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Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

Ripheus27

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You are going to have to unwrap that a bit.

I know the talk about credits and debts and how this relates to the concept of imputation. But the concept of imputation in itself is not the same thing. Having Christ's righteousness credited to us is not identical to having it imputed to us. Now, interpreting the relation of justification as having "money" that Christ earned, put into our moral bank account, so to speak, is not so unseemly, at least not on the face of it; but it sounds even more metaphorical than sheer imputation, to be honest. (At least to me it sounds so.)

I’ll await your alternate translation or your own personal translation from the Koine Greek.

To be honest, I'm just saying that either there's a better translation somewhere out there, or else the passage is an outright contradiction. It sounds like saying, "Death follows sin; but where there is no law no one is held to be sinful; but these people who were not under this law, who were not held to be sinful, still were followed by death," which I don't see the point of. It amounts to saying that we are subject to death not because of the law of sin and death but out of nowhere, so to speak. (I realize the imputation-theoretic assumption must be that the Adam-to-Moses generation died for Adam's sin, with Adam being under a law, but my suspicion is that Paul is making another fine point about the metaphysics of the Mosaic Law, one he made differently, or at least more clearly, elsewhere.)
 
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Tree of Life

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As a general thing, this thread seems to be strangely alternating between discussing the supposed imputed righteousness of Christ and penal substitutionary atonement apologetics. That's not intended to be a swipe at anybody. I'm just noticing some PSA theory stuff popping up in some of these posts, that's all.

The two items are directly connected and stand or fall together.
 
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Tree of Life

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Specifically how are those infants saved?

They are put into Christ, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and justified in Christ. They are not saved in the normal way by hearing the gospel and repenting and believing since they are unable to do so.
 
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thecolorsblend

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The two items are directly connected and stand or fall together.
By now, I assume you realize that penal substitutionary atonement theory has no truck with the Catholic Church.
 
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FireDragon76

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The modern Catholic church, yes, I agree.

It is true that penal substitution is more of a Reformed doctrine in how it is typically articulated by evangelicals in the US, but something like it can be found in Aquinas's theology.

However, I think I can understand why the CC no longer emphasizes this particular understanding of the Cross. To many people, it is confusing and does not demonstrate the love of God clearly.
 
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redleghunter

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It is true that penal substitution is more of a Reformed doctrine in how it is typically articulated by evangelicals in the US, but something like it can be found in Aquinas's theology.

However, I think I can understand why the CC no longer emphasizes this particular understanding of the Cross. To many people, it is confusing and does not demonstrate the love of God clearly.
In a few others as I have quoted previously.
 
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FireDragon76

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Of course our blessed Lord suffered, but you guys are asserting that he received the punishment that was due us. The punishment we are due is eternal death in hell, which our Lord did not suffer.

It is important to not understand every detail of salvation in a strictly juridical sense. Reprobation has more to do with being enemies of God as a consequence of the fall than something that is strictly our "due" in the sense of God actively choosing it for us.

In the theory of penal substitution or satisfactionary atonement, its sufficient that Christ dies to pay satisfaction for Adam's sin, which results in his physical death. In Lutheran theology (and I believe for Catholics as well), Christ's descent into Hell is understood as both a humiliation but also a victory, not necessarily a matter of making satisfaction in a legal sense.

As the Easter Exultet proclaims, in some sense our fall merited our salvation, owing to God's mercy. Our fallen state and our emnity with God is not God's last word for us.
 
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Afra

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It is important to not understand every detail of salvation in a strictly juridical sense. Reprobation has more to do with being enemies of God as a consequence of the fall than something that is strictly our "due" in the sense of God actively choosing it for us.

In the theory of penal substitution or satisfactionary atonement, its sufficient that Christ dies to pay satisfaction for Adam's sin, which results in his physical death. In Lutheran theology (and I believe for Catholics as well), Christ's descent into Hell is understood as both a humiliation but also a victory, not necessarily a matter of making satisfaction in a legal sense.

As the Easter Exultet proclaims, in some sense our fall merited our salvation, owing to God's mercy. Our fallen state and our emnity with God is not God's last word for us.
Sure, but why physical death and not a slap on the wrist? What I asserted is that penal substitution renders our Lord’s death unnecessary, thus is an unjust punishment.

