If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Soar Like and Eagle]

That is because you have been completely deceived by the devil to believe something that is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible, but based on you warped thinking! the much greater majority of the Church from the first century never believed the heresy of "universal salvation", and you think you know better! DELUDED!

So far I see no scripture coming from your post? Just insults that have no base on fact except that you are offended? Notice I post scripture not my opinion based on hot air and bias to back my claim.

Here is the Greek you wanted to see.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Greek Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction
A. of vessels
I.a perishing, ruin, destruction
of money
A. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Who is this verse addressing???

This is your fundamental belief that Jesus is going to damn billions. That’s heresy according to God’s Word which you claim to believe in. They bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.

Now it’s your turn to show me Christian Universalism is heresy. Please God’s Word opinions are not excepted.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

People who choose to deny Yeshua Messiah, Who Deny The Most High's Only Way Of Salvation and Willingly and Knowingly worship Satan and The Beast Will PAY For Their Sins Forever and They Deserve Every Second Of Their Punishment because They Willingly Chose It.

People do not choose to deny Jesus it is their nature to deny God its called being dead in trustpasses and sins or being carnal or NOT spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2: 14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.


Salvation is a spiritual experience and if God does not quicken your dead spirit you will reject Him because that is your nature as an un-spiritual man.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.

"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast




because God is not calling the whole world now.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

you can be sure it was NOT the God of the Holy Bible!

Your opinion again?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So far I see no scripture coming from your post?

Online on biblegateway.com it is possible to find many translations of Scripture to read fully and easily compare various readings.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your opinion again?

See biblegateway.com to read various versions of the bible.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why wouldn't you trade places with me? Wouldn't you want to know, as i do, that God is not a monster

The God you have created would not be a monster - I will grant you that.

But the God of the scriptures is not the God you have created.

You believe the true God of the scriptures to be a monster and say so. He is not and whoa to the man who calls Him a monster.

Wouldn't you want to know, as many do, that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world

I do know that.

Wouldn't you want to know, as many do, that creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

I do know that as well.

You believe, as do I, that God has and will reconcile all men to Himself. You believe that all of those reconciliations must be in Heaven where God is present. I believe many of them will be in Hell where God is present as well.

As I have said several times now - it would make me very happy if you turn out to be right. But I don't believe that your doctrine is correct according to the teaching of the scriptures.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

The God you have created would not be a monster - I will grant you that.

But the God of the scriptures is not the God you have created.

You believe the true God of the scriptures to be a monster and say so. He is not and whoa to the man who calls Him a monster.

I do know that.

I do know that as well.

You believe, as do I, that God has and will reconcile all men to Himself. You believe that all of those reconciliations must be in Heaven where God is present. I believe many of them will be in Hell where God is present as well.

As I have said several times now - it would make me very happy if you turn out to be right. But I don't believe that your doctrine is correct according to the teaching of the scriptures.

yes God is present everywhere. BUT Why would God want to watch billions and billions of people He never called be tortured with no mercy forever and ever that is a monster. That is why the word hell is a mis-transaction. it means the grace. Jesus went to preach to the Spirit that were in prison. Why? The good news.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Now it’s your turn to show me Christian Universalism is heresy. Please God’s Word opinions are not excepted.

We already know you don't
accept God's Word nor God's opinion.

We can only keep posting warning signs, like warning signs about plague, so people may be alert to the heresy,
even if the proponents of the heresy never care nor listen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

BUT Why would God want to watch billions and billions of people He never called be tortured with no mercy forever and ever that is a monster.

Why.
Why.
Why.
Why does God do what you don't like ?
WHy.
Why.
Why.
oH, wait, HE is God, not you.

 

[thesunisout]

.

God is holy and His punishment for sin is just. How is it that you don't know that but a dying atheist did?

Last words of Sir Thomas Scott, Chancellor of England: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty

 

[Oldmantook]

Why did they sacrifice sheep and goats? Sin offering.

Yes they did that for that reason which is the reason that I pointed out you are conflating the two issues. One has nothing to do with the other. Goats are clean animals fit for consumption according to the Law. However goats are as a symbol of sin - the removal of which takes place during ritual sacrifice or in the case of the scape goat, banishment in the wilderness. The former (eating) has nothing to do with the later (sin). Would you rather God name you as a sheep or a goat?

