Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[Eudaimonist]

You have your god and I have my God. Your choice has been made.

I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity. I'm calling Poe here.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I could choose to no longer believe, but why should I? If I believe that in Christ there is no other meaning to life and no hope for me in eternity, when why should I want to shoot myself in the foot for no reason?

Right, because you are convinced that you already know the truth. No one who is convinced that they are right will ever bother to make the attempt to believe something else, unless they come across reasons to think that they are mistaken. This is effectively the same thing as being unable to change one's beliefs for no good reason, which is what the atheists here are saying that they can't do.

I also have no desire to "shoot myself in the foot". It would be irrational for me to simply believe something, such as the existence of a divine being or an appealing afterlife, when simply believing in them doesn't make them actually exist and provide the promised benefits. I too want to understand reality for what it is. If it is a natural reality, then I can take appropriate actions in my life based on my understanding. We share that in common.

I assume that you are truly convinced and aren't simply believing because of assurances, because then you might as well believe that you are God and that of course your existence in eternity is absolutely assured.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ken-1122]

"Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if..."

Atheists do believe in God. The simply suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness.

History is full of examples of people who believe in God, yet they commit some of the most evil atrocious acts anyway. If these people can commit such acts without suppressing the truth of God in their unrighteousness, why would you assume an atheist would have to?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.

Doubt is what atheists do.

 

[MehGuy]

It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Now a quick answer one would say is yes but it doesn't. And I think this is where the discussion really begins. Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former christians they admit to missing or at least no longer having certain benefits that christianity gave them.

The answer seems relative. I have a feeling you had me in mind when you wrote this because out of all of the former-theists on this forum I seem to be the one who whines the most about losing my theistic status. In my case, yes I'd probably be much more happy and fulfilled if I was able to become a theist again. The thing is, I lack a belief in a God because of a lack of conceiving evidence and there is no way I'd be able to force my mind to believe in God again. In regards to the film The Matrix I probably relate the most to Cypher, lol.

Is it all doom and gloom being an atheist? For the vast majority I'd guess not. Some probably even improve psychologically being atheist. Can't tell you how many Christians and whatnot are tormented with the idea of Hell. Maybe a happy medium for many is being a wish washy Christian? Lol.

Anyways, if I ever have children I plan to nudge them into the atheist direction, mainly because I don't want to see them fall into the same pitfalls I did regarding my experience with theism. Emotional empathy seems to be a key ingredient for who can engage in the most spiritual passiona and my family history looks to be filled with hyper empaths and as a consequence hyper theists. My kids should be fine, their brain won't become dependent on unrealistic emotional empathy standards if they were to fall into atheism.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Right, because you are convinced that you already know the truth. No one who is convinced that they are right will ever bother to make the attempt to believe something else, unless they come across reasons to think that they are mistaken. This is effectively the same thing as being unable to change one's beliefs for no good reason, which is what the atheists here are saying that they can't do.

I also have no desire to "shoot myself in the foot". It would be irrational for me to simply believe something, such as the existence of a divine being or an appealing afterlife, when simply believing in them doesn't make them actually exist and provide the promised benefits. I too want to understand reality for what it is. If it is a natural reality, then I can take appropriate actions in my life based on my understanding. We share that in common.

I assume that you are truly convinced and aren't simply believing because of assurances, because then you might as well believe that you are God and that of course your existence in eternity is absolutely assured.


eudaimonia,

Mark

We will have to agree to disagree then.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

The answer seems relative. I have a feeling you had me in mind when you wrote this because out of all of the former-theists on this forum I seem to be the one who whines the most about losing my theistic status. In my case, yes I'd probably be much more happy and fulfilled if I was able to become a theist again. The thing is, I lack a belief in a God because of a lack of conceiving evidence and there is no way I'd be able to force my mind to believe in God again. In regards to the film The Matrix I probably relate the most to Cypher, lol.

Is it all doom and gloom being an atheist? For the vast majority I'd guess not. Some probably even improve psychologically being atheist. Can't tell you how many Christians and whatnot are tormented with the idea of Hell. Maybe a happy medium for many is being a wish washy Christian? Lol.

