LDS Zarahemla Nonexistent

[Peter1000]

This is such ridiculous logic on the part of our friend Peter.

Peter, if I told you I had a revelation from God that the LDS Church is a cult, and that JS and all other Mormon leaders are religious charlatans, and everyone should flee from them and their organization lest they be taken in by Satan, who is the real controlling power behind the LDS religion, would you believe me?

No, right? Because you presumably don't believe that "God" would say such things.

And if I responded to your dismissive reply by saying "Why are you limiting what God can say? Why are you silencing God? Do you think God doesn't speak to people anymore? Do you think it's impossible that God spoke to me and told me that? Why are you muting God?", you wouldn't suddenly turn around and say "Well, I guess I don't want to say that God is limited, or that He is silent, so I'll have to agree with you that God did tell you those things, and then do whatever0 it is that you say, since you say these are things God told you."

Please grant other people here the same courtesy and do not reply as though they making an argument that they are not making just because doing so makes it easier for you to respond according to what you've made out of their replies.

If you told me you had a revelation that JS was a false prophet, I would have to try to come to a conclusion if you were right? Since I have my father's testimony that he was a prophet, then I would take my fathers word over your word, and continue with my belief that JS was a prophet of God.

You are limiting what God can say. You are limited to what God said in the Bible. There is no wiggle room for you except what is written in the Bible. You have no where to go but to the Bible. Why would you limit God to a few words given in the Bible 2,018 years ago?

Has God not said anything to men since 110ad?

I notice that you did not answer my response to 'think about' the Israel dispersion, and the possibility that Israel is in many places in the world, including the Americas, at the time of Christ, and that in order for him to fulfill his mission, he very well may have visited Israel in other parts of the earth after his death and resurrection and ascension.

 

[drstevej]

Peter you only have a burning bosom and a mangled New Testament fabricated by your rock in a hat prophet.BTW, ever find the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in Missouri.

209 days till Mother's Day

 

[Solomon Smith]

Uh....No.... and what evidence do you have that what you say is true?

DNA evidence shows that the native Americans came over from Asia and not Israel.

 

[Peter1000]

Peter you only have a burning bosom and a mangled New Testament fabricated by your rock in a hat prophet.BTW, ever find the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in Missouri.

209 days till Mother's Day

Until we find these rivers and places, you should not throw stones:
Genesis 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Let' ask some questions about some other rivers and lands.

Have we located Eden and the river that came out from it. What is it's name?
Have we found the river Pison? Remember this river compasseth the land Havilah? Is there a river that we know of that goes all around the perimeter of Havilah?
Have we found the river Gihon? Remember this river compasseth Ethiopia. Is there a river in the Ethiopia that we know that goes all around the perimeter of Ethiopia?
Have we found the river Kiddekel? Is there a river on the east of Assyria?
Have we found the River Euphrates? The bible says nothing of this river, so how could you find it? Well at least we have a name?

When I have the answers to these questions, I will answer your question. Fair enough?

 

[dzheremi]

What are you talking about, Peter? Of course we've found the Euphrates. It's one of the two major rivers in Iraq, and also travels through parts of Syria and Turkey. The other river is Tigris. These two rivers are so essentially associated with Iraq, that the Assyrians who live there call their country/territory (which is larger than present-day Iraq, which is only part of historical Mesopotamia) Beth Nahrain, which is Assyrian for "Land of the two Rivers", referring precisely to the Tigris and the Euphrates. (The name that we know for this historical land, Mesopotamia, is Greek for "(Land) between rivers".)

Here is a modern Assyrian singer from Iran, Evin Aghassi, singing a patriotic song about the Assyrians' desire for an independent homeland, appropriately called "Beth Nahrain":

As these people still exist, and their rivers/country still exist, I don't know what the heck you're saying by asking if we've "discovered" said rivers. People have lived along and known about the Tigris and the Euphrates literally forever. This land is the site of the world's very earliest civilizations, after all. Writing developed here (probably independently of the same development in Egypt). The Garden of Eden is said to have been located here (or so goes the local tradition; the Armenians and a few others have their own traditions which locate it within their regions...surprise, surprise). There probably is still a lot to discover here (assuming people can get to it before ISIS does), but the major rivers that literally have defined the territory/empire/country for millennia are not one of them.

