SDA

[1stcenturylady]

As far as I know but Russel was never a Millerite or an SDA. So even claiming Miller is a bit of a stretch.

This is what I found on the internet:

Jehovah’s Witnesses are mostly quite oblivious to their Millerite origins. Their own version of the “modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” begins with Charles Taze Russell, decades after Miller.

But plainly the Seventh-Day Adventists and the Witnesses are both heirs to the Millerite movement of the 1840s, the Adventists quite directly and the Witnesses somewhat more indirectly. Yet if Miller had never presented his flawed prophecies about the return of Jesus in 1844, we can be certain there would be neither Adventists nor Jehovah’s Witnesses today, at least not in the form we know them.

If you are interested in the whole article"

https://www.quora.com/How-do-Jehovas-Witnesses-view-their-Millerite-origins

 

[stephen pollard]

Rather I point to over a billion that seem to be having some excuse - as I said we do not consider that they are lost simply because they are uninformed on that point.

I will leave you to your deflections, and beliefs that Christians can wilfully transgress the law in their heart and mind and be ignorant of doing so. This may be true for sda members, but it was never true for me. I can assure you, if I wilfully transgressed nine of the Ten Commandments, as written I would not have been ignorant of the fact I committed sin. Neither did I have to read what was written in ink to be conscious I sinned if I transgressed them. The Holy Spirit you see is the convictor of sin. And though I have never been convicted remotely of sin concerning the fourth commandment, as written, I am perfectly well aware of what it states, as I imagine are nearly all Christians on this website.
The law is not written in ink for believers, it is in their hearts and minds. Those who only know what sin is by reading law written in the OT, seem to have far less conviction of sin than those who rely on an inner witness, as I found out when I visited two sda churches

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

 

[1stcenturylady]

I will leave you to your deflections, and beliefs that Christians can wilfully transgress the law in their heart and mind and be ignorant of doing so. This may be true for sda members, but it was never true for me. I can assure you, if I wilfully transgressed nine of the Ten Commandments, as written I would not have been ignorant of the fact I committed sin. Neither did I have to read what was written in ink to be conscious I sinned if I transgressed them. The Holy Spirit you see is the convictor of sin. And though I have never been convicted remotely of sin concerning the fourth commandment, as written, I am perfectly well aware of what it states, as I imagine are nearly all Christians on this website.
The law is not written in ink for believers, it is in their hearts and minds. Those who only know what sin is by reading law written in the OT, seem to have far less conviction of sin than those who rely on an inner witness, as I found out when I visited two sda churches

It all boils down to what is the law written on our heart, our conscience, as those are the laws the New Covenant are based on, as were the Ten Commandments. "To love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." When comparing the Old with the New, the first four of the Old are covered under believing in the name of Jesus (who is God), and the last 6 are covered under loving one another.

1 John 3:23

 

[bekkilyn]

In Matthew 19 Jesus said "if you want eternal life - keep the commandments" --
Jesus is then asked "which ones".
Instead of avoiding the TEN in Matthew 22 - Jesus specifically quotes from the Ten -- the commands that deal with "Love your neighbor" as He instructed in Leviticus 19.

your idea that all those Christian denominations are confused - is your POV. You can have any view you want.



Agreed.

Note that He is not including any commandments related to "Love God with all your heart"

He does not list "do not take God's name in vain"
He does not list "Love God with all your heart"
He does not list "Do not worship false gods"
etc.

In that list He only includes things related to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

But he does quote outright - verbatim commandments from the TEN commandments

Such that Paul can say in Eph 6:2 that the 5th commandment in that still-binding unit of Ten is the "First commandment with a promise"



True.. as I said .





Note that He is not including any commandments related to "Love God with all your heart"

your notion that these are not part of God's Law or that violation of them is fine... is an extreme position for any Christian of any denomination. Has nothing to do with SDA or not.

He does not list "do not take God's name in vain"
He does not list "Love God with all your heart"
He does not list "Do not worship false gods"
etc.



Creative writing -- but here is what the text says in real life.

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Two things to note --
1. This is affirming the Ten Commandments not rejecting them
2. Jesus left out "Do not covet" because that is what the young man was in fact doing and Jesus was going to make a point of it.


