• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

Status
Not open for further replies.

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Why would you tell them that? And Jesus told people what they "have to do" to have salvation/eternal life. Believe in Him.

If you want to motivate people you encourage them by saying their belief in the project will make it come to success. Many times one starts a big piece of work, you get discouraged and want to give up, but belief in its final creation pulls one through.

Jesus did that to us His people.
Are we saved, in heaven with God now, today, at this moment?
No it is all by faith in Jesus's words, and the belief that He will honour the words
He has spoken in regard to us His people. Some want to make the words themselves
the binding part rather than Jesus and His nature to honour His words.

If a mafia boss promises me something, it is very unlikely it will ever come to pass.
So the words and the character of the person who gives them matters.
Equally if one just wants wishful thinking, then knowing the speaker is irrelevant,
which is reflected when a challenge is given about the nature of the speaker is
deemed not important, when actually it is literally is everything.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Does God protect His prophets? No. Gods prophets are His servants, and His will is to defend His nature and principles.

God warns us by standing for Him we will be killed, persecuted abused, treated badly, even tortured and He will not intervene, other than to serve His purposes.
He declares though everything will bring a blessing to us and the Kingdom, so Amen
to the King of Kings.

Here is the ironic reality. By standing for love, justice, truth, righteousness we will
be made stronger and the true nature of sin and death will become clear to us when
the people who we share with will use violence to destroy us. I know which side of
this show I am happy to be on, Halleluyah, because the other side literally only leads
to death, despair and emptiness, full of hatred and bitterness and self pity.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Johnny's mommy told him about Jesus when he was 4 years old.. and he genuinely believed. But for the rest of his life he lived like a child of hell... And only used the name of God as a curse word. He hated God and the gospel and taught others to do the same. According to your theology, Johnny gets a free ticket into heaven...an idea that is refuted by pretty much the whole Bible, which supposes that if a person truly believes, he will act like it to some degree or another. Your theology is silly.

This is a heart breaking story. I know the story of Jesus is so optimistic, loving and kind. If hurt comes in, and bitterness and anger begin to dwell within, it can destroy the beauty love has put there and pollute everything one is.
There is a problem when someone turns their life into darkness, and walks that path. I think only a blind lunatic would suggest there walks a son of God, a child of light who will live into eternity when everything they are is darkness.

If you want to talk delusion, that would be it.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Johnny's mommy told him about Jesus when he was 4 years old.. and he genuinely believed.
Well, one obvious question is: believed what, exactly? Who knows what his mommy told him.

But for the rest of his life he lived like a child of hell... And only used the name of God as a curse word. He hated God and the gospel and taught others to do the same. According to your theology, Johnny gets a free ticket into heaven...an idea that is refuted by pretty much the whole Bible, which supposes that if a person truly believes, he will act like it to some degree or another.
Again, what did his mommy actually tell him? And was there any discipling after he supposedly believed (and what)? So many questions.

Your "scenario" has a lot of holes in it.

Your theology is silly.
Well, tell that to Jesus, who SAID those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

So, if this snotty little 4 y/o did believe in Jesus for salvation (but how many 4 y/o's even understand they are sinners going to hell?), then Jesus DID what He said He does for "whoever believes": that is, give them eternal life.

Do you believe that Jesus gives the free gift of eternal life for everyone who believes in Him for salvation?

Now, do you believe that whoever He gives the free gift of eternal life shall never perish?
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Biblical love is Jesus and the cross. We agree, so Amen Brother.
By the way, love is the theme of scripture.
The theme of Scripture is to believe in the Messiah.

There is no deeper thing that to know we are loved, by the King
of Kings, purchased by His blood, an offering to the Father, a
demonstration to eternity of His eternal love and sacrifice, to go
to the lost and purchase His people from the lost, What a King
What a Lord, What a praise offering we should give to Him.
This is not the gospel, as much as you emote that it is.

Knowing that Christ died for your sins is only part of the gospel. One must also know that He saves those who entrust (believe, faith) their souls to Him for salvation from the lake of fire.

Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Heb 13:15-16
Neither is this the gospel.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
None of the scriptures you quoted say anything about a Christian who hates his brother still having eternal life.
It really doesn't require that much spiritual discernment to see that they do.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
JLB
How come you don't understand that the word "abiding" changes the sentence?

John could and would have left that word OUT of the sentence if he meant that hating one's fellow believer resulted in loss of eternal life.

Here's what it would say:
"no murderer has eternal life in him". That' what you want the verse to mean.

But the sentence doesn't say that. The word "abiding" is DIFFERENT than that sentence without that word.

Again, it's an issue of spiritual discernment, which you apparently lack in great measure.

