If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Der Alte]

begin

<Clem>We don't, everyone dies, & did any infants & children there go straight to heaven when they died? But it should be embarrassing to try to compare Sodom's destruction with the unbelievably horrific monstrosity of endless tortures, which makes Love Omnipotent appear infinitely worse than Satan, Hitler & Stalin combined. An eternity of pain is not the same as the pain of an instant death. Eternity is quite a long time:<end>

end

Does not address my analogy. Would you consider the actions of Nazi Germany monstrous, terrible, horrible when they killed all the residents and completely destroyed the village of Lidice, Czechoslovakia because freedom fighters killed one German officer ? A simple yes or no will suffice.

begin

<Clem>"Buddhist teachers asked their pupils to imagine a cart loaded with 20 kharis of sesame seed, from which once every century one tiny seed was removed; yet when the whole cartload had gone, they would still be in the first Hell, and thousands of further Hells lay beyond it. The young James Joyce was told to imagine a mountain of grains of sand a million miles high, a million miles wide and a million miles thick, from which every million years a little bird carried away one grain of sand; and when the mountain was removed, not a single instant of eternity would have ended."<end>

end

Buddhism is irrelevant. Nothing about Christianity could possibly be appropriated from Buddhism. Similarity does not prove derivation. Do you have anything relevant?

 

[Der Alte]

From my reading on the subject it seems that you are wrong & you've never provided anything except your unsupported opinion that "Bullinger was a UR-ite" (that is, that he advocated universalism).

Lastly, Mr. Bullinger and his followers believed and taught the errors of: soul-extinction--a type of annihilationism and universal reconciliation. Most seriously, they failed to understand the biblical truth of "spiritual death".
The Anglo-Catholic Errors of E.W. Bullinger

 

[ClementofA]

Lastly, Mr. Bullinger and his followers believed and taught the errors of: soul-extinction--a type of annihilationism and universal reconciliation. Most seriously, they failed to understand the biblical truth of "spiritual death".
The Anglo-Catholic Errors of E.W. Bullinger

That makes him an annihilationist, not a universalist.

 

[ClementofA]

Then what you need to do amigo is quote some of that "reading" here rather than just make vague references to it.

Your argument here is nothing but more, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the OT. Jer 13:14
Thus shall Judah be broken without mercy or pity. To increase the emphasis, there is a cumulation of expressions, as in Jer_21:7; Jer_15:5, cf. Eze_5:11; Eze_7:4, Eze_7:9, etc.
Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light,
​

All irrelevant. Nothing there refutes what i've previously posted, e.g.:

Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
..

Jer.13:7-14 does - not - say that. It says God - caused - them to cleave to Him.

As to the purpose of God Almighty, Love Omnipotent, being fulfilled:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

You keep trying to shift the burden of proof to me when it is all yours. Here is what scripture says.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
God is speaking in this verse, Can you show me any verse where God Himself is speaking, not Paul or some other writer, said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jer 13:14.,
because they rejected Him, "Oops I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy and save them?

If He didn't have pity - as regards the particular judgment in view - of the context - and killed them, how does that address what happens to them postmortem? Does He say
that after He destroys/kills them that He will - never - have mercy on them in the afterlife also? Or is the passage completely silent about any postmortem consequences?
Does the context even mention "hell"? No. Compare this a few chapters later from the same book & author:

Jeremiah 21:7
"Then afterwards," declares the LORD, "I will give over Zedekiah king of Judah and his servants and the people, even those who survive in this city from the pestilence, the
sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their foes and into the hand of those who seek their lives; and he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword. He will not spare them nor have pity nor compassion."

Which proves the "not sparing" & not "having pity" is related to this life only and the particular judgement in view - in the context - i.e. being killed..."he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword". It has nothing to do with anything beyond this life, or postmortem consequences.

Show me where that quote or context says after He destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that He would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

<Clem>Can you show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also NEVER have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved<end>
What part of God, Himself, saying "I [God]will not pity, [I God will not ]spare, [I God will] destroy them? Do you think God did not mean "I will not have pity" when He said it? Do you think "I will not have mercy" means "sometime in the future I will have mercy?"
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH]I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The burden of proof is on you, and/or all other UR-ites, to prove from scripture that God decided to change His mind and sometime in the future He would have pity and mercy and would undestroy the unfaithful and disobedient Israelites in Jer 13. Your 2 proof texts from Jn and 1 Jn do not, cannot supersede the words of God Himself. There is no NT verse or verses which can supersede the plain meaning of the scriptures I quoted.

You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.

When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?

