Masturbation as a Sin (A Different Approach)

[Chris V++]

This has been an interesting (and timely) study thread for me. One user way back mentioned he committed something akin to spiritual suicide by excessive M. I've heard pastors preach about ' grieving the Holy Spirit' which sounds like what that member may have been doing.
In economics class I remember learning about the law of diminishing returns. The professor summed it up as '1 cookie - good, 10 cookies, bad. Sort of like the Greek idea of Nothing in Excess. Men are known to have involuntary erections and nocturnal emissions, which seem like the body's way of trying to eliminate what it needs to have eliminated, so it's a challenge for me to believe that God crafted us in such a way that our own flesh will continually try to condemn us by compelling us to take measures to eliminate something that our own bodies are mechanically striving to eliminate even while we sleep. I do understand how it can be addictive and can lead to sinful lust in various contexts, and can be performed in a sinful manner. I'm just wondering if in the abstract the act itself is inherently sinful. To me the prior comment about the ceremonial uncleanliness of the act as compared to the ceremonial uncleanliness of menstruation rang true, so Leviticus to me doesn't really seem to condemn the act, at least not vehemently.

 

[salt-n-light]

This has been an interesting (and timely) study thread for me. One user way back mentioned he committed something akin to spiritual suicide by excessive M. I've heard pastors preach about ' grieving the Holy Spirit' which sounds like what that member may have been doing.
In economics class I remember learning about the law of diminishing returns. The professor summed it up as '1 cookie - good, 10 cookies, bad. Sort of like the Greek idea of Nothing in Excess. Men are known to have involuntary erections and nocturnal emissions, which seem like the body's way of trying to eliminate what it needs to have eliminated, so it's a challenge for me to believe that God crafted us in such a way that our own flesh will continually try to condemn us by compelling us to take measures to eliminate something that our own bodies are mechanically striving to eliminate even while we sleep. I do understand how it can be addictive and can lead to sinful lust in various contexts, and can be performed in a sinful manner. I'm just wondering if in the abstract the act itself is inherently sinful. To me the prior comment about the ceremonial uncleanliness of the act as compared to the ceremonial uncleanliness of menstruation rang true, so Leviticus to me doesn't really seem to condemn the act, at least not vehemently.

Masturbation is a specific way of touching your own self, so it's not something someone can easily deconstruct, its coupled with intent and motivation. Its what makes masturbation, masturbation, and not a touch as with someone washing their own body, or itching. There's no context then that its possible for masturbation to be something plausible nor something to be advocated because the intent and motivation behind masturbation are sinful.

 

[ColdSummer]

I’m not going to entertain what you just said.

Because it convicts you of contradicting yourself. On one hand you agree that people should take proper care of their bodies, but since your own, completely personal feeling tells that that touching one self is 'ew' you brutally try to force it to your spiritual opinion, but completely neglect other cases of one caring for their bodies properly. Or do you also happen to believe you have a an ultimate truth to how people should take care for their bodies? What's the ideal ammount of exercise, what's the ideal diet, how many hours a night people should sleep?

God is the truth, the way, and the light. My wish is that everyone are on the same path towards God, no matter what stage or struggles they have. And they can because God grants us power to overcome this flesh. I’m living proof of that. That’s what I advocate for.

And I already know you’re taking scriptural reference out of context for the sake of making a point.So not gonna entertain that either.

That's a lot of fancy words, but it's also a bit naive. Everyone is different. You can't throw everyone in the same bucket, it's called ignorancy. Here's a verse for you:

(Matthew 7:3)

The heart is desperately wicked, which man can know it for theirselves? Which person can truly say that their conscience is dependable? Of pure intent and justness? Where in the Word did God apply us to lean on our own understanding?

You said it yourself! Which man can know it for theirselves? How dare YOU to be the judge?

Again and again and again and again and again. You seem to have a patent for the truth.

You always seem to avoid the important question. But I want you to answer the following: you have quoted (1 Corinthians 6:18) before.

Based on exactly what do you claim it to talk about a physical act of masturbation?

 

[dayhiker]

I've spent some time reading this thread.
Its amazing to me that one can take an action that isn't talked about in the Bible and make it a sin. Well it is OK to do that for yourself, but to do that to others places one in a pretty dangerous place in my mind.
Jesus address this very idea to the Pharisees! Lk.11 and Mt.23 ... those were the harshest words Jesus had to say.
Then we have Dt. and Rev. speak pretty strongly to those who add to the word and those who subtract from it.

