Baptism as a saving factor for salvation has turned Christianity into a total mockery! It causes us to believe that we have been saved all throughout our lives, rendering us to say utterly stupid things such as, “Well, just pray about it”, and, “Confidence is from the Lord”, all the while we live in ways like I describe above because we KNOW NOTHING ABOUT OBEDIENCE. Terrible! These are two very terrible and destructive doctrines to be used as replacements for actually changing and obeying! Those two phrases above guarantee one thing….”DNC” which means “Do Nothing Christians”.

We Christians are the laziest, most hypocritical beasts on the planet, and I suggest that we wake up, get ahold of our rational and reasonable selves and start obeying, snapping out of our slumber. We need to STOP being WOLVES! When Jesus, Stephen and the Apostle Paul all said this same thing, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”, that conceptual prayer applies to each of us in this forum. If you are living the way I describe above, then you ARE the Wolf and you most certainly need to wake up from your slumber, for Christ, Stephen and Paul are describing precisely you. I know it's harsh, but I had to wake up and face these facts about myself.

Or, do you think that you were once like me, feeling that I was "lucky" and “special” to know the "truth" which allowed me to sin freely, and that you don’t have to obey and change? I humbly beg anyone who is reading, to check their hearts. It could be the different between eternal life and death. We must obey, we just must....

Believing you are saved by baptism is cultural Christianity. A lot of this has to do with the influence of Catholicism on society. The bible describes salvation as being by grace alone through faith alone. When Jesus becomes your Lord, you will change. If you don't change at all it is a false conversion.

 

[DennisTate]

There will be no arguing on this thread. In this thread, we will exercise maturity, respect and honor. The objective of this thread is to learn, including myself, proven by the fact that I have lain before you some of my most grievous of sins. I do this so that we might learn. Let us be respectful to one another as examples for New Christians.

I was baptized at twelve years old. Literally, just minutes after my baptism, after being welcomed by my church into the “body of Christ”, I promptly walked 1.5 blocks down the road and stole a bag of rubber bands from 7-11. My hair was still wet from my water baptism, and I continued to steal as before baptism.

After baptism, my mother wanted me to do something specific, the task I don’t remember (probably wanting me to go to church.) This discussion was in the garage, so I picked up an ax and began swinging it as I walked towards my mother, telling her that she’d better back off because I wasn’t going to stop swinging or moving forward.

Much later in life and suffering from Alcoholism and Cannabis abuse, I attempted to kidnap an adult that robbed me of $70. The plan was to kidnap him from the streets at gunpoint, knifepoint, razorblade point, tying him up in the car, drive him to the top of Snoqualmie Pass (at night), rob HIM, take everything he had including his clothing and kick him out of our car buck naked, in the mountains about twenty miles from home in the freezing cold temperatures.

I was totally addicted to porn both before and after my marriage. While at the end of my married, I frequented strip clubs, spending an inordinate amount of money that could have been used to get myself some help!

After divorce, I slept with as many as three different women in one week, nearly degrading four women that week.

My alcoholism became so terrible that I could consume the equivalent of 36 cans of Budweiser in a single day. I begged God repeatedly, with tears streaming down my face, that He would heal me, fix me, take this alcoholism away. He refused as I suffered for over two decades with alcohol abuse.

I was so unbelievably difficult that my former wife divorced me, even though I asked three times if there was anything I could do or say to save the marriage. I was so terrible; my former wife didn’t even respond to my pleas.

I didn’t realize it, but I have lived a total life of manipulation. Just about everything about me was so fake and false, and I didn’t even realize it. I was the epitome of a “Wolf in in sheep’s clothing.” But you see, I was BAPTIZED! And we all know that anyone that is baptized is going to heaven, right? So, I wasn’t eternally concerned about my behavior. When ever I read about eternal life, I assumed that I was saved and that reading about Wolves had nothing to do with me. I felt that my baptism protected me from the label of “Wolf” even though I was so much worse than most other “Wolves”.

I believed that once saved, always saved, meaning that all of the sins that I was committing above, I still felt that I was safe and secure in the arms of Jesus. For I, too, also associated water baptism with being saved, meaning that my salvation was always directly linked to getting dunked and wet when I was young.