 

[Sammy-San]

A loving God warns and warns upfront such as before the great tribulation 1260 days of testimony and rising from the dead will be given. (Rev 11) Signs that can't be mistaken. Yet we read that many in the world don't heed the two witnesses (Gods) warnings but take joy in their deaths.

The demons knew their final outcome. Matt 8:29
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture (torment) us before the appointed time?"

Likewise Jesus performed many great signs that God was with Him and desired to lead the people of Israel to eternal life.
Yet:"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Even so its the good news of the gospels that is preached.That through Christ Jesus many can escape the 2nd death and receive eternal life.

It's like judges have to enforce harsh laws because that is just the way things are-they aren't being cruel to people. strict liability

 

[Oldmantook]

Amongst the believing community, we can endlessly debate whether or not God is a monster according to the teaching of eternal torment. If this teaching be true, then the gospel message is for all practical purposes not the good news at all, as for most people it is ultimately very bad news since most of humankind ends up in the lake of fire where their punishment is torment for eternity.

We punish criminals and sentence them to the penitentiary - Medieval Latin penitentiaria - "place of penitence." We sentence criminals to correctional facilities hoping that they will be rehabilitated. Yet ironically, the sentence for most humans after death is eternal punishment without any hope of redemption. God's wrath is no doubt fulfilled in the lake of fire where Rev 14:10 states "he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." However one must ask based on God's attributes why is it that Jesus is present in the lake of fire while souls are being tormented? Is it because Jesus delights in seeing people in torment? Is it because as a righteous judge, Jesus stands in the presence of those whom he sentenced? Wouldn't that be like adding salt to a wound? Or, it it because since God is love, Jesus has compassion even on those whom are being tormented. Which picture of Jesus fits your overall view of God?

The picture of God that we evangelize the unsaved with is fear-based. If you don't believe/trust in Jesus as you Savior, you will die and end up in the fires of hell forever. How does that notion square with Ps 30:5? "For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning."

No matter which view you subscribe to, there is no doubt that some people reject the gospel because the gospel that is preached is based on the fear of eternal punishment - if not for themselves but for their loved ones. I personally know of one woman whose son is a pastor and a friend of mine. She is a Buddhist and she cannot bring herself to become a Christian because that would then entail that all of her ancestors including her parents and grandparents who have died are being endlessly tormented in the fires of hell. That is the Christian proposition that she cannot bear to accept.

 

[Marvin Knox]

yes God is present everywhere. BUT Why would God want to watch billions and billions of people He never called be tortured with no mercy forever

Christ received (is receiving?) the same punishment God deems to be due all of the sins of the world - bar none. We (and everyone else) have our being in Him according to the scriptures. There is no reason to believe that it is not so for those in torment just as it is for those in Paradise and on this present earth.

So long as God finds it expedient for His eternal purposes to pour out His unimaginable wrath on Himself for the sins of the world - I have no problem with Him including those who actually committed those sins in His Son while He does so.

Who said He "wants to"?

When you say "wants to watch", you are insinuating that God would be deriving great pleasure from the fate of the wicked. He does not, as the scriptures clearly tell us.

and ever that is a monster.

That is your opinion of the God of the scriptures. It is not mine.

That is why the word hell is a mis-transaction. it means the grace. Jesus went to preach to the Spirit that were in prison. Why? The good news.

I don't believe that being told that you will be let out of torments sometime in the far distant future when God gets around to it is very good news. Purgatory by any name you choose to call it is a false doctrine.

I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that the word used for "hell" means "the grace".

Call it torments (as Jesus did) if it pleases you. The concept remains the same. Jesus left no doubt about it's reality.

The Word of God does not refer to human beings as "spirits". I says that we have spirits. But that is not the same as calling us spirits.

The passage you cite does not say that He preached "good news" to the Spirits in question. It simply says that He made a proclamation.

It also tells us who those spirits were. They were the spirits who kept not their first abode in the days before the flood.

 

[Marvin Knox]

However one must ask based on God's attributes why is it that Jesus is present in the lake of fire while souls are being tormented? Is it because Jesus delights in seeing people in torment? Is it because as a righteous judge, Jesus stands in the presence of those whom he sentenced? Wouldn't that be like adding salt to a wound?

It may be that He is there while they are being tormented because they have their being in Him and the wrath of God is also being poured out on Him in whom they have their being.

