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We are not saved by works?

LightLoveHope

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We are the sheep. Brothers and sisters, when you look at your heart, and listen to Jesus how do you feel, condemned or rejoicing.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

Jesus is telling us, if you hear Him and follow Him, ie obey him you are His.
This should encourage us.

I talked with a goat who said they could not read Jesus's words without feeling condemnation. The joked how they sinned each day and were still saved.

They had no fear that actually they did not know or understand Jesus at all, which is
exactly what their heart was testifying to them. And the irony is, even telling them this
reality, I was the liar and evil one. Jesus said it like this

He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Luke 10:16

So I think the argument about faith and works has been derailed.
It should simply be, do you listen and obey Jesus or not?
If you listen to Him, you are His if you obey, you are not if you do not.

The irony also is it appears only His sheep accept His words which is not
surprising.
 
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ExTiff

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Let's back up a bit. Jesus said he "who believes and is baptized shall be saved."

We have a now two thousand year tradition of baptism in the Church. Yet you have taken upon yourself to tell people there is no need for baptism.

Where do you get that authority from?

I don't think anyone is saying there is no need for baptism. Baptism as a sign and seal of Christian profession is less of an inconvenience than martyrdom. What has been suggested has been that Baptism is not essential to salvation. In other words, it is possible for believing Christians to have saving faith in God's Grace, (which is what actually saves), but yet not actually be baptised yet. This sometimes happened to Christian martyrs who were killed before having opportunity to be baptised. The church ruled that they were saved anyway, even more certainly than baptised believers who had not died for Christ.

There was not considered to be any doubt whatever about the salvation of the martyrs, baptized or not.
.
 
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HTacianas

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I don't think anyone is saying there is no need for baptism. Baptism as a sign and seal of Christian profession is less of an inconvenience than martyrdom. What has been suggested has been that Baptism is not essential to salvation. In other words, it is possible for believing Christians to have saving faith in God's Grace, (which is what actually saves), but yet not actually be baptised yet. This sometimes happened to Christian martyrs who were killed before having opportunity to be baptised. The church ruled that they were saved anyway, even more certainly than baptised believers who had not died for Christ.

There was not considered to be any doubt whatever about the salvation of the martyrs, baptized or not.
.

Are you prepared to tell people that they have no need for baptism?
 
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Robin Mauro

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???

Hearing, believing, choosing? Those are all verbs. Actions


Works.
Thecoloresblend,
On a side note, I love that question, "If God is your father who is your mother?"
My favorite Bible is a Catholic Bible, and I think it is in the apocrypha where it says mother earth, but it might actually be in the protestant Bible; not just the apocrapha...I will have to look.
Anyway, I love that since we were made from earth (Adam). And I love that the phrase actually originated in the Bible.
But I have another theory too.
The Holy Spirit, and the spirit of wisdom are often called she, or her (feminine) in the Bible, so maybe they are the female part of God.
An unbeliever challenged me one time, that there was no female in the creator, and that it made no sense, and when I told him that, he said he was blown away and that he had never heard anyone say that before. :)
 
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Robin Mauro

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Let's back up a bit. Jesus said he "who believes and is baptized shall be saved."

We have a now two thousand year tradition of baptism in the Church. Yet you have taken upon yourself to tell people there is no need for baptism.

Where do you get that authority from?
I did not say that. I believe we should be baptized, but I believe the example of the man hanging next to Jesus on the cross shows that people, who for whatever reason, cannot be baptized (like death in his case), can still be saved.
I do not think Jesus is as legalistic as many believers are.
"All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
 
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ExTiff

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Are you prepared to tell people that they have no need for baptism?

No! But I am not superstitious about the absolute necessity of the performance of a physical ritual in order to receive God's forgiveness. God does not demand ritual, God renews hearts. Ezek.36:26; Rom.2:29, That is what we are talking about here. At what point a person receives the Holy Spirit and therefore are 'saved'. According to scripture 'hearing with faith' is what is required. Not subjecting to a ritual. Gal.3:2. Though once a person has 'heard and believed' there should be no reason for them to avoid baptism, unless they are already baptized. Acts.18:24-28.
.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Thecoloresblend,
On a side note, I love that question, "If God is your father who is your mother?"
My favorite Bible is a Catholic Bible, and I think it is in the apocrypha where it says mother earth, but it might actually be in the protestant Bible; not just the apocrapha...I will have to look.
Anyway, I love that since we were made from earth (Adam). And I love that the phrase actually originated in the Bible.
But I have another theory too.
The Holy Spirit, and the spirit of wisdom are often called she, or her (feminine) in the Bible, so maybe they are the female part of God.
An unbeliever challenged me one time, that there was no female in the creator, and that it made no sense, and when I told him that, he said he was blown away and that he had never heard anyone say that before. :)

I see people wanting to make God female. But unfortunately the feminine trait often does not include aggressive judgement and rebuke.