20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

This is - commandment affirming teaching... not commandment denying teaching.



how sad

You're missing the point that what Jesus is actually talking about in that passage is NOT about the ten commandments. Do we worship grapes because he talks about a vineyard to make a point? No, so because he uses something that a Jewish man of his time might be familiar with in order to get his message across isn't at all far-fetched. He would not have asked a Gentile the same question because a Gentile wouldn't have any clue about something only contained in Jewish scriptures as a Gentile was never under any Jewish covenants.

It is not an extremist position to put Jesus first above all things. If you want to put laws of an obsolete covenant first, that's your choice, but I think I'll personally go along with the Holy Spirit on this one.

 

[stephen pollard]

It all boils down to what is the law written on our heart, our conscience, as those are the laws the New Covenant are based on, as were the Ten Commandments. "To love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." When comparing the Old with the New, the first four of the Old are covered under believing in the name of Jesus (who is God), and the last 6 are covered under loving one another.

1 John 3:23

Every seventh day Adventist would believe the Ten Commandments are written in the mind and placed on the heart of believers. But they also believe you can sin in ignorance of that law, though they avidly believe Rom3:20&1John3:4
Is it in your heart not to want to commit adultery, take the Lord's name in vain, steal, murder, bear false witness, covet, not have any God's before your Father in heaven? That all is in my heart. It is not legalism, it just means I want to live my life by not doing those things/living as God wants me to live. Can I wilfully sin in ignorance of those things? No I cannot! As I previously told you, the way in which I live according to what is in my heart is through faith in Christ, loving God and my neighboiur, all in the power of the Holy Spirit. Not focusing on, and determining to obey each and every single commandment/law placed in my heart. Love fulfils the law

 

[bekkilyn]

The examples I gave were
praying to the dead
bowing down before images and promising to serve those they represent
Sabbath breaking..

IE. breaking the Ten Commandments "he who breaks one breaks them all" James 2.

Bible details matter in that sola-scriptura testing model.

Bible details can matter since James 2 is talking about the Law, as in the Law and the Prophets Law, Jewish Law, the Law of the Torah. To try to turn the Law into *just* the ten commandments is reading something into it that's not there. You follow ALL the Law, and not just the commandments you personally approve of, or you follow none of it.

And considering that if we have received Christ into our hearts, we have the Holy Spirit, and thus we have no need of the law.

The reason the Holy Spirit doesn't universally convict concerning observing a sabbath day is because there is no sin in not observing it. It was the sign of the covenant between God and the Israelites at Sinai and no one else was ever under that covenant. And then God came along in the flesh as Jesus and fulfilled it's purpose and gave us the Holy Spirit to convict sin. Jesus himself is our rest and if we rest in Jesus, we are not breaking any commandments.

 

[Cis.jd]

Your statement that "cult is determined by size of group" sounds like creative writing - did you make that up or is that "Websters"??

Both miriam and sociology definitions
Cult - Wikiquote
Definition of CULT 2.c

The Christian church itself started "small" is it your claim that the Christian church itself used to be a cult??

Semantically, yes. Back then, Christianity was a viewed as a cult. By Sociology, every religion started off as a cult.

Paul admits that Christianity was being considered "a sect" of Judaism and that he belonged to it.

Yes, but if you read non christian history books or historians, Christianity was viewed as a Judaistic cult during the time.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Every seventh day Adventist would believe the Ten Commandments are written in the mind and placed on the heart of believers. But they also believe you can sin in ignorance of that law, though they avidly believe Rom3:20&1John3:4
Is it in your heart not to want to commit adultery, take the Lord's name in vain, steal, murder, bear false witness, covet, not have any God's before your Father in heaven? That all is in my heart. It is not legalism, it just means I want to live my life by not doing those things/living as God wants me to live. Can I wilfully sin in ignorance of those things? No I cannot! As I previously told you, the way in which I live according to what is in my heart is through faith in Christ, loving God and my neighboiur, all in the power of the Holy Spirit. Not focusing on, and determining to obey each and every single commandment/law placed in my heart. Love fulfils the law

Yes, how can your heart know to keep the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday without knowing the engraved laws. But you can keep the laws against lying, stealing, adultery, murder, etc. naturally with our new nature as the desire to do those things are not in our heart as we love God and our neighbor.

 

[klutedavid]

Really? Well that's good then. I read that book decades ago, and my memory must not be clear on that. Thanks.