When I was baptized, the ONLY sin that I mentioned above that I was guilty of, was stealing, swearing etc. So what happened to me? The bible teaches that we will not go on sinning. The Bible talks about turning from sin and sinning no more. It talks about becoming Holy and Righteous. The bible talks about a transformation and learning how to view life in a whole new way (Romans 12:2). When we change and become the best we can be, then we know that we are children of God. Our changed lives prove who we are and where we are eternally headed.

So how is it possible, that after water baptism, which saves, how is it that I could become a complete and total monster, negatively effecting thousands of people throughout my life post baptism?

Water Baptism as a saving factor for salvation has turned Christianity into a total mockery! It causes us to believe that we have been saved all throughout our lives, rendering us to say utterly stupid things such as, “Well, just pray about it”, and, “Confidence is from the Lord”, all the while we live in ways like I describe above because we KNOW NOTHING ABOUT OBEDIENCE. Terrible! These are two very terrible and destructive doctrines to be used as replacements for actually changing and obeying! Those two phrases above guarantee one thing….”DNC” which means “Do Nothing Christians”.

We Christians are the laziest, most hypocritical beasts on the planet, and I suggest that we wake up, get ahold of our rational and reasonable selves and start obeying, snapping out of our slumber. We need to STOP being WOLVES! When Jesus, Stephen and the Apostle Paul all said this same thing, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”, that conceptual prayer applies to each of us in this forum. If you are living the way I describe above, then you ARE the Wolf and you most certainly need to wake up from your slumber, for Christ, Stephen and Paul are describing precisely you. I know it's harsh, but I had to wake up and face these facts about myself.

Or, do you think that you were once like me, feeling that I was "lucky" and “special” to know the "truth" which allowed me to sin freely, and that you don’t have to obey and change? I humbly beg anyone who is reading, to check their hearts. It could be the different between eternal life and death. We must obey, we just must....

Thank you for your openess and honesty. I think that you will find the testimony of Todd White encouraging.

 

[DennisTate]

I would also highly recommend the near death experience account of former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. d.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

 

[DeeR.]

There will be no arguing on this thread. In this thread, we will exercise maturity, respect and honor. The objective of this thread is to learn, including myself, proven by the fact that I have lain before you some of my most grievous of sins. I do this so that we might learn. Let us be respectful to one another as examples for New Christians.

I was baptized at twelve years old. Literally, just minutes after my baptism, after being welcomed by my church into the “body of Christ”, I promptly walked 1.5 blocks down the road and stole a bag of rubber bands from 7-11. My hair was still wet from my water baptism, and I continued to steal as before baptism.

After baptism, my mother wanted me to do something specific, the task I don’t remember (probably wanting me to go to church.) This discussion was in the garage, so I picked up an ax and began swinging it as I walked towards my mother, telling her that she’d better back off because I wasn’t going to stop swinging or moving forward.

Much later in life and suffering from Alcoholism and Cannabis abuse, I attempted to kidnap an adult that robbed me of $70. The plan was to kidnap him from the streets at gunpoint, knifepoint, razorblade point, tying him up in the car, drive him to the top of Snoqualmie Pass (at night), rob HIM, take everything he had including his clothing and kick him out of our car buck naked, in the mountains about twenty miles from home in the freezing cold temperatures.

I was totally addicted to porn both before and after my marriage. While at the end of my married, I frequented strip clubs, spending an inordinate amount of money that could have been used to get myself some help!

After divorce, I slept with as many as three different women in one week, nearly degrading four women that week.

My alcoholism became so terrible that I could consume the equivalent of 36 cans of Budweiser in a single day. I begged God repeatedly, with tears streaming down my face, that He would heal me, fix me, take this alcoholism away. He refused as I suffered for over two decades with alcohol abuse.

I was so unbelievably difficult that my former wife divorced me, even though I asked three times if there was anything I could do or say to save the marriage. I was so terrible; my former wife didn’t even respond to my pleas.

I didn’t realize it, but I have lived a total life of manipulation. Just about everything about me was so fake and false, and I didn’t even realize it. I was the epitome of a “Wolf in in sheep’s clothing.” But you see, I was BAPTIZED! And we all know that anyone that is baptized is going to heaven, right? So, I wasn’t eternally concerned about my behavior. When ever I read about eternal life, I assumed that I was saved and that reading about Wolves had nothing to do with me. I felt that my baptism protected me from the label of “Wolf” even though I was so much worse than most other “Wolves”.