Anyways, if I ever have children I plan to nudge them into the atheist direction, mainly because I don't want to see them fall into the same pitfalls I did regarding my experience with theism. Emotional empathy seems to be a key ingredient for who can engage in the most spiritual passiona and my family history looks to be filled with hyper empaths and as a consequence hyper theists. My kids should be fine, their brain won't become dependent on unrealistic emotional empathy standards if they were to fall into atheism.

What exactly is causing the emotional distress you feel from no longer believing in God? If it's not true it's not true ya know. Also you have been an atheist for a long time now. Is it guilt from your family? It's well known that concerning trauma if you think of a past trauma and it still triggers you, then its because you can't articulate that experience. So can you articulate your experience? If not maybe that would solve this dilemma you have. Because if for any reason I didn't believe God existed, then I would have as much emotional distress as I had when I found out santa claus wasn't real. Which wasn't much if any.

I mean I get the reality shift, of everything you thought was true isn't real anymore can be hard. But it's different from going from a place of being certain God exists then now being certain he isn't to where you seem to claim to be which is you are agnostic about it. And if you are agnostic about it then it's possible he does exist so you aren't making as radical of an ideological shift as say going from 100% certainty he exists to being 100% certain he doesn't exist. Yours is more of a pull away from God than a complete push to he doesn't exist it seems.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

History is full of examples of people who believe in God, yet they commit some of the most evil atrocious acts anyway. If these people can commit such acts without suppressing the truth of God in their unrighteousness, why would you assume an atheist would have to?

There were more evil acts committed by people who didn't believe in God. Adolf killed six million Jews (who believed in God), not to mention Riwanda where millions were killed by pagans, and Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, and he was an atheist, and the Japs exterminated thousands of innocent Chinese during WW2. So I think it is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

 

[comana]

There were more evil acts committed by people who didn't believe in God. Adolf killed six million Jews (who believed in God), not to mention Riwanda where millions were killed by pagans, and Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, and he was an atheist, and the Japs exterminated thousands of innocent Chinese during WW2. So I think it is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Bad people are bad regardless of their god belief status. Good people are good regardless of their god belief status. Pretty simple.

 

[Ken-1122]

There were more evil acts committed by people who didn't believe in God. Adolf killed six million Jews (who believed in God), not to mention Riwanda where millions were killed by pagans, and Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, and he was an atheist, and the Japs exterminated thousands of innocent Chinese during WW2. So I think it is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Did you even read what I said in context? He was making the absurd claim that atheists pretend to not believe in God because they wanna do bad things. My point is, that you don’t need to deny the existence of God in order to do bad things, people who believe in God do bad things all the time.

Do you agree with what I said? If not; explain why.

 

[MehGuy]

What exactly is causing the emotional distress you feel from no longer believing in God? If it's not true it's not true ya know. Also you have been an atheist for a long time now. Is it guilt from your family?

No, it isn't guilt from my family. Despite coming from a hyper religious family, once I become an atheist I just flat out told them. My parents are very loving and I had little worry that I'd receive much blow back from it. Even if I did, I wouldn't care much. If they cut me out of their life oh well. I can walk away from relationships pretty easily for the most part.

It's well known that concerning trauma if you think of a past trauma and it still triggers you, then its because you can't articulate that experience. So can you articulate your experience?

Yeah, I can articulate the experience pretty well. I don't agree that knowing the psychological reasons will solve them. In my case.. the self awareness just gives me the awareness of how psychological I'm probably screwed for life.

If not maybe that would solve this dilemma you have. Because if for any reason I didn't believe God existed, then I would have as much emotional distress as I had when I found out santa claus wasn't real. Which wasn't much if any.

Besides the odd messed up kid, lol.. I can't imagine people get anywhere near emotional about the concept of Santa Clause than say God or a particular religion.

I mean I get the reality shift, of everything you thought was true isn't real anymore can be hard. But it's different from going from a place of being certain God exists then now being certain he isn't to where you seem to claim to be which is you are agnostic about it. And if you are agnostic about it then it's possible he does exist so you aren't making as radical of an ideological shift as say going from 100% certainty he exists to being 100% certain he doesn't exist. Yours is more of a pull away from God than a complete push to he doesn't exist it seems.

I don't see how being an agnostic makes anything less severe. All my spiritual ties are severed.. it doesn't matter if I'm a strong or a weak atheist regarding that.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I can't imagine anyone getting anywhere nearly as emotional about santa claus or fairies that atheists love to compare God to. Yet atheists over and over on these forums keep making these comparisons that aren't useful at all. And it needs to stop. If thats the best they can come up with then just don't.