The role of women is to support and raise children. In a sense they run society, but supporting and feeling the pressures on everyone and making things possible. Some regard saying this as demeaning, but in truth it is like the Holy Spirit, it brings life to society.

But we also need the hard decision makers who sacrifice everything to fulfil a goal. It is hard faced commitment and rationality within the context. It is why guys dominate in engineering and women dominate in the caring services, nurses etc. Interestingly doctors who make life and death decisions where often men, but now becoming more women, which probably reflects the change from life and death to support and understanding.

So the Father and Jesus will always be male.
The women are always part of the story, but mainly in support rather than staring. The funny thing is support is actually more important, the staring is just the billboard. Without the support there is nothing to billboard. Unless we had the Holy Spirit in our hearts, we would not connect with the Father and Son.
 
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ExTiff

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So the Father and Jesus will always be male.

If you don't object to making God in the image of a human being, I suppose you can go on thinking that God is in some way 'masculine'. However if you believe that there is only one God, without body, parts or passions, you might have to alter your rather simplistic notion that God is in some way similar to human men, who have 'masculine' gender. What we know from Jesus is that God, The Father is pure spirit, and that therefore we cannot actually attribute 'gender' to God since that would mean God is like unto someone who has similar 'gender' to God. We know from scripture however that God is utterly unlike anyone or anything in heaven or on earth. Therefore 'gender' is not applicable to God the Father except metaphorically in that God is the source and origin of all that is, seen and unseen, therefore the Father of everything. Gender does not come into that however because God 'Fathered' everything out of nothing, God didn't have a wife of opposite 'gender' to enable the creation process. God did it all. Human beings need two 'genders' to 'reproduce', but God 'produces' without help from anyone else. Jesus was male and therefore 'masculine' while he was on earth, but we are told in scripture that Jesus has become a life giving spirit after the resurrection and ascension. Jesus is now 2nd Person of the Trinity, which is all one God, so even in 'His' case we can't exclusively think of Jesus any longer as humanly 'masculine', since we can't think of Him 'humanly' except in his pre-exulted state, before his resurrection and ascension into heaven. He is now as unique as The Father, being the first fruits of the dead, and there being nothing in heaven or earth like him. We are just told in scripture that whether we are 'masculine' or whether we are 'feminine' WE shall all be 'like Him', whatever Jesus is now like in heaven. God is the ultimate expression of wisdom, and wisdom is personified in scripture as a woman. Prov.1:20-23.
.
 
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Robin Mauro

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No! But I am not superstitious about the absolute necessity of the performance of a physical ritual in order to receive God's forgiveness. God does not demand ritual, God renews hearts. Ezek.36:26; Rom.2:29, That is what we are talking about here. At what point a person receives the Holy Spirit and therefore are 'saved'. According to scripture 'hearing with faith' is what is required. Not subjecting to a ritual. Gal.3:2. Though once a person has 'heard and believed' there should be no reason for them to avoid baptism, unless they are already baptized. Acts.18:24-28.
.
Yes, I agree. Also, I have never met one new Christian in my entire life, not one, who did not wish to be baptized immediately. So what's the controversy?
 
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Robin Mauro

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I see people wanting to make God female. But unfortunately the feminine trait often does not include aggressive judgement and rebuke.

The role of women is to support and raise children. In a sense they run society, but supporting and feeling the pressures on everyone and making things possible. Some regard saying this as demeaning, but in truth it is like the Holy Spirit, it brings life to society.

But we also need the hard decision makers who sacrifice everything to fulfil a goal. It is hard faced commitment and rationality within the context. It is why guys dominate in engineering and women dominate in the caring services, nurses etc. Interestingly doctors who make life and death decisions where often men, but now becoming more women, which probably reflects the change from life and death to support and understanding.

So the Father and Jesus will always be male.
The women are always part of the story, but mainly in support rather than staring. The funny thing is support is actually more important, the staring is just the billboard. Without the support there is nothing to billboard. Unless we had the Holy Spirit in our hearts, we would not connect with the Father and Son.
There was a judge named Deborah in the Old Testament, Judges 4, and many courageous women, such as Jael, who drove a tent spike through the enemies head.
I think it is more that physically, it is the woman who bears children, so she tends to be the nurturer, but woman has always worked too, often with a baby on her back.
But because of childbearing, until birth control (and still after when women choose to have children) woman is at a diasvantage in the working world. And because of sexism, she is also not given the training and arvantagrs men and boys are given, not that she is incapable.
And I think God is not as we think of him in human terms. Yes, he is the father, but he is so much more than that too, encompassing all.
 