And, again, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, so there is NO WAY your opinion could be correct.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
If you want to motivate people you encourage them by saying their belief in the project will make it come to success. Many times one starts a big piece of work, you get discouraged and want to give up, but belief in its final creation pulls one through.
Your comparison has no relevance to anything Scriptural.

Jesus did that to us His people.[/QIUOTE]
No He didn't. That would be silly. We don't "produce things" in order to get to heaven.

Are we saved, in heaven with God now, today, at this moment?
No, we are saved, NOW, possessing eternal life on earth today this moment. That is, for those who have believed in Christ for salvation.

No it is all by faith in Jesus's words, and the belief that He will honour the words He has spoken in regard to us His people. Some want to make the words themselves the binding part rather than Jesus and His nature to honour His words.
So you are one who doesn't believe that anyone is saved NOW on earth????

If a mafia boss promises me something, it is very unlikely it will ever come to pass.
You seem to have a knack for lousy comparisons and examples.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟448,811.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It really doesn't require that much spiritual discernment to see that they do.


How come you don't understand that the word "abiding" changes the sentence?

John could and would have left that word OUT of the sentence if he meant that hating one's fellow believer resulted in loss of eternal life.

Here's what it would say:
"no murderer has eternal life in him". That' what you want the verse to mean.

But the sentence doesn't say that. The word "abiding" is DIFFERENT than that sentence without that word.

Again, it's an issue of spiritual discernment, which you apparently lack in great measure.

And, again, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, so there is NO WAY your opinion could be correct.

A Christian, someone who has eternal life in them, who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life abiding in them.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The theme of Scripture is to believe in the Messiah.

Now this is a new one on me. You can read the whole of the old testament, and there is very little about the Messiah, or belief in the cross, or belief is the core issue.

What are the 2 greatest commandments, ie the whole point of being a Jew, of the testimony of God to man.

Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Matt 22:37-40

Everything hangs on these two commandments. And the core basis of these commandments are love.

Now if you do not know this you do not know the Father and His testimony. And if you do not know the Father and His will and heart then how can you know the Messiah and His heart.

Jesus declares He and the Father are one.

You claim, Free, to be able to correct me, to have authority, to know scripture and yet, this issue, which is central to everything you do not know.

Who has deceived you, and blinded you to the greatest gift of love, Jesus on the cross, which answers our deepest call in life, heals our deepest agony. What you are sharing is like a pebble on the beach of the sea of love which is God and His heart, vast beyond measure, and He calls us to enter, to be healed and to experience this.

My empathy for you will always make me know where you are, but the Lord will always call me deeper, Amen.

You are Lord more gracious than words can express, you ways more wonderful than I could dream, more true than the deepest knowledge of man.
When man thinks your word comes from the inventive mind of man, they do not conceive of its vastness, because their hearts are hard and they are not interested in finding the answer, yet you are gracious to us and call us by your name, Thank you My Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Your comparison has no relevance to anything Scriptural.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If love flowed through you, and your heart was pure, touched by the Holy Spirit you would know of what I speak.

Dear brothers and sisters, many here will speak harshly, knowing their security is in words and intellect yet their hearts are hard and their manner harsh. In the end, unless they open their hearts to the cross, and let love rule, no amount of argument will change anything, but the root is always humbling our selves before our King and letting Him in.

Many years ago Jesus laid on my heart, love is the key, the battle ground, the foundation. It is our spiritual inheritence and our walk. And it is embedded in obedience, choice, emotion, healing and truth. But most of all change, and our openness to be molded by the Almighties gracious hand. So be encouraged for of His Kingdom there will be no end, Amen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB777
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Hi free,

"No He didn't. That would be silly. We don't "produce things" in order to get to heaven."

If after our exchanges you think this is my heart, then that is the end.
A river as it flows, just flows. It does not have thoughts or questions, it is what it is.
Those born of God are like the wind, as the Spirit guides them, they share and are gone.

At church it was mentioned in sunday school they were dealing with Jericoh. A hard story of rebellion, obedience and judgement. There is a time for sharing, a time of choice and then a time for intervention. It struck me that Israel had this choice. Trust God and fight the people living in the land, or rebel and not believe God conquers all.

We have many challenges in our lives, but it is in knowing How He has provided before
and will do so again, if we obey, go up and fight His fight.

Sadly many believers rest in a place they should not rest, not seeing that the plain lies
before them to enter and move in. But it takes faith, to believe one can conquer what
in the past was a barrier, to find the path, meet the people and move forward. But He
always provides the next step, we just have to listen. God bless you.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
A Christian, someone who has eternal life in them, who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life abiding in them.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
JLB
Correct.

But it cannot be said that such a believer no longer has eternal life in them.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"The theme of Scripture is to believe in the Messiah."
Now this is a new one on me. You can read the whole of the old testament, and there is very little about the Messiah, or belief in the cross, or belief is the core issue.
This is not an unexpected response from someone who places emotions above knowledge of the Word.