I believed that once saved, always saved, meaning that all of the sins that I was committing above, I still felt that I was safe and secure in the arms of Jesus. For I, too, also associated water baptism with being saved, meaning that my salvation was always directly linked to getting dunked and wet when I was young.

When I was baptized, the ONLY sin that I mentioned above that I was guilty of, was stealing, swearing etc. So what happened to me? The bible teaches that we will not go on sinning. The Bible talks about turning from sin and sinning no more. It talks about becoming Holy and Righteous. The bible talks about a transformation and learning how to view life in a whole new way (Romans 12:2). When we change and become the best we can be, then we know that we are children of God. Our changed lives prove who we are and where we are eternally headed.

So how is it possible, that after water baptism, which saves, how is it that I could become a complete and total monster, negatively effecting thousands of people throughout my life post baptism?

Water Baptism as a saving factor for salvation has turned Christianity into a total mockery! It causes us to believe that we have been saved all throughout our lives, rendering us to say utterly stupid things such as, “Well, just pray about it”, and, “Confidence is from the Lord”, all the while we live in ways like I describe above because we KNOW NOTHING ABOUT OBEDIENCE. Terrible! These are two very terrible and destructive doctrines to be used as replacements for actually changing and obeying! Those two phrases above guarantee one thing….”DNC” which means “Do Nothing Christians”.

We Christians are the laziest, most hypocritical beasts on the planet, and I suggest that we wake up, get ahold of our rational and reasonable selves and start obeying, snapping out of our slumber. We need to STOP being WOLVES! When Jesus, Stephen and the Apostle Paul all said this same thing, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”, that conceptual prayer applies to each of us in this forum. If you are living the way I describe above, then you ARE the Wolf and you most certainly need to wake up from your slumber, for Christ, Stephen and Paul are describing precisely you. I know it's harsh, but I had to wake up and face these facts about myself.

Or, do you think that you were once like me, feeling that I was "lucky" and “special” to know the "truth" which allowed me to sin freely, and that you don’t have to obey and change? I humbly beg anyone who is reading, to check their hearts. It could be the different between eternal life and death. We must obey, we just must....

Hello. As we know, nothing done by the hands of man or nothing outward can save. It is The work of the Spirit/Christ alone that saves and is received with the heart and the overflow of the heart (confess and deeds that come from christ through the heart of the saved). It is not by water that cleanses the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God done by the hands of the Spirit & not the hands of men that saves us (So no one can boast and say/think it is our deeds or anything we have done or can do). Not the rituals, cleansings, or washing of the body done by the temporary physical world. Those are all fading and dying rules/acts meant to lead us to and teach us greater lasting things done by the Eternal Spirit in the renewed heart/spirit. Paul was quick to lay aside the outward teaching in the physical when it harmed or caused confusion (when the outward/temporary teaching is misunderstood/misapplied it is yielded to the greater eternal truth (1 Corinthian 1:10-17).
Jesus often got frustrated because people would get caught up in the physical examples and not understand the greater meaning that really mattered. He spoke of being Born a second time (not physically), of eating His Body and Drinking His blood continually ( not literally or physically but in reality & Spirirt), of Washing one another's feet ( not physically but daily and in Spirit & in Truth -- the kind of worship & obedience God truly looks for) and also by being baptized and with an act that The Word & Spirit alone can perform spoken and given through the Spirit of believers, not worldly temporal ingredients ( 1 Peter 3:18-22 ; Hebrews 9:13-14) All of Hebrews leads us to this meaning to see all of this, in fact all of Jesus' teachings.
Obedience is not with deeds we can do, but to believe & allow His Works to flow through the new heart. His obedience & works are in Spirit & in Truth and never mere rituals or outward. Baptism is a receiving through the Heart & confession from the overflow of receiving Jesus & His works by the Spirit. Use the rituals and temporary as long as they aid the greater teaching/truth but do not feel they are the obedience or essential of the message. They are just tools and not the reality themselves.

 

[Thess]

Believing you are saved by baptism is cultural Christianity. A lot of this has to do with the influence of Catholicism on society. The bible describes salvation as being by grace alone through faith alone. When Jesus becomes your Lord, you will change. If you don't change at all it is a false conversion.

Great job! You "got" my entire point. Thanks for contributing.

 

[Thess]

Thank you for your openess and honesty. I think that you will find the testimony of Todd White encouraging.

Thank you! I didn't do a very good job, but my point was to expose the idea that our salvation is directly linked to liquid water. If we honestly look at our lives and the quality thereof, I think that we can each make a logical conclusion on the subject.

