Do some believe babies go to Hell?

[Der Alte]

So when Cain murdered Abel "there (was) no transgression" & "sin is not imputed"? And Cain automatically goes to heaven along with Adam & Eve & Steve & everyone else living around their times?

I can't find the verse(s) which makes me responsible for determining the fate Cain, Adam & Eve etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All babies who die go to Heaven.
However, there are some individuals who are born whereby their names were never written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. These are they who will worship the beast in the future. So technically these babies (who will grow up to worship the beast) would not be in a state of forgiveness even as a baby (but they will not die when they are a baby) (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

 

[ClementofA]

I can't find the verse(s) which makes me responsible for determining the fate Cain, Adam & Eve etc.

You're the one who posted the following in this thread claiming it gives a Bible answer to the question of the OP: "Do some babies go to hell?":

The Bible answers the question.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where do those verses say anything about babies not going to "hell"? Where do they say babies go directly to heaven? Where do they say babies are automatically saved without faith in Christ? Where do they say babies go directly to heaven & enter heaven with their sin natures intact, with demon possession or without being born again?

Will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.

The Bible answers the question.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How do those verses answer the question "Do some babies go to hell?"? What is the answer, yes or no? If no, then does the same apply to Cain who murdered Abel:

So when Cain murdered Abel "there (was) no transgression" & "sin is not imputed"? And Cain automatically goes to heaven along with Adam & Eve & Steve & everyone else living around their times?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

---

and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest. (Eph.2:3b)

 

[ClementofA]

All babies who die go to Heaven.
However, there are some individuals who are born whereby their names were never written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. These are they who will worship the beast in the future. So technically these babies (who will grow up to worship the beast) would not be in a state of forgiveness even as a baby (but they will not die when they are a baby) (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

That would be bad luck for them. Then whether or not billions gets saved would be a matter of pure luck.

Will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

---

and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest. (Eph.2:3b)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That would be bad luck for them. Then whether or not billions gets saved would be a matter of pure luck.

Will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven
and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest. (Eph.2:3b)

While the God of the Bible is not in line with Calvinistic viewpoint, God is sovereign over many things (Whether you want to accept that fact or not).

Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. For God had created a line of believers from Abraham to Joseph. What are the odds of that happening? What about the 144,000 jews in the end times who will accept Jesus and be without fault before the throne of God mentioned in Revelation chapter 7? (See Revelation 14:3-5). Again, what are the odds of that happening?

Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

I mean, are you aware that the evil that Joseph's brothers did unto Joseph, it was intended for a greater good in the end by God? God had a sovereign plan for Joseph's life. Job did not suffer for no reason. Job's suffering was a way to draw closer to God. Everything in this life happens for a reason (even the dying of a baby). There are no accidents. God is ultimately in control amongst humans who exercise their free will choices. Granted, God does not force salvation upon anyone, but God can be very persuasive by the power of His love.

 

[Der Alte]

How is this query relevant to my post which said nothing about anyone being "punished"?

You do the math you know what I was talking about.

Do you deny the fall of man and his sinful nature? Who does Rom.3:23 refer to, all humans or many humans? Who are the "all" who have sinned:
Rom.3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

When I read the Bible I don't put my common sense in a drawer and come back and get it later. An infant and small children are not capable of forming intent. They do not have the capacity to think "This is wrong but I'm going to do it anyway."

What is the sin nature?
Are we all born sinners?
Did we all inherit sin from Adam and Eve?

I don't read or respond to anonymous internet scribbling. If you have a credible source quote it here.

Explain how Satan entered Judas or demons enter men. That should provide you with the answer to your question.

Evidently you don't know. Have you ever actually read the Bible, anything other than UR scribbling?
Judas and other men are adults capable of reasoning and choosing to sin.

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.​

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Already addressed this here and in other posts.

 

[ClementofA]

Judas and other men are adults capable of reasoning and choosing to sin.

Which says nothing about how demons enter & possess human beings, or deny that they can possess infants & children.

I can't find the verse(s) which makes me responsible for determining the fate Cain, Adam & Eve etc.

You're the one who posted the following in this thread claiming it gives a Bible answer to the question of the OP: "Do some babies go to hell?":

The Bible answers the question.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where do those verses say anything about babies not going to "hell"? Where do they say babies go directly to heaven? Where do they say babies are automatically saved without faith in Christ? Where do they say babies go directly to heaven & enter heaven with their sin natures intact, with demon possession or without being born again?

