Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Pneuma3

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There are more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible One of those is hyperbole. which is derived from the Greek word ὑπερβάλλω/uperballo.
Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.
Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?
Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.
Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth
Did "all the world" worship the goddess Diana?
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Was the faith of the Romans literally spoke of "throughout the whole world?" Or are all these verses using "world" hyperbolically?
.....Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The word "world" does not, cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it is used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other adjectives and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in this verses.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.



LOL or maybe it is just hyperbole, as we know Jesus only reigns UNTIL..... then gives up the kingdom to the Father that God might be all in all.

But then again you probably think God be all in all is just hyperbole
 
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Der Alte

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LOL or maybe it is just hyperbole, as we know Jesus only reigns UNTIL..... then gives up the kingdom to the Father that God might be all in all.
But then again you probably think God be all in all is just hyperbole
The typical heterodox UR out-of-context proof text.
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
Revelation 22:3-5
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
(4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the lamb vs. 3] shall reign for ever and ever.
 
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Pneuma3

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The typical heterodox UR out-of-context proof text.
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
Revelation 22:3-5
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
(4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the lamb vs. 3] shall reign for ever and ever.

boy you do have a hard time putting two and two together.

Jesus reigns only until the last enemy is defeated, then give up the kingdom to the Father that God will be all in all.

What you are doing is taking one scripture and ignoring any scripture that is contrary to what you want that scripture to say, thus you fail to follow precept upon precept and line upon line, you build you whole doctrine around ONE single misunderstood word and you can't even see that.
 
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<P3>boy you do have a hard time putting two and two together.
Jesus reigns only until the last enemy is defeated, then give up the kingdom to the Father that God will be all in all.
What you are doing is taking one scripture and ignoring any scripture that is contrary to what you want that scripture to say, thus you fail to follow precept upon precept and line upon line, you build you whole doctrine around ONE single misunderstood word and you can't even see that.
<end>
Have you ever considered that it might be your interpretation of your proof text is in error because you are not following your own advice "follow precept upon precept and line upon line?" And you are building your doctrine on one verse and ignoring the two verses I quoted. When you consider all scripture the UR doctrine is blown away.
Revelation 22:3-5
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
(4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and
they [God and the lamb vs. 3] shall reign for ever and ever
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>boy you do have a hard time putting two and two together.
Jesus reigns only until the last enemy is defeated, then give up the kingdom to the Father that God will be all in all.
What you are doing is taking one scripture and ignoring any scripture that is contrary to what you want that scripture to say, thus you fail to follow precept upon precept and line upon line, you build you whole doctrine around ONE single misunderstood word and you can't even see that.
<end>
Have you ever considered that it might be your interpretation of your proof text is in error because you are not following your own advice "follow precept upon precept and line upon line?" And you are building your doctrine on one verse and ignoring the two verses I quoted. When you consider all scripture the UR doctrine is blown away.
Revelation 22:3-5
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
(4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and
they [God and the lamb vs. 3] shall reign for ever and ever
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

This is what I know DA, scripture plainly tells us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world/all men and we are commanded to teach exactly that and I gave you 7 scriptures confirming this. Thus if Jesus is the saviour of the world then aionios torment simply cannot be true, thus aionios cannot mean without end. Also I gave you repeatedly the scripture stating the aions come to an end. When you add this all up believing the plain meaning of scripture then your understanding is simply in error.
 
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Der Alte

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<P3>This is what I know DA, scripture plainly tells us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world/all men and we are commanded to teach exactly that and I gave you 7 scriptures confirming this. Thus if Jesus is the saviour of the world then aionios torment simply cannot be true, thus aionios cannot mean without end. Also I gave you repeatedly the scripture stating the aions come to an end. When you add this all up believing the plain meaning of scripture then your understanding is simply in error.<end>
None of this even comes close to addressing my post. My Bible has 31,172 verses, yours apparently only has 7. Now let us use that kind of reasoning on these 2 verses, Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 say there is no God.
 
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ClementofA

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When you consider all scripture the UR doctrine is blown away.

Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Those in the heavens (Eph.1:10) include spiritually wicked beings:

Eph.6:12 because we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of evil in the heavenlies.

So, they, also, will be saved "in Christ" as per Eph.1:10.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>This is what I know DA, scripture plainly tells us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world/all men and we are commanded to teach exactly that and I gave you 7 scriptures confirming this. Thus if Jesus is the saviour of the world then aionios torment simply cannot be true, thus aionios cannot mean without end. Also I gave you repeatedly the scripture stating the aions come to an end. When you add this all up believing the plain meaning of scripture then your understanding is simply in error.<end>
None of this even comes close to addressing my post. My Bible has 31,172 verses, yours apparently only has 7. Now let us use that kind of reasoning on these 2 verses, Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 say there is no God.

and how do those scriptures prove your point that Jesus Christ is not the saviour of the world?
 