Apparently Hiddekel is another name (I'm assuming from Hebrew or another language) for the Tigris. When you put "Hiddekel river" into Google, the results it returns are all about the Tigris. The Pison or Pishon was apparently also found in Mesopotamia.

Where you think the Gihon is depends on what you identify with the ancient kingdom of Kush/Ethiopia. Obviously, there is modern day Ethiopia, which is one of the oldest continuously-existing countries in the world, but it's not clear whether or not the use of "Ethiopia" in the Bible necessarily refers to the same territory. In fact, it is almost impossible that it would, as Ethiopia's borders have changed considerably since ancient times, even since the establishment of the Axumite empire, which would have been long after Genesis was written. (Established circa 100 AD.) Still some Ethiopians and even Western scholars who specialize in Ethiopian history identify the Gihon with the Blue Nile, which runs through their country. See especially the comments of Herodotus (not because he's very reliable, but because he's very, very old) as found on the Gihon article on Wikipedia. Apparently there could have been an "Ethiopia" in Asia, as well as the one in Africa.

Now that you have answers to your questions to the extent that anyone does (I wouldn't want to claim that we know where things are if we do not, but it's worth remembering that these are just names people apply to natural features of the earth, so unless the earth has changed -- by the rivers changing their course or drying up or something like that -- those rivers are definitely out there, they're just probably not known by those names anymore), please answer the questions asked for you.

 

[mmksparbud]

Until we find these rivers and places, you should not throw stones:
Genesis 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Let' ask some questions about some other rivers and lands.

Have we located Eden and the river that came out from it. What is it's name?
Have we found the river Pison? Remember this river compasseth the land Havilah? Is there a river that we know of that goes all around the perimeter of Havilah?
Have we found the river Gihon? Remember this river compasseth Ethiopia. Is there a river in the Ethiopia that we know that goes all around the perimeter of Ethiopia?
Have we found the river Kiddekel? Is there a river on the east of Assyria?
Have we found the River Euphrates? The bible says nothing of this river, so how could you find it? Well at least we have a name?

When I have the answers to these questions, I will answer your question. Fair enough?

We may not know all the rivers--yet. But one thing we do know---they are not in Missouri!! Not one single, tiny, little bit of Evidence to even come close to Missouri!


11 The name of the first is Pishon; that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

The name Pishon comes from the root puwsh,6 which means to grow fat, spread out, or be scattered. If a traveler went south on the Tigris this is exactly the condition they would find as the river gives way to marshland.

12 and the gold of that land is good; there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

Following the river into the sea and continuing along its eastern bank will take a traveler around the harsh deserts of southern Iran and Pakistan. Indeed the word Havilah can be traced to the root chuwl which means circular, to twist or whirl, or writhe in pain and the root chowl which means sand.7

The identification of Havilah as a source for bdellium, a resin for incense making, and onyx further points to Iran and Pakistan. The Greek writer Theophrastus,8 and Pliny the Elder9 both identified areas in Afghanistan as the source of bdellium and even today Pakistan is one of the few suppliers of Onyx.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Gihon comes from the root giyach10 which means to gush forth. This may well have described how an ancient traveler would experience the mighty Euphrates as it finally emptied into the Persian Gulf. By following the western bank of this course the traveler would eventually find themselves rounding the Arabian peninsula and encountering Africa wherein lies the expected land of Cush, ancient Ethiopia.




The Four Rivers of Eden -Arianna Ravenswood

14 And the name of the third river is Tigris; that is it which goeth toward the east of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Modern maps still show how the Tigris River follows the eastern flank of the land known as Assyria by the Greeks and Asshur by its inhabitants. The Euphrates was presumably so well known that it needed no appellation. This leaves us with four rivers that are joined by canals forming a large x-shaped river network.