 

[Jenniferdiana]

lol you guys are funny. look obviously someone of you are defending the reasons why masturbation isnt a sin..just admit it.. because you do it because you want to do it because you like doing it..so quit trying to justify your actions..to those who want to do it and doesnt think its a sin..then do it and stop arguing about it..gosh...because you obviously aint going to never agree or come to terms with the fact that it isnt or is a sin..and vice versa

and those who dont do it, who think it is wrong, that is ok, as long as you think its wrong and is not doing it, dont worry about them who likes doing it and doesnt think it is wrong...but its so obvious because the offense is there to see that those who like it does it and those who dont like it doesnt in here..

personally i think its something i did and i dont want to do anymore because it seems contradicting to God's holiness character and the holy spirit. and to me it seems like an offense not only to God but myself. we can be unclean in many areas but in this one the bible says we are Gods temple. And since its God temple, that would seem also unclean because God is Holy you cows and itt seems weird to do that in his spirit. lol

oh and its called...self-control...

 

[FredVB]

Because it convicts you of contradicting yourself. On one hand you agree that people should take proper care of their bodies, but since your own, completely personal feeling tells that that touching one self is 'ew' you brutally try to force it to your spiritual opinion, but completely neglect other cases of one caring for their bodies properly. Or do you also happen to believe you have a an ultimate truth to how people should take care for their bodies? What's the ideal ammount of exercise, what's the ideal diet, how many hours a night people should sleep?

Everyone is different. You can't throw everyone in the same bucket, it's called ignorancy. Here's a verse for you:
Matthew 7:3

I do know about what would be the ideal diet for us, and also there is exercise that is more or less good for us, depending on ability and on limitations. But there is good perspective shown with this, there are benefits to human bodies with release with masturbation. The compulsiveness that may happen is not good though. Scriptures show all sorts of things are wrong, including things I and almost any of you would never do anyway, so a common practice, then about as much as now would be shown to be wrong if it was. Masturbation isn't shown to be wrong, but acting with lust is. Can it be without lust is the question.

 

[salt-n-light]

I do know about what would be the ideal diet for us, and also there is exercise that is more or less good for us, depending on ability and on limitations. But there is good perspective shown with this, there are benefits to human bodies with release with masturbation. The compulsiveness that may happen is not good though. Scriptures show all sorts of things are wrong, including things I and almost any of you would never do anyway, so a common practice, then about as much as now would be shown to be wrong if it was. Masturbation isn't shown to be wrong, but acting with lust is. Can it be without lust is the question.

What leads one to touching yourself? Nothing pure leads one to it. That's why it brings about addiction. Because its feeds into the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Anything that manifest from those things, is sin. Its not of the Father, its of the world (1 John 2:16)

There's no scenario that touching yourself is void of those things, in fact that it is how its manifest. And to give one the hope that it can be, is very misleading.

 

[Sir Robbins]

What leads one to touching yourself? Nothing pure leads one to it. That's why it brings about addiction. Because its feeds into the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Anything that manifest from those things, is sin. Its not of the Father, its of the world (1 John 2:16)

There's no scenario that touching yourself is void of those things, in fact that it is how its manifest. And to give one the hope that it can be, is very misleading.

then sex itself is a sin. Lust is what brings people (married too) towards sex.... sex feeds the lust of the flesh too. Otherwise, there'd be nothing physically pleasurable about it

 

[Chris V++]

What leads one to touching yourself? Nothing pure leads one to it. That's why it brings about addiction. Because its feeds into the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Anything that manifest from those things, is sin. Its not of the Father, its of the world (1 John 2:16)

There's no scenario that touching yourself is void of those things, in fact that it is how its manifest.

Not to be graphic but healthy men usually wake up physically aroused (sometimes even it the middle of the night.) This is involuntary- no lust of the eyes necessary. It can be managed too without adulterous thought.
The alternative to managing it can lead to a sort of preoccupation.
If a man remains stimulated too long without release, physical pain is possible. This is what we are.

John 2:16 speaks of 'all that is in the world' The verse that precedes it is
'5 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.'

and after

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Maybe 'lust' in this context means more of a 'lust for life' and not erotic lust as your post suggests.

 

[Chris V++]

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife her due: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife has not power over her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband has not power over his own body, but the wife.
5Deprive not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your lack of self-control.
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man has his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9But if they cannot have self-control, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn with passion 1 Corinthians

If as Paul writes it is better to marry (for sex in this context) than to 'burn with passion,' wouldn't it be better to touch than burn with passion (presuming marriage sex is off the table) since the 'burn with passion' seems to be our lot.

 

[salt-n-light]

Not to be graphic but healthy men usually wake up physically aroused (sometimes even it the middle of the night.) This is involuntary- no lust of the eyes necessary. It can be managed too without adulterous thought.
The alternative to managing it can lead to a sort of preoccupation.
If a man remains stimulated too long without release, physical pain is possible. This is what we are.

John 2:16 speaks of 'all that is in the world' The verse that precedes it is
'5 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.'

and after

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Maybe 'lust' in this context means more of a 'lust for life' and not erotic lust as your post suggests.

Its said "lust of the flesh" not "lust for life".