Will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.

The Bible answers the question.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How do those verses answer the question ""Do some babies go to hell?"? What is the answer, yes or no? If no, then does the same apply to Cain who murdered Abel:

So when Cain murdered Abel "there (was) no transgression" & "sin is not imputed"? And Cain automatically goes to heaven along with Adam & Eve & Steve & everyone else living around their times?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

---

and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest. (Eph.2:3b)

​

 

[PaulCyp1]

The only thing that sends anyone to Hell is sin, and babies are incapable of it.

 

[ClementofA]

While the God of the Bible is not in line with Calvinistic viewpoint, God is sovereign over many things (Whether you want to accept that fact or not).

Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. For God had created a line of believers from Abraham to Joseph. What are the odds of that happening? What about the 144,000 jews in the end times who will accept Jesus and be without fault before the throne of God mentioned in Revelation chapter 7? (See Revelation 14:3-5). Again, what are the odds of that happening?

Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

I mean, are you aware that the evil that Joseph's brothers did unto Joseph, it was intended for a greater good in the end by God? God had a sovereign plan for Joseph's life. Job did not suffer for no reason. Job's suffering was a way to draw closer to God. Everything in this life happens for a reason (even the dying of a baby). There are no accidents. God is ultimately in control amongst humans who exercise their free will choices. Granted, God does not force salvation upon anyone, but God can be very persuasive by the power of His love.

What are you saying? Humans souls preexisted before they were conceived?

When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?


------------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What are you saying? Humans souls preexisted before they were conceived?

*Sigh* No. I said "Imagine." I am saying God is sovereignly aware of what men will do in the future and He is in control of where to place them through out time before they even existed.

When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?

God is aware of those who will worship the beast in the future (See Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). As a result, their names are the only exception of those who are excluded from the book of life before the foundation of the world. So if God is capable of making this kind of decision before they were born, then God is perfectly capable of making the decision in regards to those babies who will die and go to Heaven, too.

Side Note:

If my memory serves me correctly, you are still a Universalist, right? If so, then I fail to see how this really matters from your perspective. All will be saved in the end. But this life is pretty meaningless if that is the case, though. Why bother to defend any Biblical viewpoint or give a thought to God if everyone will be saved in the end? What you do here does not matter. I really do not see why you are so determined on defending anything in God's Word if you are still a Universalist. Note: If you are not a Universalist, then my apologies, and I have you confused with someone else.

In any event, may God bless you (Whether we agree or not).

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ClementofA]

*Sigh* No. I said "Imagine." I am saying God is sovereignly aware of what men will do in the future and He is in control of where to place them through out time before they even existed.

How is it possible God can know libertarian free will (LFW) decisions before they occur?

God is aware of those who will worship the beast in the future (See Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). As a result, their names are the only exception of those who are excluded from the book of life before the foundation of the world. So if God is capable of making this kind of decision before they were born, then God is perfectly capable of making the decision in regards to those babies who will die and go to Heaven, too.

So how did that answer this: When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?

If my memory serves me correctly, you are still a Universalist, right? If so, then I fail to see how this really matters from your perspective. All will be saved in the end. But this life is pretty meaningless if that is the case, though. Why bother to defend any Biblical viewpoint or give a thought to God if everyone will be saved in the end? What you do here does not matter.

Yes, i'm of the view that Scripture teaches universalism after the last one in "hell" has been saved. The Bible also teaches that there are a number of destinations, erroneously called "hell" (Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire, etc), to avoid & the sufferings thereof. So this life is not meaningless. Furthermore, there are other reasons why this life has meaning, e.g.:

Eccl. 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Even if there was no postmortem hell, your own conscience tells you you should repent & do what is right & loving. Even also the consequences of sin in this life should motivate you to repent, to say nothing of loving your neighbour, doing him no harm & returning love to Love Omnipotent Crucified Who loved you more than life itself.

If your faith is mature, are you motivated by fear:

1 Jn.4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved? Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

I really do not see why you are so determined on defending anything in God's Word if you are still a Universalist.

Jesus, our example to follow, had a heart of compassion that led Him to do good for others who were suffering:

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Has the teaching of hell been beneficial to mankind?
Hell Versus Christian Universalism. Visitor Comments and Testimonies on Tentmaker and Universal Salvation

The Fruit of the Teaching of Hell
The Doctrine of Hell Terrorizes!
The Fruit of the Teaching of Hell

 

[twin.spin]

The answer is what Scripture teaches:

Romans 3:10-11
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God;
it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
​

These verses (along with others not listed) refute the false beliefs that babies have some kind of exemption.

