Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[jayem]

It seems you believe a perfect God should allow everyone salvation even those like you who reject him?

If “salvation” to you mean an eternal afterlife, then you are totally wrong. I don’t believe any such thing exists. For anyone. This life is the only one we have, or will ever have. When we die, that’s it. Lights out. Oblivion. Whatever we do during our lives, we have to deal with the consequences during our lifetimes. I know a lot of people will think this is a depressing and futile view of life. But, to me, it’s reality as I see it.

BTW: Though I reject the idea of any afterlife reckoning, I do believe that what goes around comes around. If you’re a jerk who treats people like dirt, you’re probably gonna be treated the same eventually. If you want the only life you’ll ever have to be happy and fulfilling, then you should always try to make other’s lives the same. But eternal life—salvation or damnation? Gotta be honest—to me it’s just wishful thinking.

 

[Strathos]

If “salvation” to you mean an eternal afterlife, then you are totally wrong. I don’t believe any such thing exists. For anyone. This life is the only one we have, or will ever have. When we die, that’s it. Lights out. Oblivion. Whatever we do during our lives, we have to deal with the consequences during our lifetimes. I know a lot of people will think this is a depressing and futile view of life. But, to me, it’s reality as I see it.

BTW: Though I reject the idea of any afterlife reckoning, I do believe that what goes around comes around. If you’re a jerk who treats people like dirt, you’re probably gonna be treated the same eventually. If you want the only life you’ll ever have to be happy and fulfilling, then you should always try to make other’s lives the same. But eternal life—salvation or damnation? Gotta be honest—to me it’s just wishful thinking.

But would you find eternal life desirable if you believed it was a possibility?

 

[Tinker Grey]

But would you find eternal life desirable if you believed it was a possibility?

No

 

[jayem]

But would you find eternal life desirable if you believed it was a possibility?

That's incomprehensible to me. It's way beyond the realm of my thinking. It could be awful. Remember the old Twilight Zone TV series? The lead character in one episode is an unsavory low-life gambler, down on his luck. IIRC, he's hit by a car and knocked out (or has some other accident.) When he comes to, a bystander offers to put him up in hotel. The place is a palace, and he has a suite fit for royalty. Fine clothes in the closet, the best food, wine and liquor--anything he wants. A casino where he wins every bet he places. And beautiful women at his beck and call. He can't believe it's happening. It's what he's always dreamed of. But after a couple of weeks, he's miserable. What's the thrill in gambling, when you win every time? And it gets to be bore when every luxury is yours for the asking. Of course, he finds out that he died in the accident. He's now in a place where for all eternity, he gets eveything he's ever wanted. But it's definitely not heaven.

 

[quatona]

Hey hey my newest friend

Well lets follow the flow of our discussion.

Quatona - "Try to understand that me lacking a belief is due to my lack of any experiences (observations of facts, events) that would point to the existence of the thing I lack belief in."

Icon - "What experience would you need to have a belief in God?"

Quatona - "I don´t know, I can´t make predictions like that."

Icon - "You know what you would not accept as evidence re God but dont know what you would accept?"

Quatona - "No, not what I said."

Then what did you say?

"Try to understand that me lacking a belief is due to my lack of any experiences (observations of facts, events) that would point to the existence of the thing I lack belief in."

Please escuse me I mean no offense. Could you please indulge me and be so kind as to tell me what experience would you need or want for the existance of God?

Has been addressed.



Quatona - "Try to understand that me lacking a belief is due to my lack of any experiences (observations of facts, events) that would point to the existence of the thing I lack belief in."

Icon - "Do you want to be convinced?"

Quatona - "This isn´t a thing of what I want or don´t want"

Icon - "Why not, to be convinced is to cause to believe firmly in the truth of something. You have been convinced that there is no God. What has convinced you that there is no God?"

Quatona - "No."

Please excuse me my friend, iam confused. You say that your rejection of God is due to your lack of experiences.

An experience is also an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone. Oservations or facts that leave an impression.

Which would cause you to believe firmly in the truth of something (.eg the definition of convinced). The experience would convince you.

What do you mean by no?

No you do not want to be convinced - which would contradict your original statement - or no to what?

I neither want to be convinced nor do not want to be convinced.
Don´t project wishful thinking on me.

And no, I do not belief firmly in the nonexistence of Gods.

Quatona - "What makes you think it is unappealing to me?"

Icon - [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Is it appealing to you? Why?"

Quatona - "no".

Please excuse me, is the notion of God appealing or unappealing to you?

Neither. Plus it would be irrelevant.

Please excuse me. What statements would you like me to address?

If you want a conversation with me, you would have to address statements I made - not make up positions for me.

A "why do you" is not a loaded question. That is a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information.