Arousal, and lust two different things, lust have purpose. Arousal is not only a male thing either. And arousal doesnt equate to touching yourself, nor would it justify it.

 

[salt-n-light]

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife her due: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife has not power over her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband has not power over his own body, but the wife.
5Deprive not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your lack of self-control.
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man has his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9But if they cannot have self-control, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn with passion 1 Corinthians

If as Paul writes it is better to marry (for sex in this context) than to 'burn with passion,' wouldn't it be better to touch than burn with passion (presuming marriage sex is off the table) since the 'burn with passion' seems to be our lot.

No.

 

[2tim_215]

The problem with masturbation and what makes it a sin is because of the lust involved. Paul says that we are to keep our bodies in subjection and not be driven by out flesh. He also says in Hebrews 13:4
Hebrews 13:4 (KJV) Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Sex during marriage is acceptable but fornication (sex outside of marriage is not). It's pretty easy to connect the dots if you really want to.

 

[Chris V++]

That's why it brings about addiction. Because its feeds into the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Anything that manifest from those things, is sin. Its not of the Father, its of the world (1 John 2:16)

Since this discussion I've almost completely abstained or maybe fasted is a better word. I just took one weak step in the right direction and God cured me. It was like an addiction. It hasn't even been a struggle. I'm starting to worry something is broken since it's so different now. Thanks for being so resolute.

 

[Eryk Hammaburg]

.... if lust is a sin, isn´t it also a sin to have sex with your spouse just for pleasure?
Is masturbating, without pornographic, not as well just for pleasure?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

.... if lust is a sin, isn´t it also a sin to have sex with your spouse just for pleasure?
Is masturbating, without pornographic, not as well just for pleasure?

So, is anything you do for pleasure (following your line of reasoning) sin?

 

[Eryk Hammaburg]

No. That´s why I am asking cause I am getting confused after reading here now everything.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

No. That´s why I am asking cause I am getting confused after reading here now everything.

If you process everything through "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself," when is something sin?

The Apostle Paul also said: "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23) In context, Paul is talking about being able to eat anything himself, but if someone else doesn't believe he can and eats, the one who ate would be in sin. Therefore, reasoned Paul, if you are there with people with a lower faith, don't eat the meat that would cause them to stumble.

Paul also talks about "walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh." If the Spirit is saying "no" to you about something, then don't do it.

James says: "To him who knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

.... if lust is a sin, isn´t it also a sin to have sex with your spouse just for pleasure?
Is masturbating, without pornographic, not as well just for pleasure?

I guess I misunderstood you here. If lust is described as "strong sexual desire" for your wife, that certainly seems healthy. I think where it would cross over into sin is if you set out to have sex for pleasure and a baby was produced and you decided to abort the baby or if what you were doing for your pleasure knowingly hurt your spouse, as if she was just a sex slave or if you forced her to have sex, because she was your wife, for example.

In the second example you gave of masturbating. If with pornography, you are supporting an industry that makes money off women posing naked. You are supporting something that isn't godly or healthy for those women or for many males who are addicted to that and can't have a normal relationship with their spouse, because of it. If you did it in public, that would be sin for obvious reasons. If you did it in front of your wife while telling her that she couldn't take care of your needs as well as you can, that would certainly also be sin. But, if you were privately discrete about it? I don't see that as sin, because it harms nobody and it costs you nothing, so nobody could say that money could have been spent on something to help your neighbor. If it takes little time, nobody could say that the time could be spent better for the sake of others. There just doesn't seem to be a test that it fails, except that others believe it is wrong. So, don't announce that you do it to them!

 

[Eryk Hammaburg]

I guess I misunderstood you here. If lust is described as "strong sexual desire" for your wife, that certainly seems healthy. I think where it would cross over into sin is if you set out to have sex for pleasure and a baby was produced and you decided to abort the baby or if what you were doing for your pleasure knowingly hurt your spouse, as if she was just a sex slave or if you forced her to have sex, because she was your wife, for example.

In the second example you gave of masturbating. If with pornography, you are supporting an industry that makes money off women posing naked. You are supporting something that isn't godly or healthy for those women or for many males who are addicted to that and can't have a normal relationship with their spouse, because of it. If you did it in public, that would be sin for obvious reasons. If you did it in front of your wife while telling her that she couldn't take care of your needs as well as you can, that would certainly also be sin. But, if you were privately discrete about it? I don't see that as sin, because it harms nobody and it costs you nothing, so nobody could say that money could have been spent on something to help your neighbor. If it takes little time, nobody could say that the time could be spent better for the sake of others. There just doesn't seem to be a test that it fails, except that others believe it is wrong. So, don't announce that you do it to them!

This I can fully agree with.

And so I understand, IF I or whoever is masturbating without using pornography and in privacy it is not seen as a sin.

Thanks and have a good day