2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe that Jesus wasn’t referring to people?

Are you really serious with your questions?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Pretty obvious that He was. And note the comparison to a withered branch.

Everything in red refers to people who were at one time “in Him”.

How would you prove that they were "at one time in Him"? I mean, other than just your say-so and opinion.

I see now why your theology is so twisted.

How come you've never been able to explain how it is? And how come you've never proven your opinion that a saved person CAN perish, when Jesus said recipients of eternal life (saved people) SHALL NEVER PERISH. Hmm?

You simply just pick out what you want to hear, and explain away the rest of Jesus’ doctrine.
JLB

You waste time and typing by using the word "away". I explain what Jesus said.

But you are unable to do that. Or you would have.

You make a ton of assumptions but prove nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Will the branch that is disconnected from the vine continue to have life apart from the vine?

Do branches that are disconnected from the vine and are cast into the fire and burned, continue to live?

How do you not understand that if Jesus really meant that those who don't bear fruit will burn in hell, He wouldn't have used a metaphor to communicate that fact, but instead would have just said so plainly.

One thing that is far from plain is how to understand metaphors. They can be rtaken any number of ways.

So, if a believer who doesn't bear fruit goes to hell, that's all that Jesus would have needed to say, to make the point crystal clear.

But because He used a metaphor, it's clear that He couldn't have meant that.

And, not that you've ever noticed, but if He did mean what you want Him to mean, then He contradicted Himself back in John 10:28, where He was real clear about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING.

Anyone who thinks through the implication of all this see it easily.

 

[JLB777]

Are you really serious with your questions?


Pretty obvious that He was. And note the comparison to a withered branch.


How would you prove that they were "at one time in Him"? I mean, other than just your say-so and opinion.

Because Jesus plainly said so.

How can a branch grow that was never “in” the vine?


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abide simply means remain.

Continue to remain connected.


You will have to do better than trying to “redefine” the English language in order to explain away the plain teachings of Jesus Christ.

LOL!!!!


You seem to be the only one who doesn’t understand what Jesus so plainly taught.


Here is how we abide, remain, continue to be connected to Him who is our life; our eternal life.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

How do you not understand that if Jesus really meant that those who don't bear fruit will burn in hell, He wouldn't have used a metaphor to communicate that fact, but instead would have just said so plainly

The point here is not will people go to hell or not, but not being part of Jesus.
Imagine this. We are a people who love, honour and worship our King. We lift up all He is and all He stands for, we desire truth, honesty and love to prosper. Our desire is to be part of His people and to walk in His will.

So the warning is if we claim to abide in the vine, yet do not bear the fruit of the vine, we are dried up branches and our hearts desire will not be fulfilled. Rather we will be discarded and burnt up.

If as a believer who knows Jesus as their Lord, does not feel deeply wounded by such an idea, I would suggest you are not actually in the vine. Why did Jesus mention this? So that those who think they know the Lord might repent and open up their hearts to Him, the King, so that He might heal and forgive them, and lead them to life.

 

[LightLoveHope]

The problem Jesus had with the pharisees is their hearts were far from Him.
If one is discussing an issue with a closed heart to love, full of greed and self indulgence, there is little chance of a righteous focus that can be achieved, because all they are thinking about is winning an argument and their status, as they see it.

Many read about the plank in ones own eye to find the speck in another.
The plank Jesus is talking about is an unclean heart, full of greed and self indulgence.
Our culture today is unfortunately full of such things. It is very easy to be a christian as a part time proposition while living an easy life with no risk. Or to work ones way up to a position of respect and influence while not actually working through the basic principles in ones heart. Such were the pharisees, and as we are religious folk, it is easy to fall into their failures.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because Jesus plainly said so.

Really? By using metaphors, He was plainly speaking? That's why you are so far in error. You don't even know the difference between plain speaking and metaphors.

John 10:28 is where Jesus spoke plainly about eternal security, but you don't believe Him.

How can a branch grow that was never “in” the vine?

How does this even relate to John 15. If a branch was never in a vine, it can't be a branch. Everyone knows that. Your question is ridiculous.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abide simply means remain.

