Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

[Jipsah]

If every statement in every creed was a copy of scripture, then just use scripture to defend your position.

You believe in the Trinity? Gimme the Scripture on that. The one that tells me about the Trinity, and what it means.

If someone asks you what you believe, you gonna recite the Bible for them? Or are you gonna give them your creed, made up on the spot?

Me, when I'm asked what I believe, I give a succinct answer that has been given by Christians for thousands of years: I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again from the dead! He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy catholic Church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Disagree with any of that? Think you can give a better answer? If so, I'm keen to hear your creed.

 

[Eloy Craft]

He said go and make disciples. Of who? God

FatalHeart, these days, the mission field for the average Christian is who ever enters their sphere of influence. For the most part the lives that you evangelize will remain hidden from you. I would say the work environment is the largest mission field. A good field ripe with all the challenges of surviving. Lots of opportunity to give and forgive and make Christ visible by contrast.

 

[Foxfyre]

Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Or both?

And how do we address these problems in our church communities?

-CryptoLutheran

The Churches will not all agree how to teach the Chrisian faith. If they did we would have one denomination. We don't. And probably won't at least until Jesus returns.

My main frustration is not the doctrine the church's teach though admittedly some seem to miss the point altogether. The Church was meant to be people gathering together for spiritual reinforcement and to encourage one another; i.e. people being the Church. So my frustration is in on a focus of DOING Church instead of BEING the Church. That happens when the rules, form, and process becomes more important than the spiritual edification of the people in the congregation.

 

[FatalHeart]

The Churches will not all agree how to teach the Chrisian faith. If they did we would have one denomination. We don't. And probably won't at least until Jesus returns.

My main frustration is not the doctrine the church's teach though admittedly some seem to miss the point altogether. The Church was meant to be people gathering together for spiritual reinforcement and to encourage one another; i.e. people being the Church. So my frustration is in on a focus of DOING Church instead of BEING the Church. That happens when the rules, form, and process becomes more important than the spiritual edification of the people in the congregation.

Division is from the sinful nature and can be shown scripturally to come from men that do not have the Spirit, who feed only themselves, for whom blackest darkness awaits.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Creeds say what they say, and to deny the Creeds is to preach heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

Some of those creeds include the worship of Mary..

So no.. I vehemently disagree.

 

[Paidiske]

None of the three major Creeds - Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian - suggest any worship of Mary.

 

[tampasteve]

Well, we have a new one.
A sect of messianic Jews are now saying that God the Father (the only God) designated Jesus to save the world through him.
That Jesus is not God.
And the Holy Spirit is just a worker.
Furthermore, people on the fence are buying it, because they don't go to church and are not schooled in anything but what comes to their own mind.

Sounds like a new form of Adoptionism to me. Yeah, if one is not properly catechized on the basics of doctrine one can fall for heresy based on what seems to be logical.

The bottom line is that the Trinity is tough to comprehend, it is beyond true comprehension. So, if one does not take a little time to learn the basics that the Church Fathers and councils decided on, based on the influence of the Holy Spirit, one can be easily swayed.

 

[FatalHeart]

Some of those creeds include the worship of Mary..

So no.. I vehemently disagree.

Sounds like a new form of Adoptionism to me. Yeah, if one is not properly catechized on the basics of doctrine one can fall for heresy based on what seems to be logical.

The bottom line is that the Trinity is tough to comprehend, it is beyond true comprehension. So, if one does not take a little time to learn the basics that the Church Fathers and councils decided on, based on the influence of the Holy Spirit, one can be easily swayed.

You mean read the Bible, right?

 

[tampasteve]

You mean read the Bible, right?

Of course. However, the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Bible, it is through the councils and Apostles and Church Fathers, with the direction of the Spirit that we are able to express the Trinity in the correct way using the implicit references in scripture. The very fact that it is not explicit in scripture is how one arrives at heresies such as Arianism, Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Oneness. These heresies use many of the same scripture passages to "prove" their positions - particularly Arianism.

 

[Hazelelponi]

None of the three major Creeds - Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian - suggest any worship of Mary.

That's what people keep saying, yet I'm perfectly literate and remain unconvinced...

Anyway, the topic truly nauseates me so I'll skip the discussion.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nvm.

 

[FatalHeart]

. <<< Repeat post

 

[FatalHeart]

Of course. However, the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Bible, it is through the councils and Apostles and Church Fathers, with the direction of the Spirit that we are able to express the Trinity in the correct way using the implicit references in scripture. The very fact that it is not explicit in scripture is how one arrives at heresies such as Arianism, Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Oneness. These heresies use many of the same scripture passages to "prove" their positions - particularly Arianism.

Well, accordingly, then, Biblically, you must agree that such a division or contradiction or heresy doesn't really come from the Spirit of God, in which case, the real problem is not a lack of guidance by the Spirit, but a lack of listening and stubbornness of the heart. It's not necessarily that the scriptures are unclear because they have everything we need for godly living. The real problem then is the honesty and sincerity of those that believe those things. So it is a problem of the heart just as it is a lack of guidance, which you have said, but I just got done watching a Muslim preacher preaching Islam and his service was exactly like the services I have seen everywhere in the Christian churches.

When you profess that someone is being led by the Holy Spirit, unless you can show me anything different than the psychological games these people are playing, governing doctrine, and developing cultures around a teacher or a church leader or some book written somewhere, until you can show me any difference in the tears of joy of any convert of any religion, and their honest profession of faith or movement or feeling of that particular god, I will remain skeptical when someone says, "the direction of the Spirit," because there are many spirits, and not all of them don a name different from Jesus.

I just supremely dislike the pride that comes from, "I follow Paul." Christ came with power. Paul came with power. Where is your power?