I don’t think you can just say that penal substitution merely requires satisfaction. If that were true there would be no way to distinguish it from the other satisfaction theories.

I don’t think our Lord decended into hell as we commonly call it. I take it that the Apostle’s Creed refers to the Limbo of the Fathers (as an aside).
 
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Tree of Life

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By now, I assume you realize that penal substitutionary atonement theory has no truck with the Catholic Church.

Yes not with the Roman Catholic Church. It's very sad.
 
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Tree of Life

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No, it is sad that people believe in the false doctrine of penal substitution.
No. It is sad that people deny the biblical doctrine of PSA, which is the very heart of the gospel. There is really no gospel without it.
 
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bling

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It is important to not understand every detail of salvation in a strictly juridical sense. Reprobation has more to do with being enemies of God as a consequence of the fall than something that is strictly our "due" in the sense of God actively choosing it for us.

In the theory of penal substitution or satisfactionary atonement, its sufficient that Christ dies to pay satisfaction for Adam's sin, which results in his physical death. In Lutheran theology (and I believe for Catholics as well), Christ's descent into Hell is understood as both a humiliation but also a victory, not necessarily a matter of making satisfaction in a legal sense.

As the Easter Exultet proclaims, in some sense our fall merited our salvation, owing to God's mercy. Our fallen state and our emnity with God is not God's last word for us.
Atonement is a huge topic with many conflicting “theories” with no good answer.

I had to develop my own understanding, since I could not find anything that did not contradict God, His Love, mercy, justice and God being our Father.



The most popular explanation of atonement seems to be penal substitution (PS), but there are lots of issues:



PS is not fair or just by human standards even if the innocent is willing, so why would God in scripture and Jesus in behavior give us a different standard and say His is perfect?

PS makes God out to have the problem needing something in order to forgive people.

PS has God responsible/cause for the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ.

PS loses all the benefit that comes from disciplining/punishing the guilty



If God is Love, how could God have a problem forgiving people? The reason given for “penal substitution” is God cannot forgive us without Jesus being our substitute, but that makes God out to having a problem, lacking in Love someway, and being almost blood thirsty.

It also does not explain how something 100% forgiven has to also be 100% paid for since that is not the way things work. If the debt were paid in full there would be no need for forgiveness and if the debt is forgiven payment is not needed.

Also, if Penal substitution is what happened with the cross why did Peter not mention it in his excellent “Christ Crucified” sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2).

What is the relationship between “forgiveness” and punishment of the individual for a transgression? (most theories of atonement like to talk about “sin” needing punishment yet sin cannot be “punished”, only people can be punished.)

Would the perfect parent (the one you would like to be and be like God) see to the punishment or discipline of his/her children in order to have the Love to forgive those children?

The best parent does not “punish” (discipline) their children in order for the parent to have the love to forgive, they punish (discipline with time out or something) their children for the benefit that discipline provides?

God does not have a “problem” forgiving us, but we need to be disciplined somehow in order to obtain the benefits from being disciplined. So God somehow need to see to our discipline for our transgressions without killing us and yet be fair, just and show us His concern/Love.

What are the “benefits” to being fairly (disciplined) for our transgressions?

Answers:

Deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.



Just as the father wanted his sons to be like himself in the prodigal son story, God wants us to choose to humbly accept His Love and become like He is. The only initial way for humans to obtain Godly type Love is as a free gift automatically “...He that is forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)”. That Love can later grow with use, but cannot be developed independently or instinctively possessed by the individual. Thus, the need for sin and likely alternatives on earth (the perceived pleasures of sin).



God the Father is doing everything God can do to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective which includes (at great personal cost to God) the allowing a willing Christ to go to the cross.

Christ is not trying to “pay off the debt created by our sins” since our sins created an impossible debt to pay. That “debt” cannot be paid (it is totally irreconcilable) but it can be “forgiven”. God’s Love can allow Him to forgive our huge debt without Christ going to the cross. Christ is not trying to make “restitution” for us (that is not possible), but is providing a way for us as children to be disciplined (disciplining is not bringing about restitution) so the disciplining does not have to equal the “restitution” or hell for those that refuse the disciplining in this life. Discipline is not punishment although in scripture negative discipline is often translated punishment.