Just consider what the greatest evangelist of all time said about the OT:
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

You claim, Free, to be able to correct me, to have authority, to know scripture and yet, this issue, which is central to everything you do not know.
No, I have no authority to correct anyone. I can only share what Scripture says which is able to teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. If love flowed through you, and your heart was pure, touched by the Holy Spirit you would know of what I speak.
If fellowship with the Lord ensues, the believer will bear fruit. That's what Jesus meant by abiding in Him in John 15.

Dear brothers and sisters, many here will speak harshly, knowing their security is in words and intellect yet their hearts are hard and their manner harsh.
My security is in the Words of Jesus. You can bank on that. Sorry you can't.

Many years ago Jesus laid on my heart, love is the key, the battle ground, the foundation.
I already shared all the verses that teach that knowledge is the key to spiritual growth. But you are more interested in emotions than growth, it seems.

It is our spiritual inheritence and our walk.
These things are based on knowledge of God's word, not emotions.
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
716
British Columbia
✟87,436.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Only if John had left the word "abiding" out of the verse.
But he didn't.
So all you do is keep showing your lack of discernment about what "abiding" means.
"Abiding in Jesus" is the same as being "in Christ".
But, these terms mean quite different things
than what you believe they mean.
They are talking about BACs who are "the faithful",
i.e. those who walk the walk and don't just talk the talk.
Paul wrote ONLY to "the faithful" at Ephesus & Colossae.
All of the "promises" were ONLY to these "faithful" ones!

These BACs are NOT habitually sinning w/o repentance, which is very prevelant in today's churches.
These BACs do not believe in greasy grace,
nor do they believe in OSAS.
These BACs love Jesus enough to actually obey Him
(as is required) to be "in Christ".
No one is "abiding in Christ" who ONLY believes in Him,
has faith and trust in Him. Obedience is required.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If fellowship with the Lord ensues, the believer will bear fruit. That's what Jesus meant by abiding in Him in John 15.

My security is in the Words of Jesus. You can bank on that. Sorry you can't.

I already shared all the verses that teach that knowledge is the key to spiritual growth. But you are more interested in emotions than growth, it seems.

These things are based on knowledge of God's word, not emotions.

My friend, you desire to continue this conversation.
May I ask, as you seem to want to deny emotions are involved in love and Jesus, do you love your mother?
I true loved my granny, a true woman of God. She was faithful to the Lord through difficult and trying times. She knew how to reach out to young people and care.
Her faith melted my heart. In Jesus I found a similar heart.

My mother was hurt and deeply defended. She has been cut off from her emotions all her life, a ship adrift, relying on others to define what was nice and what was not.
And my deepest friend, my Lord and Master Jesus, I saw His death, His pain, His suffering for me and it makes me weep. Such a price and also such a debt.

To know Jesus is to be touched deeper than anyone else can ever reach, friend, wife, brother, mother. To then say this Lord to whom we owe everything, and who will raise us up from the grave does not stirr our hearts, or bring praise to our lips, and raise a smile and gratitude from within, there is something wrong.

Is there literally no joy in your life, or dancing or celebration, just a dull monotone of facts and positions, like an accountant on a bad day.......
Jesus is the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, where if the people had not praised the very rocks would have sung.

I have 3 kids, a wife, and have responsibility for my mother in a care home. They are all loving, caring, sensitive individuals with a good integrated social life, and support network. This is the power of Christ at work in the heart of man.

Do you not know Paul and the Apostles were all men of the heart, singing praises in prison, in homes, bringing Gods peace and joy whereever they went. This is all emotional, because literally they really, openly cared. Paul talkes time and again about grief, tears, desire, love, encouragement. So if you want Jesus, this is where He is.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,475
458
London
✟88,083.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus talks about the guest at the wedding feast of the lamb, not dressed properly to celebrate the great day. This parable reminds me of you, not seeing this King and His riches, just hanging on is desperation to the words and promises, but finding only doubt and emptiness within, and holding on for dear life, that this might be true and real.

Unfortunately, with the door shut, and everything locked down, change is just not possible, only a broken wreak at the end of a painful defended road of failure and struggle.
 
Upvote 0

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,411
405
52
South Dakota
✟92,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is there literally no joy in your life, or dancing or celebration, just a dull monotone of facts and positions, like an accountant on a bad day.......
Jesus is the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, where if the people had not praised the very rocks would have sung.

Peter, what you can't seem to understand is that believers with doctrine, Praise The Lord Jesus Christ and His works..........Not our own. Our works are rewarded, His WORKS save us.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟448,811.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Correct.

But it cannot be said that such a believer no longer has eternal life in them.

Those Christian’s who hate their brother, no longer have eternal life in them.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.