 

[Dave-W]

So much Christianity in the US has very little theological content in worship. It's very much about your "walk" with Jesus/God and what that feels like.

I do not find that a bad thing.

Theology is basically an intellectual exercise of the mind, when God desires the heart.

Deut 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.​

Theology has the unique value of dividing us. But Paul tells us this:

Eph 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

13a until we all attain to the unity of the faith,​

IF we are to be a unified body of believers, it cannot be around doctrine. At least not yet.

 

[Dave-W]

Been in Pentecostal circles 35 years. Never heard of Sabellianism, nor any Pentacostals who believe in it.

It pops up every now and again on CF. What some folks call "Oneness" Pentecostalism.

We just call it modalism (I understand they are the same thing).

The largest church in my home town is a modalist pentecostal congregation which is part of the United Pentecostal Church, a very large "Jesus Only" denomination.

 

[FatalHeart]

I do not find that a bad thing.

Theology is basically an intellectual exercise of the mind, when God desires the heart.

Deut 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.​

Theology has the unique value of dividing us. But Paul tells us this:

Eph 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

13a until we all attain to the unity of the faith,​

IF we are to be a unified body of believers, it cannot be around doctrine. At least not yet.

Oh, it will be around doctrine. God wrote the Bible. We are saved by the message of the Bible. The unity already exists, but pride is keeping it at bay. It won't be hard to gather God's sheep together, it just will take honesty and an actual belief in His interactions with us as people. I think people like to keep God at bay, and do not like to have Him real in their lives. As long as you keep God as an idea, He is presentable, but as soon as His hand is real, so is your conviction, and so is your sin, and so is your need to repent.

I feel as though the majority of churches are only interested in making money, and, while that might seem a harsh critigue, teachers, as well as pastors, have the Biblical job of arming the people they speak to and by avoiding the talk about real doctrine or supporting what the Spirit will do to clarify the discourse, they avoid conflict that would result in the false Christians from giving and going there entirely. We like to think of ourselves as forgiving, when really we are cowards. We like to think of ourselves as accepting, when really we are greedy and idolatrous. We like to preach love without actually preaching obedience or teaching those who disobey that they are wrong.

I believe people are hungry for the truth and that those who truly know God are fully capable of teaching these things in a kind and direct way that will convict people, lead them to their pride, and let them know, that they are wrong in the kindness that comes from God and the passion that it instills when people hear the truth. I think the spirit is willing. I think that men will come together. That we won't fear intellectual conversation or disagreement, because we will understand that true peace can only be reached by actually dealing with problems rather than avoiding the things that are uncomfortable to hear and talk about and figure out. I don't think God avoids truth. I think people do. And I think when God starts appointing leaders who will run with that truth in a godly way, then you will see that doctrine, true doctrine, will lead to less division, not more. We are, after all, the people of God, and through God, it will be accomplished.

 

[tampasteve]

Been in Pentecostal circles 35 years. Never heard of Sabellianism, nor any Pentacostals who believe in it.

We just call it modalism (I understand they are the same thing).

The largest church in my home town is a modalist pentecostal congregation which is part of the United Pentecostal Church, a very large "Jesus Only" denomination.

Indeed, there are some on CF that are Pentecostals and either Modalist, or similar. One does not run across it being discussed openly in the forums as it is a SOP violation for all the Christian forums, but I personally know of at least three Modalist Pentecostals and one Arian Pentecostal on CF - self declared as such.

 

[Dave-W]

You believe in the Trinity? Gimme the Scripture on that. The one that tells me about the Trinity, and what it means.

I have a good friend who is a Reformed pastor. He told me (and I can understand the statement) that if you try to dig any deeper into the meaning of the Trinity beyond "One God, Three Persons" you run into one of the ancient heresies. So we can tell you a dozen things that the Trinity is NOT, but we cannot define what it IS.

 

[Dave-W]

Indeed, there are some on CF that are Pentecostals and either Modalist, or similar. One does not run across it being discussed openly in the forums as it is a SOP violation for all the Christian forums, but I personally know of at least three Modalist Pentecostals and one Arian Pentecostal on CF - self declared as such.

And I know several modalist Messianics. Not sure if there are any here on CF.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This is because 98%+ people in most every church, including Lutheran (and a high portion of Catholic too is my guess) would have little clue about many of the doctrinal distinctions being discussed in this thread past simply knowing what the Trinity is, or being familiar with the wording of the creeds. How many know what "Arian" is without looking it up? Why not ask 10 at random in your own congregating you don't discuss theology with, and find out. I'd be surprised if even 1 knows. Why would they need to? They learned of the Trinity, and that was it. But fortunately it's not such fine knowledge of various old disputes that saves anyone, but faith in Christ and what He said, even for someone knowing little more than that He rose and they are forgiven through Him and that we should love one another and can pray the prayer He gave us. Little knowledge is required for salvation, and having all doctrines correct is optimal but optional also. Most never worry themselves with such, but correctly worry instead to forgive another or whether they love as they should, crucial things that do matter for their individual walk.

I believe most of what you say holds true, however, it is Bible knowledge which will spare you from shipwrecking your faith...it is full of truths which uphold us in times of trouble and instruct us as to which way to go to avoid Satan's ploys. To wantonly disregard God's Word, given for such purposes, is surely going to leave one with no excuse when having to confess on the Judgement Day. I can think of several passages to augment this, but feel you know them...Thy Word is a lamp to my feet being one.
In my opinion the churches should put more emphasis on the importance of Bible study...both self-study and group. Seems most group studies are not straight reading from the text...as though it is impossible for the reader to grasp that way. When in fact I John tells us it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us.