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ExTiff

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Yes, I agree. Also, I have never met one new Christian in my entire life, not one, who did not wish to be baptized immediately. So what's the controversy?

Unfortunately sometimes the controversy is over whether a person's infant baptism is valid, or whether they should be, 'done properly'. The issue there is a serious one, not to God, but to the person being baptized and to the person(s) claiming that their baptism is the one that will 'work', and therefore essential for salvation to take place. Effectively casting doubt upon the faith of the person they want to baptise and also on God who has brought the person to faith according to the promise they received from God at their baptism in infancy.

Unfortunately among sects and denominations which practice only adult baptism there is astonishing ignorance of the scriptures concerning the Biblical doctrine of Infant Baptism, what it is and what God confers through it.
.
 
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Albion

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I did not say that. I believe we should be baptized, but I believe the example of the man hanging next to Jesus on the cross shows that people, who for whatever reason, cannot be baptized (like death in his case), can still be saved.
So much is written in order to "prove" that point, but yet there are very few churches and very few Christians that disagree with it. :scratch:
 
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ExTiff

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So much is written in order to "prove" that point, but yet there are very few churches and very few Christians that disagree with it. :scratch:

But there are so many 'denominations' and 'faith communities' that insist upon converts to their particular denom, (particularly Baptists), being 're-baptised' if they can claim only infant baptism, as their initiation into the church of Jesus Christ.
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Albion

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So many? It is mainly Baptists and Baptist offshoots that do that. They are not insignificant, I agree, but the great majority of Christian denominations, whether Catholic or Protestant, accept as valid and sufficient baptisms performed in other denominations, so long as water was used and the name of the Triune God invoked.
 
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ExTiff

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So many? It is mainly Baptists and Baptist offshoots that do that. They are not insignificant, I agree, but the great majority of Christian denominations, whether Catholic or Protestant, accept as valid and sufficient baptisms performed in other denominations, so long as water was used and the name of the Triune God invoked.

Agreed. Most main denominations understand the Biblical basis for infant baptism, or at least agree on the fact that one can be successfully argued for the practice, plus of course that the church has been doing it for as long as there are historical records of it, going back to within 200 years of the Apostolic age. Nevertheless there are still some adult baptism enthusiasts which do not accept converts as 'legitimate servants of the Lord' unless they are 're-baptized' or as they would put it 'baptized'.
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Robin Mauro

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Agreed. Most main denominations understand the Biblical basis for infant baptism, or at least agree on the fact that one can be successfully argued for the practice, plus of course that the church has been doing it for as long as there are historical records of it, going back to within 200 years of the Apostolic age. Nevertheless there are still some adult baptism enthusiasts which do not accept converts as 'legitimate servants of the Lord' unless they are 're-baptized' or as they would put it 'baptized'.
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Hmmm, I don't recall reading any scriptures about infant baptism.
If there are some, would you mind posting them? (nd I don't mean church history here, I mean actual scripture).
And I thought baptism was about one's profession of faith, which an infant is not able to do, so my understanding has been that one needs to be of an age to accept the Lord for themselves, then be baptized.
I realize Catholics do infant baptism, but who knows if the child will believe or not? I have had many friends who were raised Catholic (and other religions for that matter) who do not believe as adults. I guess that could also be said of kids who believed and were baptized, and now don't, and even adults who believed and then fell away.
(Now i'm just confusing myself! :))
Not that I don't believe Catholics are Christians. I do. I have known many Catholics who believe deeply in God and Christ's sacrifice for mankind.
I just don't see baptizing an infant, except to bless them, because believing is a decision everyone must make, or not make, for themselves.
Having trouble w my internet connection, so I hope this does not post more than once.
 
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ExTiff

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As I said, some denominations have no idea what the scriptural basis is for infant baptism. To be fair though even some denominations couldn't explain to you the scriptural justification for their doing it. They just do it because the church has been doing if for such a long, long time.

Hmmm, I don't recall reading any scriptures about infant baptism.

