When do you think the Church got corrupted?

[Not David]

Ah. Post 32 we find out your actual agenda.

However, the NT should be our example.

The NT didn't exist in a vacuum
How can it be an agenda when those are the groups who say the Church went the wrong way?

 

[redleghunter]

Are you same guy who says Iraneus support Sola Scriptura

He did say the Scriptures were the ground and pillar of our faith:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)
​

If you want to call that Sola Scriptura that’s fine, but see his words as confirming what is the ground and pillar of the faith.

when he also claims to follow the Traditions of the Church?

Which traditions would those be specifically?

The practice of adopting pagan practices is called inculturation

Cardinal Newman was justifying the syncretism as the church sanctifying what the pagans had. Yet I appreciate his scholarship and honest approach.

 

[Not David]

He did say the Scriptures were the ground and pillar of our faith:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)
​

If you want to call that Sola Scriptura that’s fine, but see his words as confirming what is the ground and pillar of the faith.

Which traditions would those be specifically?


Cardinal Newman was justifying the syncretism as the church sanctifying what the pagans had. Yet I appreciate his scholarship and honest approach.

Which is funny because someone who relies only in the Bible has the verse that says "The Church is the foundation and pillar of the Truth" which according to your logic would disprove Sola Scriptura.

 

[redleghunter]

Which is funny because someone who relies only in the Bible has the verse that says "The Church is the foundation and pillar of the Truth" which according to your logic would disprove Sola Scriptura.

Absolutely not. As the church upholds the Truth which is what a foundation and pillars do...uphold the structure. Not create their own truth.

And that is what Irenaeus was getting at with what I quoted.

So please, now you...which traditions did Irenaeus state?

 

[redleghunter]

The NT didn't exist in a vacuum
How can it be an agenda when those are the groups who say the Church went the wrong way?

One only has to read the NT to find the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Even your church calls the NT Holy Spirit inspired Sacred Scriptures, the Word of God.

 

[HTacianas]

I used to think only Muslims and Mormons thought that but I realized some Christians have this idea. Even I used to think the reason for the Reformation was that the Church became corrupted. So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

The Church itself never became corrupted. I accept on faith that "the gates of hell will never prevail against it".

There have always been false teachers in the Church, but the Church has always had a way of dealing with them. The Ecumenical Councils were convened to combat heresy in the Church, thereby exposing and excommunicating them.

The protestant reformation was at first ostensibly to combat abuses in the Western Church, but rather than ending the abuses, rapidly set out to redefine the Christian faith, something the reformers never had the authority to do.

That has led to countless heresies, and seemingly spawns a new one on a daily basis. So much so that it is difficult for most laymen to even recognize the Church.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Corrupted is too strong a word. Jesus' teachings were never completely lost, and I don't buy the idea that somehow transmission of his authority broke down. But the Church did change did move from a Jewish to a Greek mindset. They also almost completely lost Jesus' concept of the Kingdom of God, and started emphasizing saving people from hell. Saving people is part of Jesus' message, but the overall shape changed. The biggest change, though, was ethics. Purity, particularly sexual purity, became a focus. Jesus didn't use the concept, as it was characteristic of the Pharisees.

Which fallacious premise has been refuted, and means that you see the NT church as revealed in Acts - Rev. as deviating from Christ, thus relying on the discredited red-letter hermeneutic, as if the words in Acts - Rev. were not from Christ to His Spirit, which they were.

Saving souls from Hell and personal purity certainly were a primary focus of Christ, even in the gospels alone. He even warns of Hell more than most of the epistles. Holiness or Hell.

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10)

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (Matthew 11:23)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:33)

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:23-24)

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:27-28)

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:42)

And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:50)

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 8:12)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Matthew 19:17-19)

Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. (John 4:16-18)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend [which word is used by Him in reference to fornication in Revelation 2:14], and them which do iniquity [transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4]. (Matthew 13:41)

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (Mark 9:47)

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19:4-6)

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:10-11)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. (Matthew 23:25)

 

[PeaceByJesus]

In the meantime, the Church Jesus founded remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding, throughout the world after 2,000 years. You just can't beat God's plan.