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and how do those scriptures prove your point that Jesus Christ is not the saviour of the world?
My post again. None of this even comes close to addressing my post. My Bible has 31,172 verses, yours apparently only has 7. Now let us use that kind of reasoning on these 2 verses, Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 say there is no God.
.....Try reading these two verses and tell me if they say "there is no God" or not? This is a demonstration of how reading/quoting a verse out-of-context can change the meaning. Now concerning your 7 or so proof texts. Please show me any verse where Jesus, Himself, or God, Himself, is speaking which states that all mankind will be saved no matter what even after death.
.....It is true that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." But note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “
I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. I don't know of any verse which says that God will at some point will have mercy and pity and save them.

 
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ClementofA

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My post again. None of this even comes close to addressing my post. My Bible has 31,172 verses, yours apparently only has 7. Now let us use that kind of reasoning on these 2 verses, Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 say there is no God.
Try reading these two verses and tell me if they say "there is no God" or not? This is a demonstration of how reading/quoting a verse out-of-context can change the meaning. Now concerning your 7 or so proof texts. Please show me any verse where Jesus, Himself, or God, Himself, is speaking which states that all mankind will be saved no matter what even after death. It is true that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." But note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “
I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. I don't know of any verse which says that God will at some point will have mercy and pity and save them.



Note this passage from Jeremiah.
You keep trying to shift the burden of proof to me when it is all yours. Here is what scripture says.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
God is speaking in this verse, Can you show me any verse where God Himself is speaking, not Paul or some other writer, said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jer 13:14.,
because they rejected Him, "Oops I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy and save them?

If He didn't have pity - as regards the particular judgment in view - of the context - and killed them, how does that address what happens to them postmortem? Does He say
that after He destroys/kills them that He will - never - have mercy on them in the afterlife also? Or is the passage completely silent about any postmortem consequences?
Does the context even mention "hell"? No. Compare this a few chapters later from the same book & author:

Jeremiah 21:7
"Then afterwards," declares the LORD, "I will give over Zedekiah king of Judah and his servants and the people, even those who survive in this city from the pestilence, the
sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their foes and into the hand of those who seek their lives; and he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword. He will not spare them nor have pity nor compassion."

Which proves the "not sparing" & not "having pity" is related to this life only and the particular judgement in view - in the context - i.e. being killed..."he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword". It has nothing to do with anything beyond this life, or postmortem consequences.

Show me where that quote or context says after He destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that He would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do
that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says
destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us
for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Pneuma3

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My post again. None of this even comes close to addressing my post. My Bible has 31,172 verses, yours apparently only has 7. Now let us use that kind of reasoning on these 2 verses, Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 say there is no God.
.....Try reading these two verses and tell me if they say "there is no God" or not? This is a demonstration of how reading/quoting a verse out-of-context can change the meaning. Now concerning your 7 or so proof texts. Please show me any verse where Jesus, Himself, or God, Himself, is speaking which states that all mankind will be saved no matter what even after death.

Just saying I am taking things out of context does not make it so. I have asked you before to read the context and see for yourself.

You have yet to do that.

You have to prove that the 7 scriptures I gave are out of context, you just can't say they are. Talk about saying nuh hah i am right and your are wrong, which you accuse me of doing all the time.

So go ahead and explain why those 7 scriptures do not mean what they say via context.

Here is another thing for you to consider.

What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.
 
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Der Alte

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<p3>Just saying I am taking things out of context does not make it so. I have asked you before to read the context and see for yourself.
You have yet to do that.
You have to prove that the 7 scriptures I gave are out of context, you just can't say they are. Talk about saying nuh hah i am right and your are wrong, which you accuse me of doing all the time.
So go ahead and explain why those 7 scriptures do not mean what they say via context.
Here is another thing for you to consider.
What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.<end>
Context does not involve only verses in close proximity, it also involves the context of the entire Bible. Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."
 
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ClementofA

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.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."
? said:
Yes, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are still in hell, because they never repented of their sin and turned to God.

Neither Jude 1:7 nor any other passage of Sacred Scripture supports that statement.

