Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

Daniel Martinovich

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They wouldn't call themselves Sabellians, or generally even know where their doctrine originated. There are many different flavors of Pentecostalists so I won't tar them all with the same brush, but the UPC is Sabellian out to 10 decimal places, whether they know to all it that or not. It's real easy to reinvent ancient heresies if you never knew they existed in the first place.
Oh yeah. The UPC. Jesus only. Forgot about them. About 5 million out of 500 million+ Pentecostals. They are sort of considered a cult by Pentecostals in general.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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We just call it modalism (I understand they are the same thing).

The largest church in my home town is a modalist pentecostal congregation which is part of the United Pentecostal Church, a very large "Jesus Only" denomination.
I forgot about them. Most Pentecostals consider that denomination sort of a cult.
 
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Paidiske

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I do not find that a bad thing.

Theology is basically an intellectual exercise of the mind, when God desires the heart.

Deut 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.​

Theology has the unique value of dividing us. But Paul tells us this:

Eph 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

13a until we all attain to the unity of the faith,​

IF we are to be a unified body of believers, it cannot be around doctrine. At least not yet.

It's interesting that according to all three synoptic gospels, Christ added "with all your mind."
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Indeed, there are some on CF that are Pentecostals and either Modalist, or similar. One does not run across it being discussed openly in the forums as it is a SOP violation for all the Christian forums, but I personally know of at least three Modalist Pentecostals and one Arian Pentecostal on CF - self declared as such.
I had forgotten about the UPC. About 5 million out of 500 million + Pentacostels. Most Pentecostals consider them sort of a cult.
 
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Dave-W

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It's interesting that according to all three synoptic gospels, Christ added "with all your mind."
Indeed. I thought about that fact just after I posted. Since we recite the Sh'ma (and that verse in Deut is part of that) I am much more familiar with it from there.

In 2 (Matt and Luke) He lists "mind" last, while in Mark it is next to last. In all 3 passages, "heart" is listed first.
 
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FatalHeart

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I believe most of what you say holds true, however, it is Bible knowledge which will spare you from shipwrecking your faith...it is full of truths which uphold us in times of trouble and instruct us as to which way to go to avoid Satan's ploys. To wantonly disregard God's Word, given for such purposes, is surely going to leave one with no excuse when having to confess on the Judgement Day. I can think of several passages to augment this, but feel you know them...Thy Word is a lamp to my feet being one.
In my opinion the churches should put more emphasis on the importance of Bible study...both self-study and group. Seems most group studies are not straight reading from the text...as though it is impossible for the reader to grasp that way. When in fact I John tells us it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

It's actually that easy. The pastors of today fear God moving and ursurping them, but He will when they are doing their jobs right. The fact is they are just as much a part of the body as any other and need to learn that they need the others just like the others need them. The more you get out of God's way and lead people to be led by Him, the more control you will have, not the less control, because God will be with you and fight for you and if you actually know your text, you can direct and correct things as they develop and, more so, the Spirit will confirm your words. You may even see a resurgence of miracles because God can trust putting His power behind what you say. That's been my experience anyway...
 
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Dave-W

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Paidiske

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We recite the gospel version, which is why I thought of it straight away. (There's that lex orandi, lex credendi in action...)

It'd be interesting to do a comparative study of the Hebrew and Greek words, but I don't have the Hebrew for it. I mean, I'd argue that "with all your soul" would include your mind anyway, but apparently Christ didn't think so...?
 
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Halbhh

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I believe most of what you say holds true, however, it is Bible knowledge which will spare you from shipwrecking your faith...it is full of truths which uphold us in times of trouble and instruct us as to which way to go to avoid Satan's ploys. To wantonly disregard God's Word, given for such purposes, is surely going to leave one with no excuse when having to confess on the Judgement Day. I can think of several passages to augment this, but feel you know them...Thy Word is a lamp to my feet being one.
In my opinion the churches should put more emphasis on the importance of Bible study...both self-study and group. Seems most group studies are not straight reading from the text...as though it is impossible for the reader to grasp that way. When in fact I John tells us it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

When you say it's more sound, key, needed to read/listen fully through books in the Bible, the New Testament, fully reading -- better than to recite creeds reflexively and know detailed church doctrines -- you've said the most true thing about all of this doctrinal knowledge discussion.

Doctrinal knowledge can't save.

The Word and it's message, the Good News, and the what-to-do -- these are key, central, crucial, essential.
 
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Halbhh

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It's interesting that according to all three synoptic gospels, Christ added "with all your mind."