Once again you resort posting propaganda. As told you before, comparing one church with whatever is relegated as Protestantism is not a valid comparison, nor is the Scriptural basis for what one believes based on official paper professions. Instead, as James said, "I will shew thee my faith by my works," (James 2:18) and the Lord said "by their fruits ye shall know them," Mt. 7:20) and the reality is that trad. evangelicals have consistently testified to being far more unified in basic beliefs (and thus opposed by both liberals and trad. Caths alike) in word and deed than Catholics.

Behind the veneer of unity Catholicism exists in schism and sects, even more so with V2 and other modernist contradictions and now Frank the so-called "hippie pope." And rather than the RC magisterium effecting unity, as one poster wryly observed,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan, Against The Grain

Also, Partial List Of Divergent Beliefs Between Catholics

• Within official teachings:

1. Where unbaptized babies go if and when they die.
   
   
2. Geocentricity or Heliocentricity
   
   
3. Whether Trent closed the canon or not
   
   
4. Whether canonizations are or always infallible.
   
   
5. Who all the [so-called] “church fathers” are.
   
   
6. What the church Fathers meant in many cases.
   
   
7. How many Scripture verses have been infallibly or officially interpreted.
   
   
8. What multitudes of Scripture verses surely mean.
   
   
9. The meaning and scope of the inerrancy of Scripture (“for our salvation” or more).
   
   
10. The official immutable position on many theological issues.
    
    
11. The reconciliation of the efficacy of grace with human freedom.
    
    
12. The relationship between Scripture and Tradition: partim-partim or not.
    
    
13. How many infallible teachings there are, and what they all are
    
    
14. What magisterial level multitudes of teachings belong to, and thus the manner of assent required.
    
    
15. What required assent to non-infallible official teachings all entails.
    
    
16. The meaning of official Catholic teaching to varying degrees.
    
    
17. How to reconcile Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Lumen Gentium,and if former Catholics who die as faithful evangelical-type Protestants are lost.
    
    
18. Whether the anathemas of Trent apply to Protestants today and what they entail.
    
    
19. Whether or not a pope can be deposed.
    
    
20. How many bishops are necessary for this Collegial infallibility to be ensured?
    
    
21. Whether the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed or whether she was assumed before death
    
    
22. Whether Roman Catholicism promoted slavery

• Partial List Of Implicitly Sanctioned Divergent Beliefs Between Catholics outside official teachings.
  
  
• Partial List Of Divergent Beliefs Between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox

Thus, based upon facts and the Biblical criteria for determining belief, the RCC cannot be one in belief, while as for being the one true NT church, Catholic distinctives are simply not manifest in the the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

Therefore the Catholic may argue that in any conflict, Scripture, history and tradition only consist of and mean what she says, if she does say so herself.

 

[Godcrazy]

Are you saying that's the Catholic Church, and noone else? Then how about.... Child abuse.... Gays.... More abuse . .. Idolatry.... Etc. ...

The reason for the Protestant Rebellion was one proud man's opinion that he could do a better job of interpreting the Bible than the one Church Jesus Christ founded, to which He had promised the fullness of truth. He defected from God's Church and set up an unauthorized manmade church, teaching his own personal interpretations of the Bible. Before he died there were 8 other denominations that had broken away from his church because they didn't agree with his biblical interpretations. The doctrinal chaos of Protestantism had begun. Today, a few hundred years later, there are over 6,000 registered Protestant denominations, plus more than 20,000 so-called "non-denominational" Protestant churches, each one claiming to be teaching the truth because they get their teaching "right out of the Bible", yet the teaching of each one conflicting with the teaching of the others. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so it is obvious that a great deal of untruth is being taught. In the meantime, the Church Jesus founded remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding, throughout the world after 2,000 years. You just can't beat God's plan.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

June 20, 680 at 4:05 PM, on a Wednesday. Seriously, it's like asking when you became fat, and which meal caused it.

