Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

[redleghunter]

No, PSA is not biblical and it is not at the heart of the gospel.

Even Catholic Mel Gibson quoted Isaiah 53 at the beginning of The Passion of the Christ.

 

[Afra]

Even Catholic Mel Gibson quoted Isaiah 53 at the beginning of The Passion of the Christ.

The Catechism also cites Isaiah 53 with respect to the our Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. I suppose now that you are going to tell me that the Pope is Protestant?

 

[redleghunter]

The Catechism also cites Isaiah 53 with respect to the our Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. I suppose now that you are going to tell me that the Pope is Protestant?

The current Pope? Some don’t think he is Catholic.

 

[Afra]

The current Pope? Some don’t think he is Catholic.

And some people think that our Lord Jesus never existed, and that the tooth fairy is real.

 

[redleghunter]

And some people think that our Lord Jesus never existed, and that the tooth fairy is real.

And a blind dog may not see the kitchen table but can surely smell the cooking.

 

[FireDragon76]

Even Catholic Mel Gibson quoted Isaiah 53 at the beginning of The Passion of the Christ.

That doesn't necessarily imply PSA as you would understand it. PSA is situated within the entire Calvinistic type system, it wouldn't make sense for a church that doesn't have that theology to affirm that doctrine.

For instance, traditionally Arminians did not understand the Cross as PSA. They understood it through Hugo Grotius' theology, where Christ is punished as a gesture of God's displeasure with all sin.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do not even believe in the penal substitutionary atonement theory of the atonement but rather the Recapitulation theory of atonement

That tends to be the approach most mainline Protestants take now days, or something like it.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Even Catholic Mel Gibson quoted Isaiah 53 at the beginning of The Passion of the Christ.

Again, you're projecting meaning onto Sacred Scripture (as paraphrased at the beginning of Gibson's movie).

"By His wounds, we are healed". That could generally apply to nearly any interpretive model of the sacrifice on the cross. Indeed, it takes no more effort to apply that passage to Satisfaction Theory as to PSA.

 

[redleghunter]

Again, you're projecting meaning onto Sacred Scripture (as paraphrased at the beginning of Gibson's movie).

"By His wounds, we are healed". That could generally apply to nearly any interpretive model of the sacrifice on the cross. Indeed, it takes no more effort to apply that passage to Satisfaction Theory as to PSA.

Read it all compliments of Bible Hub
Isaiah 53:
The Suffering Servant
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

1Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,

and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,

no beauty that we should desire Him.

3He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.

Like one from whom men hide their faces,

He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.

4Surely He took on our infirmities

and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God,

struck down and afflicted.

5But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed.

6We all like sheep have gone astray,

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on Him

the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet He did not open His mouth.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

8By oppressiona and judgment He was taken away,

and who can recount His descendants?

For He was cut off from the land of the living;

He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

A Grave Assigned
(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in His death,

although He had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer.

And when His soul is made a guilt offering,b

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of lifec and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great,d

and He will divide the spoils with the strong,e

because He has poured out His life unto death,

and He was numbered among the transgressors.

Yet He bore the sin of many

and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Read it all compliments of Bible Hub
Isaiah 53:
The Suffering Servant
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

1Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,

and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,

no beauty that we should desire Him.

3He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.

Like one from whom men hide their faces,

He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.

4Surely He took on our infirmities

and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God,

struck down and afflicted.

5But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed.

6We all like sheep have gone astray,

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on Him

the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet He did not open His mouth.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

8By oppressiona and judgment He was taken away,

and who can recount His descendants?

For He was cut off from the land of the living;

He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

A Grave Assigned
(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in His death,

although He had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer.

And when His soul is made a guilt offering,b

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of lifec and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great,d

and He will divide the spoils with the strong,e

because He has poured out His life unto death,

and He was numbered among the transgressors.

Yet He bore the sin of many

and made intercession for the transgressors.

Lovely.

Find me the part that says "God the Father will punish His own Son for the sins of mankind as though the Son Himself is literally guilty of those sins" or something similar.

 

[redleghunter]

Lovely.

Find me the part that says "God the Father will punish His own Son for the sins of mankind as though the Son Himself is literally guilty of those sins" or something similar.

You mean that Christ took the wrath do us? Did you read this part?

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering,b

 

[redleghunter]

as though the Son Himself is literally guilty of those sins" or something similar.

Have no idea where you get this.

How do you comprehend the following?

2 Corinthians 5:

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

You mean that Christ took the wrath do us? Did you read this part?

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering,b

I didn't miss that.

But I'm not sure you understand that the passage you quoted literally argues against your position. "Guilt offering". As I'm sure you know, under the Mosaic Law, animals were sacrificed to cover sins. But said animals were not assumed either by God or by the Israelites who sacrificed them to be in any way guilty of committing those sins. Rather, the animals were offered as sacrifices to please God. Those were guilt offerings.