Yes. In order to love with all of the mind and all of one's might/ability, all at once, when we are doing the greatest commandment, it's very good to turn off --
the internet device,
turn off the smart phone
turn off the radio/TV, etc.
feed the pets, lock them out of the room.

Love with all of your mind, no distractions. Focus is one way of loving with all of your mind. The rest of the world and all concerns disappear for a while (whether it's a special effort of a half hour, or just a special effort of a minute).
 
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Halbhh

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It's interesting that according to all three synoptic gospels, Christ added "with all your mind."

There's no better place to be, no better thing to be doing with that part of one's free time. No other activity that would have a better return on investment.
 
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DamianWarS

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Of the two, Sabellianism seems far more common. There are whole denominations made of Sabellians, most are Pentecostal.

I see alot of Nestorianism, Eutychianism, and Kenoticism floating around as well.
you must mean United Pentecostal or Oneness Pentecostal. Mainstream Pentecostal churches like the AoG are Chalcedonian.
 
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Dave-W

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It'd be interesting to do a comparative study of the Hebrew and Greek words, but I don't have the Hebrew for it. I'd argue that "with all your soul" would include your mind anyway,
The words are chol nafshecha. "all of your soul."

V’ahavta et Adonai Elohecha,
b’chol l’vavcha uv’chol nafsh’cha uv’chol
m’odecha. V’hayu had’varim ha-eileh
asher anochi m’tzav’cha hayom al
l’vavecha. V’shinantam l’vanecha v’dibarta
bam b’shivt’cha b’veitecha uv’lecht’cha
vaderech uv’shochb’cha uv’kumecha.
Uk’shartam l’ot al yadecha v’hayu
l’totafot bein einecha. Uch’tavtam
al m’zuzot beitecha uvish’arecha.

What is interesting on this is our Lord used a traditional rabbinic device for tying scriptural passages together. Both this passage (the greatest commandment) and the second "like it" [and you shall love your neighbor as yourself] start with the same word: V'ahavta. "And You Shall Love ...."
 
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Dave-W

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cult can mean "a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister."
That is a made up definition. (happens a lot in English) It is NOT the dictionary nor the etymological meaning.

Etymologically, the word comes from the Latin "cultus, -a, -um" which means hidden. So there has to be some element of belief or practice that is hidden from those on the outside. The dictionary adds a class of cult which is around a person. There is some guru at the top whose word is law. I have seen that even in regular denominational congregations. One I was in had a book store and EVERY single book, pamphlet and tape/CD series was by the senior pastor. Not even one by denomination or by any of the several assistant pastors. In a bible study a particular issue came up and I gave a standard traditional interpretation, but was corrected by the leader: "That is NOT how Pastor XYZ teaches it."
 
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DamianWarS

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That is a made up definition. (happens a lot in English) It is NOT the dictionary nor the etymological meaning.

Etymologically, the word comes from the Latin "cultus, -a, -um" which means hidden. So there has to be some element of belief or practice that is hidden from those on the outside. The dictionary adds a class of cult which is around a person. There is some guru at the top whose word is law. I have seen that even in regular denominational congregations. One I was in had a book store and EVERY single book, pamphlet and tape/CD series was by the senior pastor. Not even one by denomination or by any of the several assistant pastors. In a bible study a particular issue came up and I gave a standard traditional interpretation, but was corrected by the leader: "That is NOT how Pastor XYZ teaches it."
Don't shoot the messenger
cult | Definition of cult in US English by Oxford Dictionaries
 
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dzheremi

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Some of those creeds include the worship of Mary..

No they don't.

This is easy enough to address by looking at the actual text of the creeds themselves, just like I've been saying about the liturgy.

Nicene(-Constantinopolitan) Creed, plural version (This is how we recite it in the Coptic Orthodox Church. This is the only creed used by Orthodox Christians, though the Eastern Orthodox recite it in the singular)

We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.

+++

Apostle's Creed (Used by Western Christians; this is something called the "Ecumenical Version" according to wikipedia, but I don't know what that means)

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

+++

(Pseudo-)Athanasian Creed (Another Western creed, attributed traditionally to HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, but not actually written by him)

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
 
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Not David

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That's what people keep saying, yet I'm perfectly literate and remain unconvinced...

Anyway, the topic truly nauseates me so I'll skip the discussion.
Do you mind if I ask you what you don't like about the topic?
 
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You first have to define who "they" are. Second you have to compare what they say to the Bible.


Depends on what you mean by "gave birth to God". Did God come from Mary, certainly not. Was Mary the tool used by God to bring God incarnate to Earth, yes. Big big difference.
No Christian has ever said that Mary created God.
 
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