A loaded question is presumption of guilt ie do you still beat your wife. Please excuse me, you ssem to have misunderstood what a loaded question is.

A loaded question is a question loaded with a faulty assumption. Look it up. Guilt isn´t necessarily part of it.
I just am tired of repeating "that´s not what I said, that´s not what I think, that´s not what I believe,..." in response to your mistaken assumptions.

 

[Allandavid]

Hey hey allandavid

What observation of reality - or lack of observation - leads you to that conclusion?

For the umpteenth time....the absolute absence of any evidence to support the notion of existence of god/s...

Please correct me if im wrong, the premise is if i or anyone else could supply evidence to you that proves God exists, you would give Him your attention?

Correct.

If I could do this or it could be done, how would this effect your life and how would you pay attention to Him?

I don’t know. Let’s have you attend to that tiny task of providing evidence first...

How so? Could you please explain what you mean here?

Atheists do not, in the main, make the declaration that there is/are no god/s. Rather, we say we have no belief that there are gods, until such time that evidence is produced to support such a claim.

 

[the iconoclast]

For the umpteenth time....the absolute absence of any evidence to support the notion of existence of god/s...



Correct.



I don’t know. Let’s have you attend to that tiny task of providing evidence first...



Atheists do not, in the main, make the declaration that there is/are no god/s. Rather, we say we have no belief that there are gods, until such time that evidence is produced to support such a claim.

Hey hey allan david

What type of evidence would you like? What criteria would satisfy you?

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

"Try to understand that me lacking a belief is due to my lack of any experiences (observations of facts, events) that would point to the existence of the thing I lack belief in."

Hey hey my dear

What experience would you need to have a belief in God?

Has been addressed.

Please correct me if im wrong. You have not given any examples. It has not been adequately addressed

What experience would you need to have a belief in God?

I neither want to be convinced nor do not want to be convinced.

Don´t project wishful thinking on me.


And no, I do not belief firmly in the nonexistence of Gods.

Im confused. You do not belief firmly in the existance of God, nor do you believe in the non-existance of God. This reply seems confused.

What does this reply mean?

Neither. Plus it would be irrelevant.

Neither is not a acceptable answer. It is either one or the other, which one is it? How would it be irrelevant?

If you want a conversation with me, you would have to address statements I made - not make up positions for me.

I would love to. Please excuse me however iam not sure what they are. Im giving you an opportunity to tell me?

A loaded question is a question loaded with a faulty assumption. Look it up. Guilt isn´t necessarily part of it.

Ok. I do not mind being corrected. Could you show me where i commited the fallacy?

I just am tired of repeating "that´s not what I said, that´s not what I think, that´s not what I believe,..." in response to your mistaken assumptions.

Dont be rash. We have not entered the 'he said, she said'. What mistaken assumptions?


Ps
The statement made by @Allandavid must be the right way round therefore my statement was the right way round?

 

[Allandavid]

Hey hey allan david

What type of evidence would you like? What criteria would satisfy you?

Cheers

As others here have stated, I don’t know what exactly would do it. But, if it exists, your god would...

 

[Allandavid]

Im confused. You do not belief firmly in the existance of God, nor do you believe in the non-existance of God. This reply seems confused.

What does this reply mean?

Yes, you are very confused. And it’s because you are involved in black-white thinking.

Watch...

If you make the claim “my god exists”, I can reject that claim. Notice, I am not saying that your god doesn’t exist. I am simply not accepting your claim. And I am not accepting it because you provide no evidence to support your claim.

If, on the other hand, I make the statement that “no gods exist”, I am making a declaration that requires me to support it with evidence.

The two are different propositions and are independent of one another...

You’re welcome.

 

[the iconoclast]

As others here have stated, I don’t know what exactly would do it. But, if it exists, your god would...

Hey hey my dear

We are not focusing on others, we are focusing on you.

Why is it that you are certain to what evidence you would not accept but uncertain to what evidence you would accept?

If you do not know what evidence you would accept then you are not methodical. Your position is conformation bias?

Yes, you are very confused. And it’s because you are involved in black-white thinking.

Iam puzzled by your reply. You do not believe in the existance of God nor the non existence of God.

This statement contains a figure of speech in which contradictory terms appear in conjunction?

Please explain your statement that you neither believe the existance or non existance of God?

Watch...

I am watching sir.

If you make the claim “my god exists”, I can reject that claim. Notice, I am not saying that your god doesn’t exist. I am simply not accepting your claim. And I am not accepting it because you provide no evidence to support your claim.

Ok. The Christian God exists. What evidence would satisfy your criteria?

You are asking for proof, im asking for what proof you need?

If, on the other hand, I make the statement that “no gods exist”, I am making a declaration that requires me to support it with evidence.

Well lets say for fun you did make that claim and are making that claim now. How do you support your declaration woth evidence?

