Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[Rebecca12]

Odd that you have to believe first (have faith) before you get divine revelation. Nice catch-22.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You claim to know quite a lot of God's mind and inclinations. I am wondering though why you describe him with human frustrations and the concept of "wasting time" when he supposedly exists outside of time. Why place human limitations on an all-knowing, unlimited being. Why would such a being not provide unlimited, clear direction towards belief? Why even demand belief?

The gospel is quite clearly set out in the New Testament. There are clear directions toward belief. Even if someone rose from the dead to say that God and heaven are real, if people won't believe the New Testament then even that wouldn't change his or her mind.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Odd that you have to believe first (have faith) before you get divine revelation. Nice catch-22.

Odd to the natural mind, but very true. The Scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God. We believe the New Testament first, then put that belief into action (faith), then the revelation comes. The things of God are spiritually discerned through revelation, and there is only one doorway to that, and that is believing the New Testament and accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour.

 

[comana]

The gospel is quite clearly set out in the New Testament. There are clear directions toward belief. Even if someone rose from the dead to say that God and heaven are real, if people won't believe the New Testament then even that wouldn't change his or her mind.

If you have spent much time around here you would know that many, maybe most, of the atheists here (myself included) were once believers. Calling out repeatedly to God in time if need (which was literally all of my childhood and early twenties) was like screaming into an empty field. I tried harder. My faith could be stronger. My pain was my punishment, or maybe, my redemption if I could just be a stronger Christian. I sought more knowledge. Wanted to understand what I was lacking. Prayer. So much prayer. In the end nothing. I was heartbroken and slowly I let go until I realized I was chasing the wind with my faith and endless prayers.

Letting go brought the greatest peace and the strength to address my painful childhood in a very healthy way. I am a better and happier person today because of that.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This is a moral question. Which goes should an atheist believe if it produces the least amount of suffering in the world? How can the answer be no?

An atheist doesn't have to be a utilitarian, and even philosophical utilitarians want to know reality for what it is. It is a very odd position to have some sort of epistemological utilitarianism.

Plus, it would be a violation of one's integrity to believe something, or at least to pretend to believe something, that isn't known to be true of reality. That is absolutely a moral issue.

Question answered.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't know how you can wake up in the morning, smell the roses and think man this was one amazing accident.

That's probably true. You don't know.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

That's probably true. You don't know.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You have your god and I have my God. Your choice has been made.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nvm

 

[holo]

I don't know how you can wake up in the morning, smell the roses and think man this was one amazing accident.

In a way that's a extremely self-centered point of view. I experience this amazing state of consciousness, therefore I must be supposed to experience it.
I don't think accident is the best word, because absolutely everything that happens, happens because of something else. Whatever happens, couldn't have happened any other way, because nothing happens truly at random. We may be unable to calculate exactly when an apple will fall from the tree, but it couldn't have have fallen at any other time. If you rewinded time a billion times, it would still fall at the same point every single time.

Same with your thougth life. Whatever you think right now is a direct and necessary result of what you thought the moment before, which is a result of what happened before that, which is a result of what happened before that and so on.

 

[holo]

The gospel is quite clearly set out in the New Testament. There are clear directions toward belief. Even if someone rose from the dead to say that God and heaven are real, if people won't believe the New Testament then even that wouldn't change his or her mind.

Why do you believe? Do you mean that you could actually have chosen not believe? Could you really choose to stop believing in God right now if you wanted to for some reason?

 

[holo]

The gospel is quite clearly set out in the New Testament. There are clear directions toward belief. Even if someone rose from the dead to say that God and heaven are real, if people won't believe the New Testament then even that wouldn't change his or her mind.

My impression was that faith was a gift from God. But anyway, this is circular reasoning. The bible says you must do this and that to get faith. OK. But that assumes you believe the bible is true in the first place. In other words, you already believe it.

How would you go about if you decided you wanted to stop believing in Christianity and start believing in Islam instead?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My impression was that faith was a gift from God. But anyway, this is circular reasoning. The bible says you must do this and that to get faith. OK. But that assumes you believe the bible is true in the first place. In other words, you already believe it.

How would you go about if you decided you wanted to stop believing in Christianity and start believing in Islam instead?

This is how I understand it. The Living God created man in His own image. That is where self-consciousness and unique personality comes from. After creating man, He communicated with him by commissioning authors to compile a written record of who He is and who we all are. That written record is what we call the Bible.

On the natural level, the Bible details the history of the nation of Israel from its inception to its final downfall in AD 70. The laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy make up the legal foundation of the Jewish state. It is the equivalent of British law or American law. They are the rules and regulations that govern the state. To the Jews, the Old Testament is the history of Israel, and therefore it stands like any other history of real events from Abraham onwards.