 

[Yarddog]

I don't believe that but I would be interested to know if there is anyone here who believes that.

I don't know if anyone goes to hell until judgement. If so, do you think that God would judge a baby guilty?

 

[NBB]

We christians are more dirty than babies!!. And Jesus said the kingdom of God belonged to them, and the bible says they praise God, my opinion is if you think babies go to hell, then it is disgusting and not biblical.

Psalm 8:2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
2 From the mouths of children and babies come songs of praise to you.
They sing of your power to silence your enemies who were seeking revenge.

They can't accept salvation at that age!!

 

[ClementofA]

my opinion is if you think babies go to hell, then it is disgusting

Even if they were not in any pain? But being matured & presented with the gospel to make their decision for, or against, Christ?

 

[SkyWriting]

I would also like to believe that but, I don't think it can be found in the Bible?

Accountability age in the Bible just does not ring a bell?

M-Bob

True. But about infants, passages say that the preborn are God's by design.

 

[SkyWriting]

We christians are more dirty than babies!!. And Jesus said the kingdom of God belonged to them, and the bible says they praise God, my opinion is if you think babies go to hell, then it is disgusting and not biblical.

Psalm 8:2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
2 From the mouths of children and babies come songs of praise to you.
They sing of your power to silence your enemies who were seeking revenge.

They can't accept salvation at that age!!

Unless babies land on God's lap at birth, they are not comming into paradise. They are born into sin.

 

[Invalidusername]

*Sigh* No. I said "Imagine." I am saying God is sovereignly aware of what men will do in the future and He is in control of where to place them through out time before they even existed.



God is aware of those who will worship the beast in the future (See Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). As a result, their names are the only exception of those who are excluded from the book of life before the foundation of the world. So if God is capable of making this kind of decision before they were born, then God is perfectly capable of making the decision in regards to those babies who will die and go to Heaven, too.

Side Note:

If my memory serves me correctly, you are still a Universalist, right? If so, then I fail to see how this really matters from your perspective. All will be saved in the end. But this life is pretty meaningless if that is the case, though. Why bother to defend any Biblical viewpoint or give a thought to God if everyone will be saved in the end? What you do here does not matter. I really do not see why you are so determined on defending anything in God's Word if you are still a Universalist. Note: If you are not a Universalist, then my apologies, and I have you confused with someone else.

In any event, may God bless you (Whether we agree or not).

Jesus also says those who have blasphemed the Holy Spirit never have forgiveness either in this life or the next. Sometimes I wonder if they also never had their names in the book of life as well.

 

[hedrick]

Over the years I’ve slowly started to reject the basic Augustinian model. It has us start out alienated from God, and only something (people disagree on what exact mix of faith and works) allows us to be reconciled with God (on the basis of Christ’s death and resurrection, obviously).

The OT and Jesus both teach that we’re accountable to God, and the reality of sin. But they also see God as eager to forgive. Nor in my opinion is there are real basis for rejecting the concept that God called us good. (There are a couple of isolated texts that get quoted, but they have specific explanations, and don’t seem to represent the general Biblical position.) Yes, we sin, but as long as we’re repentant we’re OK.

So my current model is that we start out acceptable to God and are only in danger of hell if we definitively reject him. I hope that’s not common, though I don’t see any real way to know. But if we start out as God’s children, then of course babies are part of the Kingdom. Jesus seems to say that as well.

One of the biggest problems with the Augustinian approach is that it requires a magic age when God reverses how he deals with us. To my knowledge, almost no current Christians think any babies are damned. Several people here have said that someone else believes it, but I haven’t seen many say that *they* believe it. As far as I know the major traditions current don’t hold it. So that requires us to say that at a certain age the presumption reverses, and we have to take specific action (whether faith or works) to be saved. This whole model raises the question of whether God has a prejudice against adults.

On baptism. Baptism is certainly associated with faith. John 3 and Rom 6 both do that. Normally being born from above is from water and the spirit. But I also don’t think God is the kind of legalist who is going to throw someone in hell who has faith and follows Jesus. But why would someone not want to do what both Scripture and tradition say is part of becoming Christian?