How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...? Discussion...?

[Neogaia777]

Why doesn't gravity take over...?

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

If it was or is coming from an explosion, we must not be seeing very much of the explosion, otherwise we should be able to tell that it is/was and explosion... And if it was an explosion, and were not seeing very much of it, the universe must be very large indeed, spanning maybe hundreds or trillions of miles or possibly even more, and if it's that large, even if it did come from a single explosion, it would be much older, much, much, much older than just 13.8 billion years I would think...

God Bless!

One might think of 13.8 billion years as a long time. I was tempted to think so, but such a period of time does put some limits upon what scientists can postulate about the universe.

Prior to the discoveries of the mid 1900's, a popular theory for the existence of the universe was the steady-state model, which, essentially, posited no beginning or end for the universe.

This position gave plenty of time for evolution by way of random mutation and perhaps, even abiogenesis (i.e. the origin of life).

An age for the universe of only 13.8 billion years so significantly cuts into the time available for random development that some other answer is currently being sought.

 

[Neogaia777]

One might think of 13.8 billion years as a long time. I was tempted to think so, but such a period of time does put some limits upon what scientists can postulate about the universe.

Prior to the discoveries of the mid 1900's, a popular theory for the existence of the universe was the steady-state model, which, essentially, posited no beginning or end for the universe.

This position gave plenty of time for evolution by way of random mutation and perhaps, even abiogenesis (i.e. the origin of life).

An age for the universe of only 13.8 billion years so significantly cuts into the time available for random development that some other answer is currently being sought.

Is the steady state model anything like the universe starting out as space time already laid out and the universe was in a "static (steady, stable, dead, laid out) state", then something happened to set it all in motion...

I saw a show where Stephen Hawking was showing how; he took a gym and laid a bunch of steel ball bearings on the floor, all evenly and squarely spaced off from one another, and, nothing was happening, none of it was moving or in motion, cause it was in steady, stable (dead) static state, but then he removed five of the hundreds of ball bearings, and something began happening, they started to move, and proceeded into a crescendo and gravitational dance that, in the universe, produced energy and light, but in our example the model looked exactly like, and was acting very, very much like, what we see in the universe, and very much like our current largest pictures of the universe look like...

The model fails to display the expansion and acceleration going on or the force(s) pushing outward (the dark areas) on everything else, so, in the model, the ball bearings, eventually gravity took over due to no force expanding it at maybe a rate that would equally counteract and balance the force that would cause everything to all gravitate in on itself...

Anyway, it was very interesting...

God Bless!

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Is the steady state model anything like the universe starting out as space time already laid out and the universe was in a "static (steady, stable, dead, laid out) state", then something happened to set it all in motion...

I saw a show where Stephen Hawking was showing how; he took a gym and laid a bunch of steel ball bearings on the floor, all evenly and squarely spaced off from one another, and, nothing was happening, none of it was moving or in motion, cause it was in steady, stable (dead) static state, but then he removed five of the hundreds of ball bearings, and something began happening, they started to move, and proceeded into a crescendo and gravitational dance that, in the universe, produced energy and light, but in our example the model looked exactly like, and was acting very, very much like, what we see in the universe, and very much like our current largest pictures of the universe look like...

The model fails to display the expansion and acceleration going on or the force(s) pushing outward (the dark areas) on everything else, so, in the model, the ball bearings, eventually gravity took over due to no force expanding it at maybe a rate that would equally counteract and balance the force that would cause everything to all gravitate in on itself...

Anyway, it was very interesting...

God Bless!

But that’s just it, they present it as if there are only two possibilities when this isn’t true.

Just as we observe locally there are things moving towards us and things moving away from us.

A static universe is not static in the sense of no motion. Take for example static electricity. Staticness has nothing to do with it, it is the separation of charges, which requires motion....

So they try to imply static means no motion at all, which would not be the case. It would just mean every object has its own peculiar motion relative to every other object, neither everything expanding away from one another nor collapsing into one mass.

Objects may move away from one another or towards one another or with one another, not no motion at all.

 

[A_Thinker]

Is the steady state model anything like the universe starting out as space time already laid out and the universe was in a "static (steady, stable, dead, laid out) state", then something happened to set it all in motion...

From Wiki ...

Steady state model

In cosmology, the steady state model is an alternative to the Big Bang theory of the evolution of our universe. In the steady state model, the density of matter in the expanding universe remains unchanged due to a continuous creation of matter, thus adhering to the perfect cosmological principle, a principle that asserts that the observable universe is basically the same at any time as well as at any place.

While the steady state model enjoyed some popularity in the mid-20th century (though less popularity than the Big Bang theory), it is now rejected by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers, as the observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady state model does not predict.

