Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

[mark kennedy]

Well, since you asked, I suppose those works are: to do the will of God, as His will pertains to you.

Of course it pertains to the will of God, no question. We know something about the will of God, the royal law for instance James 2:8, John 13:34. So how is the grace of God 'infused' into the life of the believer? Do we have to give the fruit of our loins for the sin of our soul? Micah 6:7. James suggested Abraham was justified by a willingness to do so.

 

[mark kennedy]

As exactly stated in the Word of God: "through the hearing of faith".

It never fails, Christians always agree on that point. Now as to the works of righteousness that are manfest that fulfill the promise, what would they include? What is the Orthodox understanding, infused or imputed?

 

[Afra]

I presented the Biblical Gospel. Christ died for our sins taking upon himself what was due us.

9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Look above again. I answered your question. Innocent just Jesus paid the penalty for the unjust.

You asked if it was just for an innocent man to be punished. I answered you by demonstrating that is what actually happened. There is no escaping the innocent Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. By doing so an innocent man did indeed die for the unjust.

The death was the penalty due us all as the wages of sin is death. And by rising from the dead He conquered death so that we too may have life.

It was clear as a bell and everyone one of my statements came from Holy Scriptures. I did not quote the verses or passages given we are all adults on a Christian forum and know them.

But after church and following church activities today I will provide the Scriptures. Or better yet one could read the epistles themselves to seek the truth.

Good day.

You cannot even say "Yes, it is just to punish an innocent man" or "No, it is not just to punish an innocent man."

You did not answer the question. And we both know why.

 

[mark kennedy]

Good day.

You cannot even say "Yes, it is just to punish an innocent man" or "No, it is not just to punish an innocent man."

You did not answer the question. And we both know why.

Actually he did, he said thats exactly what happened. Did you not read whay you quoted while you were asking your question in circles?

 

[Afra]

Actually he did, he said thats exactly what happened. Did you not read whay you quoted while you were asking your question in circles?

I did not ask him whether an innnocent man was punished. I asked him whether it is just to punish an innocent man. These are different questions, and you know it.

 

[mark kennedy]

I did not ask him whether an innnocent man was punished. I asked him whether it is just to punish an innocent man. These are different questions, and you know it.

No, its the same question so in addition to circular logic yor now begging the question of proof on your hands and knees. Finally the inevitable ad hominem which is the last resort of fallacious logic. The proof text, one among many, 1 Peter 3:18, and another Isaiah 53:4-5. Do you need others?

 

[redleghunter]

"Grace" is the short answer I was looking for.
Now, what... is... grace?

The Grace of God is unmerited favor.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5485.htm

 

[redleghunter]

Good day.

You cannot even say "Yes, it is just to punish an innocent man" or "No, it is not just to punish an innocent man."

You did not answer the question. And we both know why.

I answered the question 4 times.

A just Man died for guilty sinners.

You say this is unjust but that is what actually happened.

Now was the will of The Father that His innocent and just Son die for unjust sinners?

 

[redleghunter]

I did not ask him whether an innnocent man was punished. I asked him whether it is just to punish an innocent man. These are different questions, and you know it.

Yet a Just Man the Divine Logos truly God and truly human did receive the death penalty for unjust sinners.

Maybe we should start from scratch.

Did Jesus die for our sins?

 

[redleghunter]

"Grace" is the short answer I was looking for.
Now, what... is... grace?

I answered the above. What I want to add is did you take special attention to Ephesians 2:10?

 

[Afra]

No, its the same question so in addition to circular logic yor now begging the question of proof on your hands and knees. Finally the inevitable ad hominem which is the last resort of fallacious logic. The proof text, one among many, 1 Peter 3:18, and another Isaiah 53:4-5. Do you need others?

No.

These are two different questions.

1) Is it just to punish an innocent man?
2) Did an innocent man receive punishment?

And I am not begging for anything on my hands and knees. Please do not insult me.

 

[Afra]

I answered the question 4 times.

A just Man died for guilty sinners

Yes, I agree. And no, you did not answer the actual question I asked you one single time.

You say this is unjust but that is what actually happened.

No, I did not state that it was unjust for our Lord to die for guilty sinners. I stated that it is unjust to punish a guilty man.

You keep trying to make the questions the same, so as to avoid answering the actual question that I asked you. Is it so difficult to type 3 letters "Yes" or 2 letters "No"?

Now was the will of The Father that His innocent and just Son die for unjust sinners?

Yes. God the Father permitted our Lord to die on our behalf, so that was within his will.

Yet a Just Man the Divine Logos truly God and truly human did receive the death penalty for unjust sinners.

Maybe we should start from scratch.

Did Jesus die for our sins?

Yes, our Lord died for our sins.

Do you see how easy it is to answer a question? Start by tying the word "Yes," or the word "No." Then you can give whatever explanation you like in addition to your answer.