What does spiritual mean to you?

 

[MehGuy]

I can't imagine anyone getting anywhere nearly as emotional about santa claus or fairies that atheists love to compare God to. Yet atheists over and over on these forums keep making these comparisons that aren't useful at all. And it needs to stop. If thats the best they can come up with then just don't.

Depends on the comparison honestly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Did you even read what I said in context? He was making the absurd claim that atheists pretend to not believe in God because they wanna do bad things. My point is, that you don’t need to deny the existence of God in order to do bad things, people who believe in God do bad things all the time.

Do you agree with what I said? If not; explain why.

Anyone can say they believe in God, but if their actions and behaviour are not consistent with their profession of belief, then, in fact, they don't believe at all. If they did, their conduct would be commensurate with it.

My uncle was in the Western Desert during WW2. He said that there were no atheists in foxholes. He said the "atheists" bragged about how they didn't believe in any god, but when the air raid came over, they leap into their foxholes and prayed like crazy!!

This shows me that just because a person says they are atheists, if their behaviour under stress is not consistent, then they don't really believe that there is no God somewhere out there.

 

[comana]

Anyone can say they believe in God, but if their actions and behaviour are not consistent with their profession of belief, then, in fact, they don't believe at all. If they did, their conduct would be commensurate with it.

My uncle was in the Western Desert during WW2. He said that there were no atheists in foxholes. He said the "atheists" bragged about how they didn't believe in any god, but when the air raid came over, they leap into their foxholes and prayed like crazy!!

This shows me that just because a person says they are atheists, if their behaviour under stress is not consistent, then they don't really believe that there is no God somewhere out there.

Got any anecdotes more recent than 70+ years ago? did those prayers save them?

 

[Ken-1122]

Anyone can say they believe in God, but if their actions and behaviour are not consistent with their profession of belief, then, in fact, they don't believe at all. If they did, their conduct would be commensurate with it.

My uncle was in the Western Desert during WW2. He said that there were no atheists in foxholes. He said the "atheists" bragged about how they didn't believe in any god, but when the air raid came over, they leap into their foxholes and prayed like crazy!!

This shows me that just because a person says they are atheists, if their behaviour under stress is not consistent, then they don't really believe that there is no God somewhere out there.

Are you going to answer my question? Look; if you want to talk about something else, that's fine! But answer my question first, then you can change the subject and talk about something else; fair enough?

 

[JoeP222w]

History is full of examples of people who believe in God, yet they commit some of the most evil atrocious acts anyway. If these people can commit such acts without suppressing the truth of God in their unrighteousness, why would you assume an atheist would have to?

Belief in God alone is does not mean you are righteous before Him. Demons believe in God and they do the most evil acts.

Believers in God also suppress the truth. I never said that they did not.

 

[loveofourlord]

I question the basis of this outside of the maybe comunity I remember the oft touted, "Those that go to church regularly are happier healthier then general public." yeah because those with depression, sickness and other issues probably can't easily go to church so scews the results.

 

[Ken-1122]

Belief in God alone is does not mean you are righteous before Him. Demons believe in God and they do the most evil acts.

Believers in God also suppress the truth. I never said that they did not.

Well if belief in God or not, has nothing to do with suppressing the truth, why would you claim Atheists actually believe in God as if we are only pretending not to?

 

[quatona]

It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Now a quick answer one would say is yes but it doesn't. And I think this is where the discussion really begins. Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former christians they admit to missing or at least no longer having certain benefits that christianity gave them. So I don't think it's too hard to imagine it being actually true that it could not only improve their well being, but their families, their friends, the environment etc. And if this is the case, even if someone is 100% certain God doesn't exist. Shouldn't they still believe in God? Because its clearly what is best for them and everyone else. Or you can ask another question which is should an atheist remain an atheist even when this results in the worst possible suffering for them and every thing else in the universe?

I ask this because I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being. Which can lead to a trickle down effect across the world. Because atheists always try to say they want to behave in a way in which there is the least amount of suffering, if belief in God does lead to the least amount of suffering then shouldn't they believe?

Your question implies that people can simply choose to believe what they don´t believe.
Also, your argument has all the flaws that Pascal´s Wager (as an apologetc tool) has.