Cosmological expansion was originally discovered through observations by Edwin Hubble. Theoretical calculations also showed that the static universe as modeled by Einstein (1917) was unstable and contradicted general relativity. The modern Big Bang theory is one in which the universe has a finite age and has evolved over time through cooling, expansion, and the formation of structures through gravitational collapse.

The steady state model asserts that although the universe is expanding, it nevertheless does not change its appearance over time (the perfect cosmological principle); the universe has no beginning and no end. This requires that matter be continually created in order to keep the universe's density from decreasing. Influential papers on steady state cosmologies were published by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle in 1948.

It is now known that Albert Einstein considered a steady state model of the expanding universe, as indicated in a 1931 manuscript, many years before Hoyle, Bondi and Gold. However, he quickly abandoned the idea.

 

[A_Thinker]

But that’s just it, they present it as if there are only two possibilities when this isn’t true.

Just as we observe locally there are things moving towards us and things moving away from us.

What things are moving (in an ultimate sense) TOWARD US ?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Why doesn't gravity take over...?

God Bless!

Because it’s the weakest force in the universe and is only secondary to the electromagnetic force with is 10 billion, billion, billion, billion, billion times stronger and actually dominates in the universe.

And that’s why they are surprised every time they look and require 95% Fairie Dust. They keep trying to use the weakest force as the dominating force... in a universe 99.9% plasma to top it off.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

What things are moving (in an ultimate sense) TOWARD US ?

Many galaxies including the Adromeda galaxy.

They just refused to let redshift die as technology advanced and added expanding nothing to save it.

Cosmological redshift has nothing to do with expansion.

A New Non-Doppler Redshift

 

[Neogaia777]

It's hard to think of everything as pushing out equally on everything (else) in the universe but that is exactly what is happening, and that is causing the expansion and is why the expansion is accelerating, because of everything pushing out equally on everything (else) from the dark pockets in the universe... It is not some center or central force that is doing anything in the universe, but is because everything is pushing out equally on everything and is expanding and growing...

So, you can say that space is expanding equally everywhere the same, from wherever you are in it... And from wherever you are in it, it will appear to expanding and accelerating always from you as the center, but, it's not, the whole concept of a center I think might be an illusion, THERE IS NO CENTER, not that we can determine or tell for sure yet anyway, and the universe is not behaving as if it is coming from a definable center...

And it will always appear that stuff farther away from you is moving away from you faster, or is moving faster, and that's because is, relatively speaking and from your position, and it would be the same for them looking at us from there position as well, and who, or what, is really in motion, anything? everything? nothing?

And, so, where is the center...? Maybe there isn't one maybe...? Maybe it's everywhere and nowhere or something like that maybe...? Who knows...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Anyone...?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

It's hard to think of everything as pushing out equally on everything (else) in the universe but that is exactly what is happening, and that is causing the expansion and is why the expansion is accelerating, because of everything pushing out equally on everything (else) from the dark pockets in the universe... It is not some center or central force that is doing anything in the universe, but is because everything is pushing out equally on everything and is expanding and growing...

So, you can say that space is expanding equally everywhere the same, from wherever you are in it... And from wherever you are in it, it will appear to expanding and accelerating always from you as the center, but, it's not, the whole concept of a center I think might be an illusion, THERE IS NO CENTER, not that we can determine or tell for sure yet anyway, and the universe is not behaving as if it is coming from a definable center...

And it will always appear that stuff farther away from you is moving away from you faster, or is moving faster, and that's because is, relatively speaking and from your position, and it would be the same for them looking at us from there position as well, and who, or what, is really in motion, anything? everything? nothing?

And, so, where is the center...? Maybe there isn't one maybe...? Maybe it's everywhere and nowhere or something like that maybe...? Who knows...?

God Bless!

You can't say that at all.

Only beyond the local Virgo cluster is expansion said to be happening. Local observations falsify expansion theory that everything is expanding.....

Is the Local Group expanding along with the entire Universe? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

"Our nearest galactic neighbors, namely the Local Group, consists mainly of our galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy, the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds as well as about 30 small galaxies within ~1-2 Mpc from us. The two largest galaxies, the Milky Way and the Andromeda, are moving towards each other at about 119 km/s instead of expanding along with the rest of the universe because the gravitational attraction between the two is stronger. In fact, the entire Local Group is collapsing under the gravitational attraction, and in about 3 billion years, the Milky Way and Andromeda will collide! Ahhhh!"

In fact, everything local is heading towards anothe cluster...