So where does this place the garden? If we look for a river that flows out of the steppe and enters near the joint course of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers the eye cannot help but be drawn to the Diyala River in eastern Iraq. Even today Iraq’s Diyala Province is known for its oranges and boasts one of the largest olive groves in the region.

Was the Garden of Eden really a trading port near the Diyala River?

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

The description of the garden frames it as being the center of a trade network. Locating the Garden of Eden based on the worldview of merchant trade coincides with the actual term for garden in the ancient text which is gan.11 The word gan specifically refers to a fenced in area that was likely used to corral animals as well as to secure property, in this case presumably for trade.

The introduction of man into the garden to “dress and keep” further reveals the language of commerce. The term “dress” is abad12 in Hebrew. Abad means to serve as a laborer or in this case perhaps as a husbandman. This meaning is reinforced by the word “keep” which in the ancient text is shamar,13 a word that means to stand guard over.

The records from ancient Iraq are replete with contractual arrangements between landlords who owned large herds and groves and the shepherds and guardsmen who tended their flocks and foodstuffs as specialized laborers. The advent of large scale animal husbandry and irrigated agriculture together with the connection to the world by vast trade networks is part of the legacy of Mesopotamia. Fenced in groves and secure animal pens would have been commonplace.

For over two thousand years the commercial center of the world was Babylonia, where the Jews languished in exile. Here kings claimed dominion over the four quarters of the earth and the earth’s markets could be reached by following one of its four great waterways to the North, South, East and West.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The existence of Bigfoot is more believable than the Garden of Eden being in Missouri or that the lands and peoples of the BoM actually existed.

 

[dzheremi]

True. At least we have footage of Bigfoot to examine.

 

[dzheremi]

I notice that you did not answer my response to 'think about' the Israel dispersion

Because it rests upon false Mormon presuppositions that aren't even true in the first place, so I can't answer it according to how it was presented but to say that it is false from the beginning. It's the equivalent to asking a man "When did you stop beating your wife?"

and the possibility that Israel is in many places in the world, including the Americas

Israel is in many places around the world, as the Church is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).

at the time of Christ

Nope. There was no Church in the Americas at that time.

and that in order for him to fulfill his mission, he very well may have visited Israel in other parts of the earth after his death and resurrection and ascension.

Do you know what the word "ascension" means? Because this sentence makes no sense.

And Christ was risen in the Holy Land, obviously, since that's where He was from and lived during His time here on earth. So it also makes no sense to say He "visited" there after His resurrection. You can't be a visitor where you already live.

 

[BigDaddy4]

True. At least we have footage of Bigfoot to examine.

Yep.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow. That takes me back. I loved that movie as a kid. And John Lithgow still had hair, kinda! Amazing. That's easily as much of a miracle as Joseph Smith translating the BOM or the Book of Abraham or whatever.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes, it's a nostalgic favorite of mine as well, since several parts of it were filmed locally. According to the Finding Bigfoot TV series, I apparently live in the "the squatchiest state."

Finding Bigfoot - Wikipedia

The TV series examines so-called evidences of Bigfoot sightings. There are "Bigfoot enthusiasts" who claim Bigfoot is real via footprints, hair samples, video clips, and sound recordings. This would be more tangible evidence for being real than the BoM has to offer.

And, for the record, I believe neither of them are real.

 

[Peter1000]

DNA evidence shows that the native Americans came over from Asia and not Israel.

Have you read all of the DNA articles about DNA in America? Probably about 100 studies now and 10,000 pages of commentary. Which one did you read?

 

[Peter1000]

We may not know all the rivers--yet. But one thing we do know---they are not in Missouri!! Not one single, tiny, little bit of Evidence to even come close to Missouri!