The church, itself, did not become corrupt. The hierarchy became corrupt. Much of the official doctrine became corrupt. Later, even the corruption became corrupt. God has always had his faithful, found among the simple. What people officially called "the Church" was never for them to decide. Some dude in a fancy hat can declare it, but only Christ decides it. In truth, the church was never corrupted, but what you call the church was corrupted one bite at a time over the course of centuries.

What should be asked is, despite all the inevitable corruption how is it this thing of the Church has survived almost 2000 years. There is a miracle in that.

If that excites you, then Hinduism and Buddhism must have you going into apoplectic fits. Survival is not an indicator of anything but that it fits well into human nature. That's not a great commendation.

 

[Alithis]

I used to think only Muslims and Mormons thought that but I realized some Christians have this idea. Even I used to think the reason for the Reformation was that the Church became corrupted. So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

only thought what?
and you left out the rcc equal in its falshoods

 

[Not David]

Absolutely not. As the church upholds the Truth which is what a foundation and pillars do...uphold the structure. Not create their own truth.

And that is what Irenaeus was getting at with what I quoted.

So please, now you...which traditions did Irenaeus state?

The oral traditions. So please stop saying Iraneus supported Sola Scriptura which is misleading.

 

[Not David]

One only has to read the NT to find the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Even your church calls the NT Holy Spirit inspired Sacred Scriptures, the Word of God.

You mean the NT which a lot of denominations takes different doctrines from? The Bible is considered Sacred Scriptures being part of Sacred Tradition in the Church I go.

 

[FatalHeart]

I used to think only Muslims and Mormons thought that but I realized some Christians have this idea. Even I used to think the reason for the Reformation was that the Church became corrupted. So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock." It's a short answer, but it is also a scriptural one.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I used to think only Muslims and Mormons thought that but I realized some Christians have this idea. Even I used to think the reason for the Reformation was that the Church became corrupted. So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

Your question is not detailed enough. If you mean totally corrupted/apostate? Never. Do you mean moral failings? Acts 5.

Do you mean false doctrine? See 1 Corinthians.

If you mean progressively accretion of traditions not seen in the the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation, then it began after the apostles died.

If you mean growth of a Caesario-papacy, then some Catholic and other scholarship can help .

If you mean unScriptural and corrupted leadership then a 4th c. pope who as hired murderous thugs in order to secure his throne from his rival would do.

If you mean leadership becoming so morally corrupted that, in the words of Ratzinger, "The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.“

Or as Cardinal Bellarmine reports, "there was almost an entire abandonment of equity in ecclesiastical judgments; in morals, no discipline; in sacred literature, no erudition; in divine things, no reverence; religion was almost extinct."

Then it would be about 100 years before the Reformation .

If you mean a church with leadership which became so immoral and doctrinally corrupted, impenitent and recalcitrant that it resulted in a form of divided kingdom, then that would be the condition that resulted in the need if imperfect Reformation.

 

[klutedavid]

I used to think only Muslims and Mormons thought that but I realized some Christians have this idea. Even I used to think the reason for the Reformation was that the Church became corrupted. So I want to know the date and reason that damaged the Church.

Judging by some of the letters written to the churches in the New Testament. I would ask the question, whether the early church ever actually became airborne?

Given the complexity of the scripture in different places, given that early church authors were also somewhat error prone. I doubt whether the church ever approached any perfection in doctrine.

The church never became corrupt, as the church did not start it's walk free from error.

 

[seeking.IAM]

The Church is pure and can never be corrupt. Where corruption flourishes ceases to be the Church.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Are you saying that's the Catholic Church, and noone else? Then how about.... Child abuse.... Gays.... More abuse . .. Idolatry.... Etc. ...

Those do not count unless they are by Protestants, for while the Lord said, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them," (Matthew 7:20) for the RC apologist it means, "Wherefore by their official statements ye shall know them." Ted Kennedy RCs to traditional Catholic contemners of Pope Francis are all manifestly considered members by Rome, thus showing in part what she believes.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

The Church is pure and can never be corrupt. Where corruption flourishes ceases to be the Church.

The the one true church which He promised to overcome the gates of Hell is the Lord's body, to which He is married, since it uniquely only always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes ever believer into, (1Co. 12:13) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

 

[Godcrazy]

Ye shall know them by their fruit.