He may well be there suffering the punishment due us for our sins as well as those who are not among the elect.

........since God is love, Jesus has compassion even on those whom are being tormented.

Of course He does. The scriptures tell us so.

........Which picture of Jesus fits your overall view of God?

The first picture you painted (the one where God is taking delight in the punishment of the wicked) is not scriptural nor is it necessary to view God's personality that way in order to not believe in universal salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It may well be that the reason so many here think of God as a monster because He punishes sin eternally is because they lack a proper appreciation of the holiness of God and therefore also lack a proper appreciation of just how egregious the sins of men and angels are to Him.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Christ received (is receiving?) the same punishment God deems to be due all of the sins of the world - bar none. We (and everyone else) have our being in Him according to the scriptures. There is no reason to believe that it is not so for those in torment just as it is for those in Paradise and on this present earth.

So long as God finds it expedient for His eternal purposes to pour out His unimaginable wrath on Himself for the sins of the world - I have no problem with Him including those who actually committed those sins in His Son while He does so.

Who said He "wants to"?

When you say "wants to watch", you are insinuating that God would be deriving great pleasure from the fate of the wicked. He does not, as the scriptures clearly tell us.


That is your opinion of the God of the scriptures. It is not mine.

I don't believe that being told that you will be let out of torments sometime in the far distant future when God gets around to it is very good news. Purgatory by any name you choose to call it is a false doctrine.

I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that the word used for "hell" means "the grace".

Call it torments (as Jesus did) if it pleases you. The concept remains the same. Jesus left no doubt about it's reality.

The Word of God does not refer to human beings as "spirits". I says that we have spirits. But that is not the same as calling us spirits.

The passage you cite does not say that He preached "good news" to the Spirits in question. It simply says that He made a proclamation.

It also tells us who those spirits were. They were the spirits who kept not their first abode in the days before the flood.

Lets start with human being being spirit. When God created man in His image and His likeness and seeing God is a spirit which is his image and likeness than explain to me what the Bible means being created in His image and likeness.


1 Corinthians 15: 44 It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the soulish, and then the spiritual.

47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


“There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding” (Job 32:8).


Yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food)


*****Sixth day*****

Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.




In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Christ received (is receiving?) the same punishment God deems to be due all of the sins of the world - bar none. We (and everyone else) have our being in Him according to the scriptures. There is no reason to believe that it is not so for those in torment just as it is for those in Paradise and on this present earth.

So long as God finds it expedient for His eternal purposes to pour out His unimaginable wrath on Himself for the sins of the world - I have no problem with Him including those who actually committed those sins in His Son while He does so.

.

Christ is not going to be tortured forever and ever with no mercy that is what your doctrine of damning people means. Yes God is going to punish/prune/chastise the wicked but not forever and ever and ever and ever. What purpose is there if God is torturing someone forever and ever with no mercy? Did not Jesus blood cover the sins of the whole world? Does He need to die again according to your doctrine of damning?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

God is holy and His punishment for sin is just. How is it that you don't know that but a dying atheist did?

Last words of Sir Thomas Scott, Chancellor of England: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty

Yes God does punish/prune/chastise and it is just. But it is not just for God to torture billions of people he never called forever and ever and ever with NO mercy. That is the issue not punishment/pruning/chastisement.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Who said He "wants to"?

When you say "wants to watch", you are insinuating that God would be deriving great pleasure from the fate of the wicked. He does not, as the scriptures clearly tell us.


That is your opinion of the God of the scriptures. It is not mine.

I don't believe that being told that you will be let out of torments sometime in the far distant future when God gets around to it is very good news. Purgatory by any name you choose to call it is a false doctrine.

I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that the word used for "hell" means "the grace".

Call it torments (as Jesus did) if it pleases you. The concept remains the same. Jesus left no doubt about it's reality.

The Word of God does not refer to human beings as "spirits". I says that we have spirits. But that is not the same as calling us spirits.

The passage you cite does not say that He preached "good news" to the Spirits in question. It simply says that He made a proclamation.

It also tells us who those spirits were. They were the spirits who kept not their first abode in the days before the flood.

You said he wanted to by believing God would do such an evil act. God is a creator not a reactor so if eternal hell and torture is there it is because it was always part of His plan. He ordained it if it is true.

Hell means grace??? Did I say that???