You were looking in the wrong places then and making the wrong assumptions, and perhaps also thinking like a gentile rather than a completed Jew entering the New Covenant from the Old Covenant, (which is actually all one covenant but 'better', more gracious, and with added promises and much wider application). WE, of Christ's church, are not 'gentiles' any longer, we have been grafted into the old olive tree root stock of the original 'church', the nation of faithful Israel.

There are two classes of people to whom baptism is applied, namely adults and infants
a. Adult baptism: Baptism is intended for believers and their seed. In the words of the institution Jesus undoubtedly had in mind primarily the baptism of adults, for it was only with these that the disciples could begin in their missionary labours. His instruction implies that baptism had to be preceded by a profession of faith, Mark.16:16. On the day of Pentecost those that received the word of Peter were baptized, Acts.2:41; cf. also Acts.8:37 (Auth. Ver.); 16:31-34. The Church should require a profession of faith from all adults seeking baptism. When such a profession is made, this is accepted by the Church at its face value, unless there are good reasons to doubt its sincerity.

I thought baptism was about one's profession of faith, which an infant is not able to do, so my understanding has been that one needs to be of an age to accept the Lord for themselves, then be baptized.

b. Infant Baptism: Baptists deny the right of infant baptism, since children cannot exercise faith, and since the New Testament contains no command to baptize children and does not record a single instance of such baptism. Yet this does not prove it un-biblical. Since the Jewish nation had previously understood infants to be included with their parents under The Old Covenant, it would be unreasonable to exclude them under the New, especially since the New is a 'Better Covenant' and 'More Gracious' than the old. Jews would have continued to believe their infants were covenant bound from birth and would have continued to circumcise 8 day old males even under the New Covenant. Circumcision was replaced by baptism, as scripture attests, yet there is not a single word of Apostolic disapproval anywhere in the New Testament against the baptizing of an infant. If it were frowned upon there should be objections in the NT, but there are none. There are examples of whole families being baptized though, and though infants are not specifically mentioned, it is unlikely that there were none or that Jews who entered the New Covenant would have allowed them to be excluded. There are also no recorded incidences of an adult or adolescent child of believing parents being baptized, anywhere in the new testament, yet we know that infant baptism was not only widely practiced in the church within150 to 200 years of the Apostolic church, and well before the closing of the canon of scripture, and there are no objections raised by any authority against its practice.

(1) The scriptural basis for infant baptism: Infant baptism is not based on a single passage of scripture, but on a series of considerations. The covenant made with Abraham was primarily a spiritual covenant, though it also had a national aspect. Rom.4:16-18; Gal.3:8, 9, 14. This covenant is still in force and is essentially the same as the "new covenant" of the present dispensation, Rom.4:13-18; Gal.3:15-18; Heb.6:13-18. Children shared in the blessings of the covenant, received the sign of circumcision, and were reckoned as part of the congregation of Israel, 2 Chron.20:13; Joel.2:16. In the New Testament baptism is substituted for circumcision as the sign and seal of entrance into the covenant, Acts.2:39; Col.2:11, 12. The "New Covenant" is represented in scripture as more gracious than the old, Isa.54:13; Jer.31:34; Heb.8:11, and therefore would hardly exclude children. This is also unlikely in view of such passages as Matt.19:14; Acts.2:39; 1 Cor.7:14. Moreover, whole households were baptized and it is unlikely that these contained no children. Acts.16:15; 16:33; 1 Cor.1:16.

(2) The ground and operation of infant baptism. In reformed circles some hold that children are baptized on the ground of a presumptive regeneration, that is, on the assumption, (not the assurance), that they are regenerated. Others take the position that they are baptized on the ground of the all comprehensive covenant promise of God, which also includes the promise of regeneration, (immediately or in due course). This is my preferred view. The covenant promise affords the only certain and objective ground for the baptism of infants. But if the question is asked, how infant baptism can function as a means of grace to strengthen spiritual life, the answer is that it can at the very moment of its administration strengthen the regenerate life, if already present in the child, and can strengthen faith later on when the significance of baptism is more clearly understood. Its operation is not necessarily limited to the very moment of its administration.
.
 
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bcbsr

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Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???
Paul is speaking of the cause of one's salvation. Faith apart from works.

But those who have been saved characteristically go on to do good works. (Eph 2:10)

Mat 25 is speaking not about the cause of salvation, but the inevitable effect of salvation. You can see this also in 1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

So when one comes faith and as such is saved, God gives him the Holy Spirit who makes him born of God, and the 1John 3:9 effect takes place which affects his behavior so much so that one can distinguish children of God and children of the devil based upon their behavior.

One is a cause, the other is an effect. Mt 25 is diagnostic rather than causal.
 