The two are different propositions and are independent of one another...

Unless i make a statement - "My God exists"

If you were to reply with "no gods exist". The two a linked.

You’re welcome.

Why thank you, you are most welcome my kind sir.

Cheers you

 

[Allandavid]

Hey hey my dear

We are not focusing on others, we are focusing on you.

Which is why I said “I don’t know”...please pay attention.

Why is it that you are certain to what evidence you would not accept

Nope. Didn’t say that...

I am puzzled by your reply. You do not believe in the existance of God nor the non existence of God.

Any puzzlement is your problem. Those two statements do not form a zero-sum game. I do not accept your claim about the existence of gods. I do not make the claim that gods do not exist. Those two statements stand alone.

Ok. The Christian God exists. What evidence would satisfy your criteria?

You are asking for proof, im asking for what proof you need?

Asked and answered. You’re becoming tedious.

Unless i make a statement - "My God exists"

If you were to reply with "no gods exist". The two a linked.

And....again...I have made no such reply...

 

[the iconoclast]

Nope. Didn’t say that...

Hey hey sir

Then what did u say?

Please dont give up. We are getting somewhere

Which is why I said “I don’t know”...please pay attention.

We have a conclusion. You know what you wont accept, you dont know what you will accept.

Doesnt sound very methodical, sounds like bias!

Any puzzlement is your problem. Those two statements do not form a zero-sum game. I do not accept your claim about the existence of gods. I do not make the claim that gods do not exist. Those two statements stand alone.

But what does it mean? You do not accept the claim that God does exist and you do not accept the claim that God does not exist!

I need you to please explain this unique position?

How can you hold unto these 2 positions at once, what am i missing? Are you unable to explain this?

 

[the iconoclast]

If “salvation” to you mean an eternal afterlife, then you are totally wrong

Hey hey friend

This statement interests me. How am i totally wrong?

Cheers

 

[Allandavid]

But what does it mean? You do not accept the claim that God does exist and you do not accept the claim that God does not exist!

I need you to please explain this unique position?

How can you hold unto these 2 positions at once, what am i missing? Are you unable to explain this?

Oh good grief...

I’ll try you once more....and then I’ve had enough of the tedium.

If you tell me that you have $5 million dollars in cases under your bed, but you can’t show me any evidence for your claim, I’m not going to accept it. I will withhold belief until you do.

However, I am not justified in saying that you definitely don’t have that money. There is a chance, no matter how tiny, that you might be telling the truth.

There...it’s as easy and straightforward as that. I can reject the claim for the existence of the money, while simultaneously not claiming its non-existence...

Now, unless you have something other than silly semantic games...?

 

[Freodin]

Ok. The Christian God exists. What evidence would satisfy your criteria?

You are asking for proof, im asking for what proof you need?

Hm... why do you even ask?

I could give you a very explicit scenario that would at least start to "satisty" my need for a "proof" for your claim that the Christian God exists.

And I can already tell you: if I were to tell you this piece of "evidence" that I would require - which isn't excessive or inappropriate - all I would get is excuses why I won't get it.

 

[jayem]

Hey hey friend

This statement interests me. How am i totally wrong?

Cheers

My statement wasn't directed at you. It was in response to a different post:

It seems you believe a perfect God should allow everyone salvation even those like you who reject him?

This post is incorrect because I don't believe there is any afterlife salvation or damnation for anyone.

That's always a problem in a long thread, with many different posters. It's hard to keep track of who said what.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But would you find eternal life desirable if you believed it was a possibility?

That's like Odysseus choosing between Scylla and Charybdis.

The alternative is this:

1) You have a fully human mind. And you are faced with eternal repetition of events which leads to great boredom. Eternity isn't just living for a trillion or so years. A trillion years is an infinitesimal start to your journey into endless life.

2) You no longer have a fully human mind. You aren't really yourself. You are condemned to an existence that isn't authentically you.

Either way, it is unlikely to be a good outcome.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Im confused.

Yep.

 

[Strathos]

That's like Odysseus choosing between Scylla and Charybdis.

The alternative is this:

1) You have a fully human mind. And you are faced with eternal repetition of events which leads to great boredom. Eternity isn't just living for a trillion or so years. A trillion years is an infinitesimal start to your journey into endless life.

2) You no longer have a fully human mind. You aren't really yourself. You are condemned to an existence that isn't authentically you.

Either way, it is unlikely to be a good outcome.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Our minds and souls will definitely be changed in Heaven, but your mistake is framing this as a bad thing. After all, you're a much different person than you were as a baby, and as a toddler, a child, a teenager, etc. In each case your mind expanded and your capacity for understanding increased. This is just the next step. Your argument would mean it would be immoral for children to grow up.