11 The name of the first is Pishon; that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

The name Pishon comes from the root puwsh,6 which means to grow fat, spread out, or be scattered. If a traveler went south on the Tigris this is exactly the condition they would find as the river gives way to marshland.

12 and the gold of that land is good; there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

Following the river into the sea and continuing along its eastern bank will take a traveler around the harsh deserts of southern Iran and Pakistan. Indeed the word Havilah can be traced to the root chuwl which means circular, to twist or whirl, or writhe in pain and the root chowl which means sand.7

The identification of Havilah as a source for bdellium, a resin for incense making, and onyx further points to Iran and Pakistan. The Greek writer Theophrastus,8 and Pliny the Elder9 both identified areas in Afghanistan as the source of bdellium and even today Pakistan is one of the few suppliers of Onyx.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Gihon comes from the root giyach10 which means to gush forth. This may well have described how an ancient traveler would experience the mighty Euphrates as it finally emptied into the Persian Gulf. By following the western bank of this course the traveler would eventually find themselves rounding the Arabian peninsula and encountering Africa wherein lies the expected land of Cush, ancient Ethiopia.




The Four Rivers of Eden -Arianna Ravenswood

14 And the name of the third river is Tigris; that is it which goeth toward the east of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Modern maps still show how the Tigris River follows the eastern flank of the land known as Assyria by the Greeks and Asshur by its inhabitants. The Euphrates was presumably so well known that it needed no appellation. This leaves us with four rivers that are joined by canals forming a large x-shaped river network.

So where does this place the garden? If we look for a river that flows out of the steppe and enters near the joint course of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers the eye cannot help but be drawn to the Diyala River in eastern Iraq. Even today Iraq’s Diyala Province is known for its oranges and boasts one of the largest olive groves in the region.

Was the Garden of Eden really a trading port near the Diyala River?

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

The description of the garden frames it as being the center of a trade network. Locating the Garden of Eden based on the worldview of merchant trade coincides with the actual term for garden in the ancient text which is gan.11 The word gan specifically refers to a fenced in area that was likely used to corral animals as well as to secure property, in this case presumably for trade.

The introduction of man into the garden to “dress and keep” further reveals the language of commerce. The term “dress” is abad12 in Hebrew. Abad means to serve as a laborer or in this case perhaps as a husbandman. This meaning is reinforced by the word “keep” which in the ancient text is shamar,13 a word that means to stand guard over.

The records from ancient Iraq are replete with contractual arrangements between landlords who owned large herds and groves and the shepherds and guardsmen who tended their flocks and foodstuffs as specialized laborers. The advent of large scale animal husbandry and irrigated agriculture together with the connection to the world by vast trade networks is part of the legacy of Mesopotamia. Fenced in groves and secure animal pens would have been commonplace.

For over two thousand years the commercial center of the world was Babylonia, where the Jews languished in exile. Here kings claimed dominion over the four quarters of the earth and the earth’s markets could be reached by following one of its four great waterways to the North, South, East and West.

OK, with all this speculation, tell me you know exactly where Eden is and a river that ran out of it and split into 4 rivers, 2 of them compassing 2 different lands. Compassing means that the rivers were around the perimeter of the lands.

IOW you could not show me such a configuration. That is why this Eden has a ? by it, because nobody can show me where Eden is and the river configurations as written in Genesis.

But thank you for the good try, it is fun to speculate about Eden.

 

[Peter1000]

What are you talking about, Peter? Of course we've found the Euphrates. It's one of the two major rivers in Iraq, and also travels through parts of Syria and Turkey. The other river is Tigris. These two rivers are so essentially associated with Iraq, that the Assyrians who live there call their country/territory (which is larger than present-day Iraq, which is only part of historical Mesopotamia) Beth Nahrain, which is Assyrian for "Land of the two Rivers", referring precisely to the Tigris and the Euphrates. (The name that we know for this historical land, Mesopotamia, is Greek for "(Land) between rivers".)