The context is about reciprocal abiding. So explain what Jesus meant by "if I abide in you".

Continue to remain connected.

Or, continue in fellowship.

You will have to do better than trying to “redefine” the English language in order to explain away the plain teachings of Jesus Christ.

You will have to do MUCH BETTER than to blatantly disregard and reject the plain words of Jesus that recipients of eternal life (saved people) shall never perish.

Here is how we abide, remain, continue to be connected to Him who is our life; our eternal life.

Well, Jesus disagrees with your opinion. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your crazy claim is that recipients of eternal life MUST REMAIN in the vine to never perish. even though Jesus never said any such thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The point here is not will people go to hell or not, but not being part of Jesus.

Don't you know this is the same point?

Those who are a part of Jesus will never go to hell, and those who are not a part of Jesus will never go to heaven.

Imagine this. We are a people who love, honour and worship our King. We lift up all He is and all He stands for, we desire truth, honesty and love to prosper. Our desire is to be part of His people and to walk in His will.

So the warning is if we claim to abide in the vine, yet do not bear the fruit of the vine, we are dried up branches and our hearts desire will not be fulfilled. Rather we will be discarded and burnt up.

What you fail to grasp is that Jesus was speaking to Jews, who were quite proud of being God's "chosen people" (they still are). His metaphor to them was about being discarded from service, not going to hell, as you'd prefer.

If as a believer who knows Jesus as their Lord, does not feel deeply wounded by such an idea, I would suggest you are not actually in the vine.

Your suggestions are baseless.

 

[JLB777]

Really? By using metaphors, He was plainly speaking? That's why you are so far in error. You don't even know the difference between plain speaking and metaphors.

• If anyone does not abide in Me,

Everyone else understands what Jesus so plainly said.

• gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abide simply means remain.

Continue to remain connected.


You will have to do better than trying to “redefine” the English language in order to explain away the plain teachings of Jesus Christ.

LOL!!!!


You seem to be the only one who doesn’t understand what Jesus so plainly taught.


Here is how we abide, remain, continue to be connected to Him who is our life; our eternal life.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your suggestions are baseless.

Hi Free,

Not sure it helps your argument. Your proposition is Jesus was talking to the Jews so it only applies to the jews. Pauls argument is because the Jews failed we have been grafted into the people of God through Jesus. If we are now the people of God, it applies to us as well.

I remember when a believer who apparently appeared to know Jesus said I was not a believer, I was hurt. The reason I was hurt was because I respected them, and desired acceptance as we both followed Jesus. What has dawned to me, is being able to establish what the fruit is in someones life, and how certain things might upset them for specific reasons.

I suppose my thought analogy is someone in a big house. Most of the house has locked doors except for this one room in which this person dwells. There are lots of noises from somewhere and things can get quite worrying, but everyone just dwells in this one room and that is all there is.

Another person lives in a house with many rooms and can move all over the house, and though some things do surprise them, they can understand what is going on and put it right.

Only the person who knows the many rooms and how to travel actually sees the truth, while the other party just accuses them of lying about how much room they have and what they can do.

Abiding in Christ, is listening to Him and obeying Him. This is how Jesus described it,

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love"
John 15:7-10

Jesus links remaining in Him to His words remaining in us. He then extends this to obeying His commands.

One sign that people have no fruit is their inability to love and obey. For centuries believers have called these people superficial believers or skin believers, no reality only words. They will always exist because like seed thrown on the path, it can be recognised as seed and good, but nothing is done with it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

A conundrum

If a believer believes they must believe in eternal security or they have lost their faith and will be sent to hell, they are not going to listen to arguments that suggest our security is in the cross and the love expressed there, so massive and extraordinary, we have all the security we need to listen, obey and follow. To deny the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit, and still have the power of God, would be a denial of who Jesus is and His way of working with man.

A deception is involved here. If you believe Christ is your security, and once grasped can never be lost, there is no risk investigating other views, because what you have can never be lost.