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Robin Mauro

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As I said, some denominations have no idea what the scriptural basis is for infant baptism. To be fair though even some denominations couldn't explain to you the scriptural justification for their doing it. They just do it because the church has been doing if for such a long, long time.



You were looking in the wrong places then and making the wrong assumptions, and perhaps also thinking like a gentile rather than a completed Jew entering the New Covenant from the Old Covenant, (which is actually all one covenant but 'better', more gracious, and with added promises and much wider application). WE, of Christ's church, are not 'gentiles' any longer, we have been grafted into the old olive tree root stock of the original 'church', the nation of faithful Israel.

There are two classes of people to whom baptism is applied, namely adults and infants
a. Adult baptism: Baptism is intended for believers and their seed. In the words of the institution Jesus undoubtedly had in mind primarily the baptism of adults, for it was only with these that the disciples could begin in their missionary labours. His instruction implies that baptism had to be preceded by a profession of faith, Mark.16:16. On the day of Pentecost those that received the word of Peter were baptized, Acts.2:41; cf. also Acts.8:37 (Auth. Ver.); 16:31-34. The Church should require a profession of faith from all adults seeking baptism. When such a profession is made, this is accepted by the Church at its face value, unless there are good reasons to doubt its sincerity.



b. Infant Baptism: Baptists deny the right of infant baptism, since children cannot exercise faith, and since the New Testament contains no command to baptize children and does not record a single instance of such baptism. Yet this does not prove it un-biblical. Since the Jewish nation had previously understood infants to be included with their parents under The Old Covenant, it would be unreasonable to exclude them under the New, especially since the New is a 'Better Covenant' and 'More Gracious' than the old. Jews would have continued to believe their infants were covenant bound from birth and would have continued to circumcise 8 day old males even under the New Covenant. Circumcision was replaced by baptism, as scripture attests, yet there is not a single word of Apostolic disapproval anywhere in the New Testament against the baptizing of an infant. If it were frowned upon there should be objections in the NT, but there are none. There are examples of whole families being baptized though, and though infants are not specifically mentioned, it is unlikely that there were none or that Jews who entered the New Covenant would have allowed them to be excluded. There are also no recorded incidences of an adult or adolescent child of believing parents being baptized, anywhere in the new testament, yet we know that infant baptism was not only widely practiced in the church within150 to 200 years of the Apostolic church, and well before the closing of the canon of scripture, and there are no objections raised by any authority against its practice.

(1) The scriptural basis for infant baptism: Infant baptism is not based on a single passage of scripture, but on a series of considerations. The covenant made with Abraham was primarily a spiritual covenant, though it also had a national aspect. Rom.4:16-18; Gal.3:8, 9, 14. This covenant is still in force and is essentially the same as the "new covenant" of the present dispensation, Rom.4:13-18; Gal.3:15-18; Heb.6:13-18. Children shared in the blessings of the covenant, received the sign of circumcision, and were reckoned as part of the congregation of Israel, 2 Chron.20:13; Joel.2:16. In the New Testament baptism is substituted for circumcision as the sign and seal of entrance into the covenant, Acts.2:39; Col.2:11, 12. The "New Covenant" is represented in scripture as more gracious than the old, Isa.54:13; Jer.31:34; Heb.8:11, and therefore would hardly exclude children. This is also unlikely in view of such passages as Matt.19:14; Acts.2:39; 1 Cor.7:14. Moreover, whole households were baptized and it is unlikely that these contained no children. Acts.16:15; 16:33; 1 Cor.1:16.

(2) The ground and operation of infant baptism. In reformed circles some hold that children are baptized on the ground of a presumptive regeneration, that is, on the assumption, (not the assurance), that they are regenerated. Others take the position that they are baptized on the ground of the all comprehensive covenant promise of God, which also includes the promise of regeneration, (immediately or in due course). This is my preferred view. The covenant promise affords the only certain and objective ground for the baptism of infants. But if the question is asked, how infant baptism can function as a means of grace to strengthen spiritual life, the answer is that it can at the very moment of its administration strengthen the regenerate life, if already present in the child, and can strengthen faith later on when the significance of baptism is more clearly understood. Its operation is not necessarily limited to the very moment of its administration.
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So, in other words, there is actually not one scriptural reference to infant baptism, neither in the Old or New Testaments.
I didn't think so.
 
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Albion

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I don't believe that there is a single Bible reference to teen-agers being baptized either, but every church that believes in and practices what they call 'Believers Baptism' does baptize them, and many of them baptize younger children, too.
 
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