Calling Our Lord a guilt offering echoes that. Our Lord was not thought by God the Father to be juridically guilty of mankind's sins and punished accordingly. Rather, that passage more strongly supports my Church's view of the Satisfaction Theory of atonement.

Have no idea where you get this.

How do you comprehend the following?

2 Corinthians 5:

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

I comprehend this as well. But this does not say that Our Lord was punished for mankind's sins because He was viewed by God to be personally guilty of committing those sins.

Again, though with respect since I think my last post came off as unintentionally sarcastic, I believe you are projecting meaning onto this passage which the words themselves do not say.

 

[Afra]

Read it all compliments of Bible Hub
Isaiah 53:
The Suffering Servant
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

1Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,

and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,

no beauty that we should desire Him.

3He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.

Like one from whom men hide their faces,

He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.

4Surely He took on our infirmities

and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God,

struck down and afflicted.

5But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed.

6We all like sheep have gone astray,

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on Him

the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet He did not open His mouth.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

8By oppressiona and judgment He was taken away,

and who can recount His descendants?

For He was cut off from the land of the living;

He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

A Grave Assigned
(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in His death,

although He had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer.

And when His soul is made a guilt offering,b

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of lifec and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great,d

and He will divide the spoils with the strong,e

because He has poured out His life unto death,

and He was numbered among the transgressors.

Yet He bore the sin of many

and made intercession for the transgressors.

Let me ask you one simple question.

Is it just to punish the innocent?

 

[redleghunter]

I didn't miss that.

But I'm not sure you understand that the passage you quoted literally argues against your position. "Guilt offering". As I'm sure you know, under the Mosaic Law, animals were sacrificed to cover sins. But said animals were not assumed either by God or by the Israelites who sacrificed them to be in any way guilty of committing those sins. Rather, the animals were offered as sacrifices to please God. Those were guilt offerings.

Calling Our Lord a guilt offering echoes that. Our Lord was not thought by God the Father to be juridically guilty of mankind's sins and punished accordingly. Rather, that passage more strongly supports my Church's view of the Satisfaction Theory of atonement.

I comprehend this as well. But this does not say that Our Lord was punished for mankind's sins because He was viewed by God to be personally guilty of committing those sins.

Again, though with respect since I think my last post came off as unintentionally sarcastic, I believe you are projecting meaning onto this passage which the words themselves do not say.

Who advocated Jesus Christ was guilty of our sins? This is a gross misunderstanding you are proposing.

Substitution and Ransom are valid positions just incomplete.

 

[redleghunter]

But I'm not sure you understand that the passage you quoted literally argues against your position.

Absolutely not because you ignored the first sentence.

 

[redleghunter]

Let me ask you one simple question.

Is it just to punish the innocent?

Are you actually asking if it is just for an innocent man to suffer for a guilty man?

Your first Pope said yes.

1 Peter 3:

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[redleghunter]

Again, though with respect since I think my last post came off as unintentionally sarcastic, I believe you are projecting meaning onto this passage which the words themselves do not say.

Who was pleased to crush Him?

 

[mark kennedy]

Lovely.

Find me the part that says "God the Father will punish His own Son for the sins of mankind as though the Son Himself is literally guilty of those sins" or something similar.

What on earth could that mean? Jesus took our place on that cross, is there another interpretation?

 

[truefiction1]

Im not sure I fully appreciate the difference between imputed and infused. At conversion, just as Abraham believed and it was credited to him for righteousness, the believer is righteous based on grace through faith. Practical works of righteousness nessacarily follow and the new nature begins to grow and ultimately bear fruit. Its like having your debts paid off and money deposited in your account. Sometimes we confuse justification that happens at conversion with the sanctification process that follows.

Sundown today is Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement. The high priest would enter the holy of holies with blood and incense to make atonement for the sin of the people. This is the idea of 1 John 2:2 is Gods atonement remains even if the believer stumbles. It is grace that nurtures the works of rightiousness, ultimately righteousness is practical. We are infused, that is filled with the Holy Spirit. Its not just an acquital, its an ongoing relationship that begins with atonement, continues based on it, and ultimatly bears fruit to the glory of God.

I think we are confused if we believe that there can be a separation between what is imputed and that which is infused. Abraham "believed" God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. Abraham's belief is not disconnected from his actions: His belief caused him to raise his hand to slay his only son in obedience to the will of God. Abrahams faith was = to denying himself, taking up his cross and following Christ, even to his own death or the death of his only son. Abraham was righteous by the power of God's grace, which he had received through hearing with faith. To separate the "belief/faith" of Abraham from his actually having become righteous by grace, is to lie about the nature of Abraham's faith, and to lie about what salvation even is. Salvation is "being made righteous by grace (the Holy Spirit)", through the "hearing of faith"

There is no confusion of justification and sanctification. It's just that they are two sides of one coin, and where one side is lacking, the coin ceases to be valuable, and will be good for nothing but to be melted by fire.