 

[Thess]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Paul's saying that he (paraphrasing) "didn't come to baptize". Another of his quotes would be that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Linking that with Mark 1:8 makes sense. Old baptism was with water ("I didn't come to baptize") and then turns around and says there is "One baptism" (new baptism of the Holy Spirit in Mark 1:8).

Paul's mission was always "to save some". Always. Yet he didn't come to baptize. That is nearly a shocking thing to say, let alone suggest. Yet it makes sense. In 1st Corinthians, Paul deals with certain individuals who seem to be baptizing in the names of even Paul himself, and not the name of our God. He was so frustrated with the confusion that he finally stated that he was "glad that he didn't baptize...." Imagine that? Instead, he said that he came to preach. How frustrating it must have been to see, all too often, church's just falling astray and not getting it. One thing would straiten it all out. Obedience to all of the commands.

If we would obey, we could actually love somebody.

 

[DeeR.]

Believing you are saved by baptism is cultural Christianity. A lot of this has to do with the influence of Catholicism on society. The bible describes salvation as being by grace alone through faith alone. When Jesus becomes your Lord, you will change. If you don't change at all it is a false conversion.

It is not from just one specific group or religion. It is from many places and has many contributors. Needing to have physical water and believing it is the essential in what Jesus is teaching is as old as the scriptures. Even Paul admonished in 1 Corinthians 1 and in Hebrews and 1 Peter 3 the church and people of the day were needing to still be taught between earthly and spiritual things. One group is not responsible for all of our failures and should not be singled out or targeted. We have all been responsible for not seeing things maturely but in a temporal way.
Just as eating and drinking His flesh & blood, washing one another's feet, being born a 2nd time and other outward symbols of greater truths to be experienced can be taken literally while we know there are greater meanings behind them, that does not mean we should pass individual judgements on Nicodemus for not seeing the full meaning or the Apostles for wanting the Gentiles to follow outward rituals before Paul confronted them on needing to believe being the criteria.

 

[DeeR.]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Paul's saying that he (paraphrasing) "didn't come to baptize". Another of his quotes would be that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Linking that with Mark 1:8 makes sense. Old baptism was with water ("I didn't come to baptize") and then turns around and says there is "One baptism" (new baptism of the Holy Spirit in Mark 1:8).

Paul's mission was always "to save some". Always. Yet he didn't come to baptize. That is nearly a shocking thing to say, let alone suggest. Yet it makes sense. In 1st Corinthians, Paul deals with certain individuals who seem to be baptizing in the names of even Paul himself, and not the name of our God. He was so frustrated with the confusion that he finally stated that he was "glad that he didn't baptize...." Imagine that? Instead, he said that he came to preach. How frustrating it must have been to see, all too often, church's just falling astray and not getting it. One thing would straiten it all out. Obedience to all of the commands.

If we would obey, we could actually love somebody.

I mentioned that above

 

[Thess]

It is not from just one specific group or religion. It is from many places and has many contributors. Needing to have physical water and believing it is the essential in what Jesus is teaching is as old as the scriptures. Even Paul admonished in 1 Corinthians 1 and in Hebrews and 1 Peter 3 the church and people of the day were needing to still be taught between earthly and spiritual things. One group is not responsible for all of our failures and should not be singled out or targeted. We have all been responsible for not seeing things maturely but in a temporal way.
Just as eating and drinking His flesh & blood, washing one another's feet, being born a 2nd time and other outward symbols of greater truths to be experienced can be taken literally while we know there are greater meanings behind them, that does not mean we should pass individual judgements on Nicodemus for not seeing the full meaning or the Apostles for wanting the Gentiles to follow outward rituals before Paul confronted them on needing to believe being the criteria.

Hmmm....I read things differently from yourself, I guess. I don't see anything wrong with what your response deals with. I thought it was really good.

 

[DeeR.]

Hmmm....I read things differently from yourself, I guess. I don't see anything wrong with what your response deals with. I thought it was really good.

Yes I am meaning that Catholics are not responsible for all things wrong about Baptisms and should not be collectively labelled. It can cause hate groups and prejudices against members of a group when we do not simply speak directly about the teachings but rather single someone or group out over a subject like this. I know Christians who are Catholic and if I disagree or agree with them it is one on one. Responsibility for the teachings about water saving is as old as the bible.