The analogy of a ransoming is an excellent fit to what is happening Christ uses it, , Paul, John, Peter and the author of Hebrews all use it, but that does not mean the Ransom theory of atonement is correct for many reasons including God not owing satan anything and God not needing to pay satan to get His children back. We, as sinners, are holding captive in sin ourselves; we are the kidnappers of our own self. When we appeal to an unbeliever to become free, the person holding him back is himself. We do not pray to God to release the individual and we do not perform an exorcism on the individual. The prodigal son was not stolen away and chained to the pigsty, but the prodigal son held himself in the pigsty until he came to his senses.



The payment of Christ’s tortured, humiliated and murdered experience is to the individual sinner and it is up to him/her to accept or reject the payment.



The “value/ benefit” is only realized by the believer in that this is what the unbeliever has caused Christ to go through and it is purely his individual responsibility that Christ went through this torture and murder. He the individual could have provided “another way” if he had just not sinned and fulfilled his objective without sinning (God could have known a person way in the future fulfilled the objective without sinning (mean there was another way).



Realize what I cause cuts to the heart (is the worst feeling I could have and I am reminded of that feeling and almost repeated at every Lord’s Support, like those in Acts 2:27). The only think that keeps me from collapsing every time I think about what I caused is the fact there is also being shown the greatest Love possible at this same time. I have been forgiven of causing Christ to be crucified, which has to be the greatest offence I could do.

Realizing how much I have personally been forgiven of compels me to Love much.



For me to Love much, I have to be forgiven much and like those on Pentecost, being forgiven of crucifying the Messiah is an unbelievable much to be forgiven of.



Paul seems to convey this idea with Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ…”, Paul is not saying Christ took my place in His crucifixion, but says he has been crucified with Christ. While Christ was being crucified I would think out of a strong empathy for Christ God the Father was being crucified with Christ and would have experienced even great pain and sorrow. As our Love for Christ grows will we not experience a greater empathy for what Christ went through?



If a child correctly experiences Loving discipline than that child will have a much closer stronger relationship with the Loving disciplining father afterwards.



This explains the part faith plays in atonement, since the atonement sacrifice is not accepted by the nonbeliever and thus is not disciplined by it.



The sacrifice is made to God since God sees its need for man and thus out of Love for man the wills Christ freely go to the cross, but it is a gift to man to help man with his/her objective of obtaining Godly type Love.
 
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bling

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No. It is sad that people deny the biblical doctrine of PSA, which is the very heart of the gospel. There is really no gospel without it.
Atonement is a huge topic with many conflicting “theories” with no good answer.

I had to develop my own understanding, since I could not find anything that did not contradict God, His Love, mercy, justice and God being our Father.



The most popular explanation of atonement seems to be penal substitution (PS), but there are lots of issues:



PS is not fair or just by human standards even if the innocent is willing, so why would God in scripture and Jesus in behavior give us a different standard and say His is perfect?

PS makes God out to have the problem needing something in order to forgive people.

PS has God responsible/cause for the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ.

PS loses all the benefit that comes from disciplining/punishing the guilty



If God is Love, how could God have a problem forgiving people? The reason given for “penal substitution” is God cannot forgive us without Jesus being our substitute, but that makes God out to having a problem, lacking in Love someway, and being almost blood thirsty.

It also does not explain how something 100% forgiven has to also be 100% paid for since that is not the way things work. If the debt were paid in full there would be no need for forgiveness and if the debt is forgiven payment is not needed.

Also, if Penal substitution is what happened with the cross why did Peter not mention it in his excellent “Christ Crucified” sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2).

What is the relationship between “forgiveness” and punishment of the individual for a transgression? (most theories of atonement like to talk about “sin” needing punishment yet sin cannot be “punished”, only people can be punished.)

Would the perfect parent (the one you would like to be and be like God) see to the punishment or discipline of his/her children in order to have the Love to forgive those children?

The best parent does not “punish” (discipline) their children in order for the parent to have the love to forgive, they punish (discipline with time out or something) their children for the benefit that discipline provides?

God does not have a “problem” forgiving us, but we need to be disciplined somehow in order to obtain the benefits from being disciplined. So God somehow need to see to our discipline for our transgressions without killing us and yet be fair, just and show us His concern/Love.

What are the “benefits” to being fairly (disciplined) for our transgressions?

Answers:

Deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.