The Prophet books are the written records of the preachers who gave warnings to Israel about what would happen if they turned away from the Living God to Canaanite idols.

The New Testament gospels are also histories, and Luke's gospel was meticulously researched, as much as any other historical record. Luke also wrote the Book of Acts with the same meticulous professionalism.

Actually there is more evidence that these histories were real events, than the historical evidence that Julius Caesar existed.

I have said all this to show that the Bible is God's communication to mankind, and how He worked with groups of people throughout the pre-history of Israel and afterward. It is also the record of what Jesus said and did. Acts and the Epistles show what the Apostles did and said.

Paul's teaching explains what Christianity is all about and how to become and continue as a Christian believer.

The Bible is the only record that explains who the Living God is, and the only reliable account of who we are and where we came from. There is no other substantive record. Everything else remains in the field of unproven theory and existential believe (faith in faith) If we ignore the Bible, then all believe in a God and Christianity is trying to hang your hat on a hook suspended in mid air.

The promise is that if a person believes in their heart, and confesses with their mouth that God is real and that Jesus died for us on the cross, he or she will be saved, that is, given saving faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why do you believe? Do you mean that you could actually have chosen not believe? Could you really choose to stop believing in God right now if you wanted to for some reason?

I could choose to no longer believe, but why should I? If I believe that in Christ there is no other meaning to life and no hope for me in eternity, when why should I want to shoot myself in the foot for no reason?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Because the invitation is to all. Note that it is not a demand but an invitation, and everyone has the power to choose either way

This is wrong and it also contradicts what was said.

1. I don't have the power to "choose" my beliefs. I can only believe things by compulsion after being convinced of something for one reason or another. I don't control that. I can't "choose" my beliefs like I can "choose" what color pants I'm going to wear.

2. it was said that "only the holy spirit can do that" - so that contradicts the idea that I can "choose" as well. It also makes it pointless for any christian to preach to any non-christian since if this "holy spirit" chooses not to do anything, the non-believer will not believe.

Everyone has to hear the gospel and decide whether they believe it or not. God does not have to prove Himself or justify Himself to anyone. His attitude is believe in me, or not, you choose.

And if death is not the end of everything, and there happens to be a judgment, those who choose not to believe Him have no excuse, and if they complain that they were unfairly treated, the answer will be, "You made your choice, so too bad, how sad (for you)".

Sound like a very unpleasent and immoral cosmic dictator like the likes of Kim Jung Un.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is wrong and it also contradicts what was said.

1. I don't have the power to "choose" my beliefs. I can only believe things by compulsion after being convinced of something for one reason or another. I don't control that. I can't "choose" my beliefs like I can "choose" what color pants I'm going to wear.

2. it was said that "only the holy spirit can do that" - so that contradicts the idea that I can "choose" as well. It also makes it pointless for any christian to preach to any non-christian since if this "holy spirit" chooses not to do anything, the non-believer will not believe.




Sound like a very unpleasent and immoral cosmic dictator like the likes of Kim Jung Un.

Natural logic.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You also choose not to believe in anything that does not make any sense to you.

Not a choice, but even if it were.... why would you believe something that makes no sense to you?

If Christianity is something that is spiritually discerned through divine revelation, then it is understandable that as a natural thinker who uses just your five senses to discern things

You have more then 5 senses?

So, maybe because you have already made your choices about life, universe and everything, there may not be any further opportunity for you to choose any different, and so you may live your life and go into eternity at the end of it on the basis of your present choices.

Or maybe, just maybe.... we don't actually pretend to have the answers before asking the questions.... Which results in us simply following the evidence and no evidence happens to be pointing to supernatural things....?

If after five minutes after you are dead you realise that you made wrong choices, well, too bad, how sad.

Or maybe after 5 minutes after YOU are dead, you realise that Allah is the real god and well, too bad, how sad?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Natural logic.

Rational logic.

Or, you know, just "logic".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Rational logic.

Or, you know, just "logic".

I define natural logic as that using the five senses. Spiritual discernment is something quite different and beyond the knowledge of rationalist thinkers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not a choice, but even if it were.... why would you believe something that makes no sense to you?




You have more then 5 senses?




Or maybe, just maybe.... we don't actually pretend to have the answers before asking the questions.... Which results in us simply following the evidence and no evidence happens to be pointing to supernatural things....?



Or maybe after 5 minutes after YOU are dead, you realise that Allah is the real god and well, too bad, how sad?

Has anyone ever reported Allah actually communicating with anyone? The Koran is the authoritative book concerning Allah, but there are no references of Allah actually communicating with the faithful. I wonder why that is so?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I define natural logic as that using the five senses.

Cool. Off course, one can't use senses that don't exist. So we are stuck with the five.

Spiritual discernment is something quite different and beyond the knowledge of rationalist thinkers.

I agree that it isn't rational.