When God "destroyed" the world with a flood, children & babies included, He did not "spare" the world, or have "mercy" (the same words Jer.13:14 uses) but did "destroy" (same English word as Jer.13:14) the people of the world. Does that prove these people (babies included) could not be saved postmortem? No. And IMO the same applies to Jer.13:14. Now let's see you try to refute that. Also note that Jer.13:14 refers to "fathers and sons". How young might some of those "sons" be? Do you suppose babies will be frying in hell for all eternity, like Augustine (the so-called champion of eternal punishment) believed?

To give another example, God make the king in Daniel 4 eat grass like an animal for 7 years. God did not "spare" him from this ordeal, nor have "mercy" on him to pardon him from this punishment, but instead subjected him to this insanity (a destruction of his soul) for 7 years. Yet afterwards the king was restored to sanity, humbled & worshipped God.

Consider also the following passages from the Bible & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[ClementofA]

I posted:

We don't, everyone dies, & did any infants & children there go straight to heaven when they died? But it should be embarrassing to try to compare Sodom's destruction with the unbelievably horrific monstrosity of endless tortures, which makes Love Omnipotent appear infinitely worse than Satan, Hitler & Stalin combined. An eternity of pain is not the same as the pain of an instant death. Eternity is quite a long time:

"Buddhist teachers asked their pupils to imagine a cart loaded with 20 kharis of sesame seed, from which once every century one tiny seed was removed; yet when the whole cartload had gone, they would still be in the first Hell, and thousands of further Hells lay beyond it. The young James Joyce was told to imagine a mountain of grains of sand a million miles high, a million miles wide and a million miles thick, from which every million years a little bird carried away one grain of sand; and when the mountain was removed, not a single instant of eternity would have ended."

Does not address my analogy. Would you consider the actions of Nazi Germany monstrous, terrible, horrible when they killed all the residents and completely destroyed the village of Lidice, Czechoslovakia because freedom fighters killed one German officer ? A simple yes or no will suffice.

What does this have to do with God allegedly torturing billions of people for eternity?

Buddhism is irrelevant. Nothing about Christianity could possibly be appropriated from Buddhism. Similarity does not prove derivation. Do you have anything relevant?

Evidently you missed the point.

 

[Light of the East]

Romans 9:20 puts it well for people like you. You will do well to heed it!

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

It is not "answering back to God." It is thinking about the Scriptures and the revelation that God has given to us which have apparently been corrupted by men over the centuries to mean what they do not mean. ClementofA is giving you yards and miles of information on the twisting and torturing of the Greek. Why don't you take a break, go get a nice ale and a pipe, have a smoke and drink, and study what he has said?

It is also not "answering back to God" to insist that God's character is as HE described it and not as man THINKS IT IS. Jesus made God's character clear in Matthew when He spoke of how we are to be like our heavenly Father: loving and forgiving our enemies. Yet if we were to be like our Father in the way that most Christians paint God to be, we would exact every pound of flesh for even the slightest insult and make that punisnment last as long as possible without any recourse to forgiveness or remediation of the offender.

THINK!!!!!

 

[Light of the East]

So, when Jesus warns the wicked sinners with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), and tells Judas that it "would have been better if he were never born" (Matthew 26:24), because of his great sin as traitor, Jesus was just using meaningless and empty "warnings"? When the Bible speaks of "fleeing the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7, etc), again this means absolutely nothing! If as you claim, based solely on God's love, with no regard to His Righteous Justice and Judgement, that "all will be saved", then what exactly is the whole point in Jesus Coming and suffering horribly on the cross, and going through great pain? The suffering that Jesus bore on the cross, is EXACTLY what the unrepentant sinner is going to get after death! When the Bible says that Christ suffered FOR us (those who repent and accept His salvation), it means that He took the pain and suffering that would have fallen on us! "For" in the Greek, is the preposition "ὑπέρ", meaning "on behalf of, taking the place of". If Jesus is not accepted as the one Sin-bearer, by any sinner, then what He took on the cross, must fall upon them! This is what the Righteous Justice and Judgement is all about. This is the Gospel of Salvation!

You have distorted the Bible's Teaching of the Gospel for hell-bound sinners, by giving them a false hope, which is no hope at all!

The "wrath to come" is speaking about the same thing that Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 - the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. As for the rest, I leave it to ClementofA to speak on these things, since I am still learning them.

 

[Light of the East]

So where is the Bible's "opposition" to endless hell? You have completely distorted the Bible's plain teaching on "endless punishment" for the wicked, and by doing so, are doing the bidding of the devil, by promoting his LIES!

I would ask you to tell me this:

1. Of what purpose is endless punishment?

2. God teaches us in His law that the punishment must fit the crime. You don't hang a 10 year old for stealing a candy bar. What sin (crime) is worthy of eternal punishment?