This is the lie. They do not believe it can never be lost, in fact they behave like they are saved only if they believe it can never be lost, and the enemy are those suggesting any other alternative.

The evil they project on their opposition is they are keeping the chosen from the Kingdom, except that is also impossible, because the chosen were known from before time began.

There views are so contradictatory they are hiding their true motivation. Bitterness over some believers from their past, and the desire to convert the legalists to faith.

There is one fly in their ointment. Jesus called us to listen and obey, as well as Paul, Peter, James and John, to walk in love, to be blameless, holy, a light on a hill, a people called by His name, a fragrant offering of praise. Maybe their own honesty of their failure is the testimony that they have not entered in, rather than claiming others who they do not know, have failed, all because of a view of what security in Christ is. But with a closed heart, unable to love, how would they know what knowing Christ actually is?

 

[Gr8Grace]

This may help you in your debate with a few here FreeGrace.

~~The creation and rehabilitation of psycho Christians~~

http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/rehab.pdf

“The cause of considerable self-induced misery for Christians is not being able to apply doctrinal principles to experiences in daily life.” - R.B. Thieme, Jr.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This may help you in your debate with a few here FreeGrace.

~~The creation and rehabilitation of psycho Christians~~

http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/rehab.pdf

“The cause of considerable self-induced misery for Christians is not being able to apply doctrinal principles to experiences in daily life.” - R.B. Thieme, Jr.

Looks like an interesting book.
Here is a man who desires to see sin put in its proper context.

The mistake made by those who ignore and repress their emotions, is emotions are just signposts. They need to be listened to. The dumb thing is to then say, by listening to them you must follow them. That is not what they are. They are just a summary of how things are inside.

If one is tired, worn out, you take rest. If you are raring to go, and any challenge is not big enough, then throwing yourself into a new situation is probably not a bad idea. If someone says something that hurts you, finding out why it hurt, helps you resolve maybe you were looking or hoping for the wrong things. Too many times I thought I knew how I came across, not seeing that the responses I got often were because of my own approach. I could change my approach. I could change what I hoped for.

In Jesus, we hope that He will just make it all alright. Look to Him and the magic wand will straighten it all out. The problem is Jesus was a behaviourlist. He expects us to change by doing and taking a different approach. We can choose to be meek or load and abrasive. We can choose to put only our needs first or seek to serve others. By choosing the way of Christ, lots of things change, but standing still and doing nothing just leaves the mess the world has made and is a denial of faith and repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

• If anyone does not abide in Me,

Everyone else understands what Jesus so plainly said.

• gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abide simply means remain.

Continue to remain connected.


You will have to do better than trying to “redefine” the English language in order to explain away the plain teachings of Jesus Christ.

LOL!!!!


You seem to be the only one who doesn’t understand what Jesus so plainly taught.


Here is how we abide, remain, continue to be connected to Him who is our life; our eternal life.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

All of this repetitious silliness gets you nowhere. You've been given an explanation.

Now your challenge is to take up my points and prove them wrong.

Which I know you cannot do. Or you'd have done that already.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

Not sure it helps your argument. Your proposition is Jesus was talking to the Jews so it only applies to the jews.

No offense meant, but are you really that dense? Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews; who else? And my argument is way more valid than your failure to understand the agricultural metaphor that Jesus used.

And why don't you realize that because of what Jesus taught in John 10:28, He couldn't have meant that believers can go to hell?

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love"
John 15:7-10

Apparently you don't seem to realize that abiding is a reciprocal relationship, which is about fellowship. If you offend your wife, how's the fellowship going between you?

Obviously, it isn't. Same in our relationship with Christ. Just as the marriage relationship in God's economy is PERMANENT, so is the believer's relationship to God in Christ. So, what changes between spouses and between God and believers is about fellowship, NEVER about ending the relationship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A deception is involved here. If you believe Christ is your security, and once grasped can never be lost, there is no risk investigating other views, because what you have can never be lost.

This is the lie.

What in the world are you talking about? It it is a "lie" to "believe Christ is your security", then what, exactly (specifically) is your security IN? Please answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This may help you in your debate with a few here FreeGrace.