Just as the father wanted his sons to be like himself in the prodigal son story, God wants us to choose to humbly accept His Love and become like He is. The only initial way for humans to obtain Godly type Love is as a free gift automatically “...He that is forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)”. That Love can later grow with use, but cannot be developed independently or instinctively possessed by the individual. Thus, the need for sin and likely alternatives on earth (the perceived pleasures of sin).



God the Father is doing everything God can do to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective which includes (at great personal cost to God) the allowing a willing Christ to go to the cross.

Christ is not trying to “pay off the debt created by our sins” since our sins created an impossible debt to pay. That “debt” cannot be paid (it is totally irreconcilable) but it can be “forgiven”. God’s Love can allow Him to forgive our huge debt without Christ going to the cross. Christ is not trying to make “restitution” for us (that is not possible), but is providing a way for us as children to be disciplined (disciplining is not bringing about restitution) so the disciplining does not have to equal the “restitution” or hell for those that refuse the disciplining in this life. Discipline is not punishment although in scripture negative discipline is often translated punishment.



The analogy of a ransoming is an excellent fit to what is happening Christ uses it, , Paul, John, Peter and the author of Hebrews all use it, but that does not mean the Ransom theory of atonement is correct for many reasons including God not owing satan anything and God not needing to pay satan to get His children back. We, as sinners, are holding captive in sin ourselves; we are the kidnappers of our own self. When we appeal to an unbeliever to become free, the person holding him back is himself. We do not pray to God to release the individual and we do not perform an exorcism on the individual. The prodigal son was not stolen away and chained to the pigsty, but the prodigal son held himself in the pigsty until he came to his senses.



The payment of Christ’s tortured, humiliated and murdered experience is to the individual sinner and it is up to him/her to accept or reject the payment.



The “value/ benefit” is only realized by the believer in that this is what the unbeliever has caused Christ to go through and it is purely his individual responsibility that Christ went through this torture and murder. He the individual could have provided “another way” if he had just not sinned and fulfilled his objective without sinning (God could have known a person way in the future fulfilled the objective without sinning (mean there was another way).



Realize what I cause cuts to the heart (is the worst feeling I could have and I am reminded of that feeling and almost repeated at every Lord’s Support, like those in Acts 2:27). The only think that keeps me from collapsing every time I think about what I caused is the fact there is also being shown the greatest Love possible at this same time. I have been forgiven of causing Christ to be crucified, which has to be the greatest offence I could do.

Realizing how much I have personally been forgiven of compels me to Love much.



For me to Love much, I have to be forgiven much and like those on Pentecost, being forgiven of crucifying the Messiah is an unbelievable much to be forgiven of.



Paul seems to convey this idea with Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ…”, Paul is not saying Christ took my place in His crucifixion, but says he has been crucified with Christ. While Christ was being crucified I would think out of a strong empathy for Christ God the Father was being crucified with Christ and would have experienced even great pain and sorrow. As our Love for Christ grows will we not experience a greater empathy for what Christ went through?



If a child correctly experiences Loving discipline than that child will have a much closer stronger relationship with the Loving disciplining father afterwards.



This explains the part faith plays in atonement, since the atonement sacrifice is not accepted by the nonbeliever and thus is not disciplined by it.



The sacrifice is made to God since God sees its need for man and thus out of Love for man the wills Christ freely go to the cross, but it is a gift to man to help man with his/her objective of obtaining Godly type Love.
 
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Tutorman

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By now, I assume you realize that penal substitutionary atonement theory has no truck with the Catholic Church.

I do not even believe in the penal substitutionary atonement theory of the atonement but rather the Recapitulation theory of atonement
 
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thecolorsblend

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I do not even believe in the penal substitutionary atonement theory of the atonement but rather the Recapitulation theory of atonement
It's been ages since I studied recapitulation but my memory of it is that it's fairly legit... and certainly a better Christological system than penal substitutionary atonement ever came close to being.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Yes not with the Roman Catholic Church. It's very sad.
I'm not aware of any Eastern Catholic Churches who buy into it either. It's not just the Roman Catholics.
 
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Afra

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No. It is sad that people deny the biblical doctrine of PSA, which is the very heart of the gospel. There is really no gospel without it.
No, PSA is not biblical and it is not at the heart of the gospel.
 
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