You still not have given an answer to the actual question I asked you. You have given answers to many related and similar questions, but not the question I asked you.

My question this. Is it just to punish an innocent man? There are two possible answers to this question:

1) No, it is not just to punish an innocent man.
2) Yes, it is just to punish an innocent man.

What is your answer? Your answer should contain a "Yes" or a "No." If you cannot include a "Yes," or a "No" in your answer, have a nice day.

 

[Afra]

Yet a Just Man the Divine Logos truly God and truly human did receive the death penalty for unjust sinners.

Maybe we should start from scratch.

Did Jesus die for our sins?

Let me ask you the question in a much more simple way.

Is this statement true or false?
1) It is just to punish an innocent man.

Is this statement true or false?
2) It is unjust to punish an innocent man.

Is each statement true, or false?

Let's see you come up with a way to evade answering these questions.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, I agree. And no, you did not answer the actual question I asked you one single time.


No, I did not state that it was unjust for our Lord to die for guilty sinners.


Yes. God the Father permitted our Lord to die on our behalf, so that was within his will.

Yes, our Lord died for our sins.

Do you see how easy it is to answer a question. Start by tying the word "Yes," or the word "No." Then you can give whatever explanation you like in addition to your answer.

You still not have given an answer to the actual question I asked you. You have given answers to many related and similar questions, but not the question I asked you.

My question this. Is it just to punish an innocent man? There are two possible answers to this question:

1) No, it is not just to punish an innocent man.
2) Yes, it is just to punish an innocent man.

What is your answer? Your answer should contain a "Yes" or a "No." If you cannot include a "Yes," or a "No" in your answer, have a nice day.

False dichotomy as you apply human jurisprudence in contrast to what was the actual divine will of the Father.


1 Peter 3:

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Why can’t you work with the facts?

Or are you referring to the ex lex/sub lego debate?

 

[redleghunter]

Let me ask you the question in a much more simple way.

Is this statement true or false?
1) It is just to punish an innocent man.

Is this statement true or false?
2) It is unjust to punish an innocent man.

Is each statement true, or false?

Let's see you come up with a way to evade answering these questions.

Lol the continued false dichotomy.

We are speaking of God’s will and the Gospel. Not human jurisprudence.

Is this statement true or false?
1) It is just to punish an innocent man.

Ex lex or sub lego?

Is this statement true or false?
2) It is unjust to punish an innocent man.

Yet an innocent man did get punished for the guilty parties. Because the wages, consequences of, penalty of sin is death.

What’s going on here is you yourself need to come to some sort of peace with the will of the Father.

So let’s discuss what actually happened and find out why you are skirting the reason Jesus died for guilty sinners.

 

[mark kennedy]

I did not ask him whether an innnocent man was punished. I asked him whether it is just to punish an innocent man. These are different questions, and you know it.

No they are not.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

No.

These are two different questions.

1) Is it just to punish an innocent man?
2) Did an innocent man receive punishment?

And I am not begging for anything on my hands and knees. Please do not insult me.

Yes, it is indeed unjust to punish an innocent man.

It is also unjust to place the sins of guilty man on an innocent man.

Unless the innocent man agrees to take the blame and be punished for the guilty.

Do you disagree?

It is not even just for the guilty not be punished.

And on the cross, the Lord was not only making atonement as in shedding innocent blood as far as His own life was concerned, but had our sins placed upon Him, being the anti-type to the OT scapegoat:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:21-22)

That goat was not to come back, for it was (symbolically here) laden with sin, though actually not guilty of any. Likewise,

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I suppose you want to argue that the above does not mean Christ was punished for our sins, taking stripes in our stead, but only suffered for our sins, but if that was sufficient then why would the Lord lay all our sins upon Him, bearing them in His own body, and suffer as one who was guilty? Do you deny that he did?

Note also that I do not hold that a person must understand the differences here to be saved, only that Christ, the sinless Son of God died for our sins and rose again as savior and future judge. But it becomes an issue in the light of Catholic justification and the need to actually become good enough to enter Heaven.

 

[truefiction1]

The Grace of God is unmerited favor.

Strong's Greek: 5485. χάρις (charis) -- grace, kindness

Used as a noun, then perhaps it is. But grace is far more than "unmerited favor" in the Life in Christ: Grace is Living, uncreated Energy flowing forth from the Divine Nature of God.

 

[truefiction1]

It never fails, Christians always agree on that point. Now as to the works of righteousness that are manfest that fulfill the promise, what would they include? What is the Orthodox understanding, infused or imputed?

I could answer, but I've yet another question to ask first: Is a soul ever justified if/when the Holy Spirit is not residing in it?

 

[redleghunter]

Used as a noun, then perhaps it is. But grace is far more than "unmerited favor" in the Life in Christ: Grace is Living, uncreated Energy flowing forth from the Divine Nature of God.

And may the Grace and Peace of Christ be upon you.

That really meant the fullness of Christ.