Here is a modern Assyrian singer from Iran, Evin Aghassi, singing a patriotic song about the Assyrians' desire for an independent homeland, appropriately called "Beth Nahrain":

As these people still exist, and their rivers/country still exist, I don't know what the heck you're saying by asking if we've "discovered" said rivers. People have lived along and known about the Tigris and the Euphrates literally forever. This land is the site of the world's very earliest civilizations, after all. Writing developed here (probably independently of the same development in Egypt). The Garden of Eden is said to have been located here (or so goes the local tradition; the Armenians and a few others have their own traditions which locate it within their regions...surprise, surprise). There probably is still a lot to discover here (assuming people can get to it before ISIS does), but the major rivers that literally have defined the territory/empire/country for millennia are not one of them.

Apparently Hiddekel is another name (I'm assuming from Hebrew or another language) for the Tigris. When you put "Hiddekel river" into Google, the results it returns are all about the Tigris. The Pison or Pishon was apparently also found in Mesopotamia.

Where you think the Gihon is depends on what you identify with the ancient kingdom of Kush/Ethiopia. Obviously, there is modern day Ethiopia, which is one of the oldest continuously-existing countries in the world, but it's not clear whether or not the use of "Ethiopia" in the Bible necessarily refers to the same territory. In fact, it is almost impossible that it would, as Ethiopia's borders have changed considerably since ancient times, even since the establishment of the Axumite empire, which would have been long after Genesis was written. (Established circa 100 AD.) Still some Ethiopians and even Western scholars who specialize in Ethiopian history identify the Gihon with the Blue Nile, which runs through their country. See especially the comments of Herodotus (not because he's very reliable, but because he's very, very old) as found on the Gihon article on Wikipedia. Apparently there could have been an "Ethiopia" in Asia, as well as the one in Africa.

Now that you have answers to your questions to the extent that anyone does (I wouldn't want to claim that we know where things are if we do not, but it's worth remembering that these are just names people apply to natural features of the earth, so unless the earth has changed -- by the rivers changing their course or drying up or something like that -- those rivers are definitely out there, they're just probably not known by those names anymore), please answer the questions asked for you.

Well, I would agree that those rivers are definitely out there, they're just probably not known by those names any more. That's a good explanation for not being able to identify Eden, the river Pison, Gihon, Hiddekel, and Euphrates (maybe this one, at least by name).

But now put your money where your mouth is and tell with a certainty where Eden is. You can't, and I don't blame you. But for you to mock JS for saying Eden is in the U.S., is a little bit interesting because you can't tell me where it is either. So until you have for sure found Eden, I still have the right to think it is in the U.S., without your snardy remarks.

We in the Church of Jesus Christ, believe that Zarahemla is definitely out there, it is just probably not known by that name any more, just like Eden and the 4 rivers. You summed it up nicely. Thank you.

 

[drstevej]

The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are found in southwestern Asia, in an area also known Asia Minor and Transcaucasia. The Tigris and Euphrates rivers have been flowing for thousands of years and have been documented as being part of the start civilization (Reed). Over the years, archaeological discoveries have uncovered multiple irrigation systems that diverted portions of the rivers for farming, and civil uses. It was these early irrigation systems that brought together early societies that formed “agrarian” societies (Reed), and the land became better known as the “fertile crescent” due to the abundance of water and fertile soils.

source

Still looking for Heavenly Mother...... Maybe her name is Zarahemla.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Have you read all of the DNA articles about DNA in America? Probably about 100 studies now and 10,000 pages of commentary. Which one did you read?

It’s sad to see someone who wants so badly something to be true that he’s willing to lie to himself and everyone else to make it so.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Have you read all of the DNA articles about DNA in America? Probably about 100 studies now and 10,000 pages of commentary. Which one did you read?

I read the correct ones. The ones that show that native Americans aren’t Jewish.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Have you read all of the DNA articles about DNA in America? Probably about 100 studies now and 10,000 pages of commentary. Which one did you read?