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/jude/1.htm

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as your posted version says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aioniou".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

http://concordant.org/expositions/h...efuted/reply-universalism-refuted-part-seven/

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

Jude doesn't refer to the fire burning in some "hell" somewhere. Rather he refers to a punishment whose effects were observable to the human eye.

Obviously fire & brimstone "destroyed" Sodom & the other cities:

Gen.19:24 Then the LORD rained down brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus He DESTROYED these CITIES and the entire plain, including all the INHABITANTS of the cities and everything that grew on the ground

Both the "cities" & the "inhabitants" received that destroying fire (Gen.19:24). Likewise Jude 1:7 refers to both the "cities" & the inhabitants who sinned:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.(CLV)

7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing. (Ro)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before—an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (YLT)

The "example" is translated as "specimen" in the CLV above. Thayer's Greek lexicon says the Greek word (Strongs #1164, DEIGMA) for such translations means "a. properly, thing shown" & "b. a specimen of anything, example, pattern".

The CLV above says "lying before us". This is a translation of Strongs Greek word # 4295 (prokeimai). Thayer gives the meanings of it as "1. properly, to lie or be placed before (a person or thing), or in front" & "2. to be set before, i. e., a. to be placed before the eyes, to lie in sight; to stand forth".

So, therefore, as i've previously said:

Jude 1:7 refers to the "cities", which housed the populations. Obviously both were destroyed by the aioniou fire. You can go to Israel today & see the brimstone. So Jude 1:7 says they "are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian". Jude doesn't say they are in the unseen underworld where no living human being can see them. Instead, he says, they are lying right here in front of our eyes, where anyone can see them, undergoing the justice of the eonian fire. But only until Sodom is restored (Ezek. 16).
 
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ClementofA

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Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
..

Jer.13:7-14 does - not - say that. It says God - caused - them to cleave to Him.

As to the purpose of God Almighty, Love Omnipotent, being fulfilled:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...oes-all-he-desires-all-will-be-saved.8056763/



 
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Pneuma3

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<p3>Just saying I am taking things out of context does not make it so. I have asked you before to read the context and see for yourself.
You have yet to do that.
You have to prove that the 7 scriptures I gave are out of context, you just can't say they are. Talk about saying nuh hah i am right and your are wrong, which you accuse me of doing all the time.
So go ahead and explain why those 7 scriptures do not mean what they say via context.
Here is another thing for you to consider.
What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.<end>

Context does not involve only verses in close proximity, it also involves the context of the entire Bible. Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."

And all of scripture practically screams out judgment unto restoration. You simply stop at judgment and cannot or refuse to see the restoration.
 
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Pneuma3

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<p3>Just saying I am taking things out of context does not make it so. I have asked you before to read the context and see for yourself.
You have yet to do that.
You have to prove that the 7 scriptures I gave are out of context, you just can't say they are. Talk about saying nuh hah i am right and your are wrong, which you accuse me of doing all the time.
So go ahead and explain why those 7 scriptures do not mean what they say via context.
Here is another thing for you to consider.
What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.<end>

Context does not involve only verses in close proximity, it also involves the context of the entire Bible. Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."
 
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Pneuma3

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<p3>Just saying I am taking things out of context does not make it so. I have asked you before to read the context and see for yourself.
You have yet to do that.
You have to prove that the 7 scriptures I gave are out of context, you just can't say they are. Talk about saying nuh hah i am right and your are wrong, which you accuse me of doing all the time.
So go ahead and explain why those 7 scriptures do not mean what they say via context.
Here is another thing for you to consider.
What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.<end>

Context does not involve only verses in close proximity, it also involves the context of the entire Bible. Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."
I am not misreading or misrepresenting anything you just don't want or cannot see that which God destroyed by is restored. In other words you do not believe the example.
 
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JM001

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So I'm back because I literally got confirmation by God on this.... I was thinking about this for a bit, I prayed about it and asked God for the answer. I opened up a random verse and it was about the wicked perishing. Right then and there I knew what God told me.

Another revelation I found: there is absolutely no verse in the bible that claims the soul will literally be tormented forever. Not a single one. In fact, I will challenge you. Try to find one verse where it says wicked souls will be under eternal conscious torment. You can't because it's not there. People have been so indoctrinated by this lie and the bible has been twisted.

Here is what scripture says:
- The lake of fire is eternal
- The fallen angels will be tormented forever
- Hell is a real place where the wicked will suffer (not eternally) but they will burn to death
- Talks about eternal punishment, meaning death. Talks about death being the punishment for sin everywhere in scripture.