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Walter Martin's book was called "the Kingdom of the Cults."

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Walter Martin's book was called "the Kingdom of the Cults."

See #5. Seventh-day Adventists are in his book, but Bob Ryan said he said they were not a cult in his book. I have the book somewhere, probably in the attic...so can't look it up to verify. It doesn't matter what he said, though, as they are not a cult, no matter what anyone else says. They believe in Jesus Christ and believe in the Trinity. They do not believe Jesus was a created being. It doesn't matter to God that they keep the Sabbath and obey the dietary laws.

 

[klutedavid]

See #5. Seventh-day Adventists are in his book, but Bob Ryan said he said they were not a cult in his book. I have the book somewhere, probably in the attic...so can't look it up to verify. It doesn't matter what he said, though, as they are not a cult, no matter what anyone else says. They believe in Jesus Christ and believe in the Trinity. They do not believe Jesus was a created being. It doesn't matter to God that they keep the Sabbath and obey the dietary laws.

I was just saying that the SDA appear in the publication, 'Kingdom of the Cults'. I did not say that Walter Martin actually called the SDA a cult.

Calvinist Anthony A. Hoekema, who did not agree with the Adventist views from Arminius's as Adventism holds a Wesleyan/Arminian stream of theology, grouped Seventh-day Adventism with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science in his book The Four Major Cults (wikipedia)

 

[1stcenturylady]

I was just saying that the SDA appear in the publication, 'Kingdom of the Cults'. I did not say that Walter Martin actually called the SDA a cult.

Calvinist Anthony A. Hoekema, who did not agree with the Adventist views from Arminius's as Adventism holds a Wesleyan/Arminian stream of theology, grouped Seventh-day Adventism with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science in his book The Four Major Cults (wikipedia)

You underlined "the Cults" for emphasis in #411. Why? It seems you believe they are a cult. I don't.


Anthony Hoekema is Calvinist. Need I say more???

 

[klutedavid]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

There appears to be a split within the Christian world, over whether the SDA is a cult.

You underlined "the Cults" for emphasis in #411. Why? It seems you believe they are a cult. I don't.

Some say, they are a cult and some say, they are not a cult. That is why I underlined that phrase in the quotation.

Anthony Hoekema is Calvinist. Need I say more???

Is Calvinism itself then a cult?

 

[BobRyan]

This is what I found on the internet:

Jehovah’s Witnesses are mostly quite oblivious to their Millerite origins. Their own version of the “modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” begins with Charles Taze Russell, decades after Miller.

But plainly the Seventh-Day Adventists and the Witnesses are both heirs to the Millerite movement of the 1840s,

What JW claims to have been a Millerite first?

 

[BobRyan]

I was just saying that the SDA appear in the publication, 'Kingdom of the Cults'. I did not say that Walter Martin actually called the SDA a cult.

Indeed they "appear" in the appendix where Martin refutes the notion that the SDA denomination is a cult.

 

[BobRyan]

Every seventh day Adventist would believe the Ten Commandments are written in the mind and placed on the heart of believers

And so also do these non-SDA groups claim that the TEN Commandments are written on the heart under the New Covenant

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And so also these non-SDA groups

 

[BobRyan]

Bible details can matter since James 2 is talking about the Law, as in the Law and the Prophets Law, Jewish Law, the Law of the Torah. To try to turn the Law into *just* the ten commandments is reading something into it that's not there. You follow ALL the Law, and not just the commandments you personally approve of, or you follow none of it.

James 2 does not include "you personally approve of" ... that is your "creative writing"

But James 2 does say this -
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[stephen pollard]

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

So it is sinless perfection or you are guilty of breaking the entire law. Absolutely

 

[stephen pollard]

And so also do these non-SDA groups claim that the TEN Commandments are written on the heart under the New Covenant

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And so also these non-SDA groups

Do you know how many of them believe you can go on sinning in ignorance of law written in your mind and placed on your heart?

 

[BobRyan]

James 2 does not include "you personally approve of" ... that is your "creative writing"

But James 2 does say this -
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

So it is sinless perfection or you are guilty of breaking the entire law. Absolutely

James 2 does not say "never sin so that you won't need the gospel"
James 2 does not say "ignore the law of God since you cannot claim that you never sin"

I think we all knew that