It’s just plain foolishness. I feel like I’m arguing with someone who has been brainwashed.

 

[dzheremi]

Well, I would agree that those rivers are definitely out there, they're just probably not known by those names any more. That's a good explanation for not being able to identify Eden, the river Pison, Gihon, Hiddekel, and Euphrates (maybe this one, at least by name).

Again, the Hiddekel is just another name for the Tigris, apparently. So that one is located in the real world, too. Having a different name in another language doesn't make it a different physical location. The Germans call their own country Deutschland, but it's not located in a different place than Germany is.

But now put your money where your mouth is and tell with a certainty where Eden is. You can't, and I don't blame you.

As already linked to, local traditions dating back many centuries say it was located in, or at least inspired by, a region in Mesopotamia/modern Iraq. I don't personally think it was an actually-existing place, however, as I don't think Genesis is a geography textbook. It's mostly an allegory about exile and other things the Jews were going through at the time. But if you wanted to try to locate it somewhere in the world, you'd do better looking in that region than in Missouri or anywhere else in the New World, as the text of Genesis came out of the ancient Near East, not the modern United States like Joseph Smith did.

But for you to mock JS for saying Eden is in the U.S., is a little bit interesting because you can't tell me where it is either.

The difference is that I am not trying to. It doesn't mean anything to me one way or another to say that the Garden of Eden was in Iraq or not. Joseph Smith, however, made declarative statements about a bunch of things that are just laughably stupid. If Joseph Smith had just kept his mouth shut on all of this stuff (the location of the Garden of Eden, the ancestry of the Native Americans, the existence of Reformed Egyptian, etc.), then he wouldn't have put his believers such as yourself through such humiliation by having to assert that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri, that Native Americans are ancient Hebrew Israelites, and so on just to be considered faithful to Joseph's restoration.

So until you have for sure found Eden, I still have the right to think it is in the U.S.,

You have the right to believe whatever you want in any circumstance, Peter.

without your snardy remarks.

Snarkiness is in the eye of the beholder. I'd like to think I'm being factual, insofar as I am not claiming to have evidence of things that I do not actually have, unlike Joseph Smith, who claimed all kinds of crazy nonsense with no evidence at all because there weren't as many effective ways to challenge a person in those days, when we did not have DNA studies that prove where the Native Americans did (and didn't) come from, Champollion's translations of the hieroglyphs were not widely available, etc. Now that we have all of that stuff that we did not have then, if you choose to continue to believe in Joseph Smith's fanciful lies, that's on you. I'm not going to hold my tongue about it, however. Joseph Smith is quite simply wrong, and always has been, and appeals to not having 'found' a possibly mythical place don't change that. You are arguing from absence, which weakens your claims considerably. It doesn't meet any threshold of evidence to claim that such and such is believable because it isn't found. Tons of things are not found, despite being asserted by their believers that they do nevertheless exist: Bigfoot, aliens, lizard people, etc. Are you going to advocate that people believe in those, too? I'm going to guess probably not.

We in the Church of Jesus Christ

...of Latter Day Saints. (Have your leaders not said lately that they want all members to use the full name of your religious organization?)

Christians are in the Church of Jesus Christ. Mormonism is something else.

believe that Zarahemla is definitely out there

Okay. That doesn't mean it actually exists or ever did. Your belief in something doesn't make it real.

it is just probably not known by that name any more, just like Eden and the 4 rivers.

No, the difference between your belief as a Mormon in the existence of Zarahemla is that there is no tradition concerning it that predates Joseph Smith, so there is not way to credibly claim that he didn't just make it up. By contrast, the Tigris and the Euphrates have been known (by those names) for millennia to be located exactly where they are still located to this day. Even the story of Eden, which is not known to have ever really existed, still dates back many, many, many centuries in that same part of the world; it cannot conceivably be said to be the creation of one man, let alone one modern man.

You summed it up nicely. Thank you.

You're welcome.