3. In regards to number 2, does God give us a standard of moral behavior that He is not bound to Himself?

4. Jesus taught us that we are to be like our Father in heaven in Matthew's Sermon on the Mount. If we are going to be like our Father in heaven as you and most of Christianity describes God, then we will never forgive anyone and punish people long after they have paid their debt.

5. Why does it bother you to think that God might actually punish souls to the point of changing them and bringing them to repentance and entrance into the Father's House?

 

[Light of the East]

Most believers are blinded by the religious system and only see God's wrath and limited ability to save. Its as if the blood of Jesus is powerless over the mighty freewill of the Adamic race. Strange there is no freewill in being dragged? Carnal man has a freewill to do a lot of things but sure does not have a freewill to save him self because he is carnal and salvation is spiritual experience. How can that is dead in trustpasses and sin and dead to the realm of God freely choose something totally contrary to its nature? God is not calling the whole world now. He has many ages to do this

You may find this blog piece interesting regarding God's ability to save within the context of our freewill choice:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

 

[Light of the East]

Wishful theology!

Says the one who has rejected apostolic teaching and authority for a man-made system of religion which has been tagged "Christian" but has no connection to what Christ taught the Apostles.

Excuse now while I go get a napkin or two. I just spit my coffee all over my monitor!

 

[Light of the East]

The Greek noun kolasis is rendered punishment in Matthew 25:46. This is the meaning at the time Jesus used the word, when it no longer only meant "correction" I will confess that this is the saddest doctrine in the Bible. And I really wish it were not true. But it is and I fully accept that whatever it is that it will be completely Just as God is fully Righteous in all he does

Uh huh......so tell me this? If God gives us a righteous standard of punishment for crimes, which is called "lex talionis" (i.e., the punishment fits the crime precisely) then how do you say that God punishes temporal and small sins with eternal torment? Is He not held to the same standard of justice to which we are told to keep?

 

[Light of the East]

To be in heaven is to be in the presence of God

Indeed. And to be in hell is also to be in the presence of God.

The unrepentant experience God's presence as torment and wrath. The repentant experience it as joy.

 

[Light of the East]

My anger is justified because of the demonic nonsense that is being pushed by those who are more interested in personal theology than the Word of God! They continue to attack the Bible and misuse it for their self promotion

Misuse? You mean like how Baptists deny "This IS my Body.....this IS my Blood?"

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

 

[Light of the East]

So long as God has revealed to us that He is willing to suffer all of the torments due me and others because of our sins - and, indeed, has done exactly that even though He has never sinned and can never sin - I am willing to give such a Savior the benefit of the doubt in all that He does and not call Him a monster.

You go ahead and do that if you like. But I wouldn't trade places with you for all of the gold in all the world.

It's a rhetorical question, dude! If you understand what is being said here by those who hold to Patristic Universalism, you will understand that we think that our Father is anything but a monster and we reject those pictures of Him which paint Him as such.

 

[Light of the East]

People who choose to deny Yeshua Messiah, Who Deny The Most High's Only Way Of Salvation and Willingly and Knowingly worship Satan and The Beast Will PAY For Their Sins Forever and They Deserve Every Second Of Their Punishment because They Willingly Chose It.

Really? So God commands us to practice lex talionis punishment, that is, the crime fits the punishment, but He Himself is not subject to what He commands us to practice? And yet we are supposed to be like Him?

So tell me, what sin is worthy of (equal to) an eternity of never-ending torment? And to what purpose is such never-ending punishment?

 

[Light of the East]

so, if Almighty God decides that no one will be allowed into HIS HEAVEN, because ALL are wretched sinners, and does indeed punish them (HIS CREATION) forever with "eternal punishment", that He is a "monster"?

What do you think?

How does your question agree with our Heavenly Father who is love itself?

 

[Light of the East]

You believe the true God of the scriptures to be a monster and say so. He is not and whoa to the man who calls Him a monster.

You fancy yourself theologically literate and can't even use the English language correctly.

It's "WOE" as in "WOE unto you."

 

[Light of the East]

It is just for God to punish all sin with everlasting punishment, because He is holy.

Not according to the standard which God Himself gave us - lex talionis punishment, which means that the punishment fits the crime.

What sin (crime) could any man or woman commit that requires (deserves) eternal torture?

 

[Light of the East]

What He has said is that His holiness requires eternal damnation for all sinners who are not justified by faith while living this physical life.

So you quite happily consign millions (billions, perhaps?) to an eternity of conscious torment because they never were fortunate enough to be like you and be born A.) in NT times B.) in a land already gospelized C.) with the ability to hear the Gospel?

How utterly just!

 

[Light of the East]

Also - I really don't see how the folks pushing the idea of eventual universal salvation can miss the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever".

Because it's a horrible translation of the Greek, which really says "Unto the ages of ages."