~~The creation and rehabilitation of psycho Christians~~

http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/rehab.pdf

“The cause of considerable self-induced misery for Christians is not being able to apply doctrinal principles to experiences in daily life.” - R.B. Thieme, Jr.

Thanks! The problem here, though, is that we're dealing with "psycho Christians".

And, as most everyone knows, psycho's can't be reasoned with. They sense of reality is way off course. Which is what we see with Christians who directly contradict the most clear Scripture in the Bible. That's what's psycho.

They won't get help until they realize that they are the ones off course and unbiblical.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No offense meant, but are you really that dense?

My friend. If you cannot see another persons perspective and you think it is a question of intelligence, then you are very blinkered in your thinking. You claim to be thoughts and not emotions, yet you continually use emotional language like suggesting I am dense.

And it is you unfortunately who are suggesting the relationship with Jesus is not reciprocal.
Jesus loves you, and accepts any faith position, if at some point meets the magical formula.
But there is nothing in scripture that gives you this assurance. Claiming a promise given to His sheep means it applies to everyone who appears to be His sheep at some point is absurd. This is a heaven of hypocrites and false speakers, who betray their very words of love and faithfulness and walk in the world like they belong there. Their end will be sealed.

You claim you listen alone to Jesus's words, yet you are not listening to all of them.

It is a trick to say, when Jesus says obey, love like I have loved, be a follower and a listener, that He did not mean that for us who call Him Lord. When you pray, "May your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" do you add, not now but when you come back.

Fake security is no security at all. And if one listens only to some of what Jesus says one is not His sheep and has no heart for who He is and who He desires us to be.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What in the world are you talking about? It it is a "lie" to "believe Christ is your security", then what, exactly (specifically) is your security IN? Please answer.

If Christ is ones security, you have to follow and obey or it is for nothing.

The gnostic gospel separated out the spiritual from the physical, or behaviour from ideas and hopes.
The idea was the body was responsible for sin, while ones eternal spirit was perfect and pure.

By doing this you create a split personality, it is not me who is sinning it is just my body.
It abdicates the believer from sorting out their hearts and behaviour and creates the religious conformity without the reality.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How do you change a world view?
The assumptions that pin down ones security in the world view are shaken.
If one claims no matter how bad my conscience or behaviour, no matter how many people I murder or abuse I am safe in Christ, you are certifiably insane and are not part of the body.

To show how insane some are rooted in this concept, they actually agreed that yes a serial killer who at some point had confessed faith would be saved, no matter how lost they were at point of death.

This is the magic ticket theology. Its foundations are gnostic, and come from a defeat to resolve behavioural problems which they find or feel cannot be sorted out, so Jesus must accept them despite everything. The closest verse that supports this in part is this one

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
1 John 5:16-17

A psychopath is someone who has no empathy or conscience. A psycho christian in this context is one who believes in counselling that resolves internal emotional trauma, and internal analysis to resolve this.

I do not believe analysis is helpful, but I do believe obedience and learning to love remakes us and removes the trauma and memories that can bind us. So unfortunately these believers know too little about the subject they are trying to use.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Looks like an interesting book.

It really is interesting. And FreeGrace has mentioned some of the exact principles the book lays out.

The mistake made by those who ignore and repress their emotions, is emotions are just signposts. They need to be listened to.

Here is an interesting quote from the book:

Emotionalism is a condition of natural and perpetual distraction, which prevents a person from appreciating any other idea than the one which actually occupies their mind. It is characterized by those who are excessively emotional, whose emotions are readily modified by trifling influences, i.e., whose god is their emotions. Objective mental activity is drastically lowered in emotionalism. Emotional stress disorganizes the mental synthesis, modifies the psychological tension, and induces mental conditions in which dissociation and the isolated development of the lower grade tendencies (operations of the sin nature) are very apt to ensue. The essence of an attack of depression is that the emotions for the time have lost enduring relation to current experience, and whatever their origin and integrity, they have achieved a sort of autonomy from objective thinking, i.e. emotional revolt of the soul.
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