People who believe in eternal torment reference these verses, but nowhere does it say the souls will experience eternal torment! Show me one verse where you believe it and I will refute it easily without twisting the word of God. Believe me, I've looked at every verse that talks about hell to get confirmation on this.

Please mods, WHY is this view "controversial"...? Why is it in this section? Why isn't eternal hell controversial? The state of Christianity today really hurts my soul. People have it backwards, given this topic is in the controversial section as if it has no biblical merit and it is on the same level as universalism. Universalism and eternal torment have more in common in being lies than annihilation does. I may be blocked for saying this, but shame on you guys. Claiming biblical truth is "controversial" and acting as if what the catholic church taught is more valid than what the bible teaches. Why are so many fundamentalists so deceived by this lie in the Christian community today and WHY is it considered unbiblical by many when in fact it is the opposite and eternal torment is controversial and unbiblical? The punishment being death IS NOT biblical. It was not this way before the catholic church, every follower of Christ knew the punishment was death and everyone was in full agreement. I realize this isn't a salvation issue obviously but it just makes me very sad, what causes this opposition? Is it brainwashing or what? I will never understand it.
 
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TuxAme

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So I'm back because I literally got confirmation by God on this.... I was thinking about this for a bit, I prayed about it and asked God for the answer. I opened up a random verse and it was about the wicked perishing. Right then and there I knew what God told me.

Another revelation I found: there is absolutely no verse in the bible that claims the soul will literally be tormented forever. Not a single one. In fact, I will challenge you. Try to find one verse where it says wicked souls will be under eternal conscious torment. You can't because it's not there. People have been so indoctrinated by this lie and the bible has been twisted.

Here is what scripture says:
- The lake of fire is eternal
- The fallen angels will be tormented forever
- Hell is a real place where the wicked will suffer (not eternally) but they will burn to death
- Talks about eternal punishment, meaning death. Talks about death being the punishment for sin everywhere in scripture.

People who believe in eternal torment reference these verses, but nowhere does it say the souls will experience eternal torment! Show me one verse where you believe it and I will refute it easily without twisting the word of God. Believe me, I've looked at every verse that talks about hell to get confirmation on this.

Please mods, WHY is this view "controversial"...? Why is it in this section? Why isn't eternal hell controversial? The state of Christianity today really hurts my soul. People have it backwards, given this topic is in the controversial section as if it has no biblical merit and it is on the same level as universalism. Universalism and eternal torment have more in common in being lies than annihilation does. I may be blocked for saying this, but shame on you guys. Claiming biblical truth is "controversial" and acting as if what the catholic church taught is more valid than what the bible teaches. Why are so many fundamentalists so deceived by this lie in the Christian community today and WHY is it considered unbiblical by many when in fact it is the opposite and eternal torment is controversial and unbiblical? The punishment being death IS NOT biblical. It was not this way before the catholic church, every follower of Christ knew the punishment was death and everyone was in full agreement. I realize this isn't a salvation issue obviously but it just makes me very sad, what causes this opposition? Is it brainwashing or what? I will never understand it.
How can you say with certainty that God told you anything? Especially when it contradicts the writings of the first Christians?

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). Justin Martyr


"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 181]). Irenaeus

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]). Tertullian


This is what rebellion against Church authority has brought us: a smorgasbord of opposing doctrines, all claiming to be inspired by God but all at odds with what His own Church has decreed.


 
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DM25

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I was actually the one who posted that. I accidentally logged into my old account.

How can you say with certainty that God told you anything? Especially when it contradicts the writings of the first Christians?

Did you read my entire post? He gave me the ability to discern the truth of this topic because I asked him, and you are wrong because the earliest Christians all knew the truth. I will easily refute your argument with every single quote you have below:

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). Justin Martyr

Eternal punishment: Death is literally eternal punishment. The lack of life is punishment. God is life! The bible says so. The wicked will be separated from God. If God is life, the absence of God is death. This is the literal eternal punishment. Eternal separation from God, no life, meaning death.

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 181]). Irenaeus

Ok, so what exactly are you trying to argue here? This just proves my point above. The dead will not come back to God, meaning the punishment isn't tempral. They won't have a second chance, meaning God is just in that. This also means universalism is a false teaching. Eternal punishment, death, this is the punishment. What is so hard to understand? It states this everywhere and this quote just continues to prove my point.

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]). Tertullian
Again, the bible never says the conscious torment will be forever. It says the fire will be forever, there is a difference. The death (the punishment) is unending and the fire won't go out, however the conscious torment? It doesn't say that aspect of it is eternal anywhere!
 
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