"On a larger scale, the Local Group is moving towards the Local Supercluster at about 600 km/s, but it doesn't head straight for the center of the Local Supercluster as expected. Astronomers think that this is because of a large cluster of galaxies beyond the Local Supercluster that we call the "Great Attractor." Though its position and structure isn't known exactly, its existence is inferred from how the Local Group is moving towards the Local Supercluster."

So there goes the belief that expansion is happening everywhere......

But notice they just ignored Relativity which says it is impossible to know if you are the one moving, or if the other object is. It is just as likely that they are all moving towards us, since this claimed great attractor is hidden behind our dense milky-way....

You are still ignoring what cosmological redshift actually is, which produces the same constant wavelength shift as expansion would....

A New Non-Doppler Redshift

 

[Neogaia777]

You can't say that at all.

Only beyond the local Virgo cluster is expansion said to be happening. Local observations falsify expansion theory that everything is expanding.....

Is the Local Group expanding along with the entire Universe? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

"Our nearest galactic neighbors, namely the Local Group, consists mainly of our galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy, the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds as well as about 30 small galaxies within ~1-2 Mpc from us. The two largest galaxies, the Milky Way and the Andromeda, are moving towards each other at about 119 km/s instead of expanding along with the rest of the universe because the gravitational attraction between the two is stronger. In fact, the entire Local Group is collapsing under the gravitational attraction, and in about 3 billion years, the Milky Way and Andromeda will collide! Ahhhh!"

In fact, everything local is heading towards anothe cluster...

"On a larger scale, the Local Group is moving towards the Local Supercluster at about 600 km/s, but it doesn't head straight for the center of the Local Supercluster as expected. Astronomers think that this is because of a large cluster of galaxies beyond the Local Supercluster that we call the "Great Attractor." Though its position and structure isn't known exactly, its existence is inferred from how the Local Group is moving towards the Local Supercluster."

So there goes the belief that expansion is happening everywhere......

But notice they just ignored Relativity which says it is impossible to know if you are the one moving, or if the other object is. It is just as likely that they are all moving towards us, since this claimed great attractor is hidden behind our dense milky-way....

You are still ignoring what cosmological redshift actually is, which produces the same constant wavelength shift as expansion would....

A New Non-Doppler Redshift

You don't understand, in a picture of the universe, the normal matter (stuff/"us") is moving toward, to around, ect, other things made of normal matter like itself, mostly dictated by gravity, but all this is happening within a sting or cluster of "normal matter"... In a picture of the universe, stuff is happening pretty normally and as expected for the most part "within" those stings and clusters....

I am talking about an even "larger scale" then you are talking about, the clusters and strings are clusters and strings because of these dark pockets that on the "universal scale" are all pushing out and causing expansion of the all clusters and strings, (that is accelerating) but within the clusters and strings is a different story...

God Bless!

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You don't understand, in a picture of the universe, the normal matter (stuff/"us") is moving toward, to around, ect, other things made of normal matter like itself, mostly dictated by gravity, but all this is happening within a sting or cluster of "normal matter"... In a picture of the universe, stuff is happening pretty normally and as expected for the most part "within" those stings and clusters....

I am talking about an even "larger scale" then you are talking about, the clusters and strings are clusters and strings because of these dark pockets that on the "universal scale" are all pushing out and causing expansion of the all clusters and strings, (that is accelerating) but within the clusters and strings is a different story...

God Bless!

Mostly dictated by gravity????? Outside of the solar system they had to rescue gravity by adding 95% ad-hoc Fairie Dust.....

What expansion?????

I keep telling you you are misinterpreting what cosmological redshift really is....

A New Non-Doppler Redshift

Do away with that magical expanding nothing and you won't have the problem of trying to ignore everything near us is mo0ving towards one another while having to try to claim everything is expanding away from everything....

 

[mindlight]

Simple question(s):

How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...?

Discussion...?

God Bless!

Well there is the honest answer and then there is a guess based on inference.

The fact is we do not know and indeed without Divine help probably cannot know based on scientific evidence alone.

 

[tas8831]

The fact is we do not know and indeed without Divine help probably cannot know based on scientific evidence alone.

In what form would this Divine help come in?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

In what form would this Divine help come in?

Hopefully people realizing 95% of their cosmology is unknown and then maybe they’ll stop pretending they understand it all.

Maybe then they won’t be surprised to find mature fully formed spiral galaxies in the earliest universe when supposedly stars were just starting to form....

With Divine help maybe they’ll come to realize their models are flawed.... not just their models of galaxy formation, but the bedrock on which they were based, origin.

Don’t hold out much hope, but now and then they give up fantasy for reality and reject the pseudoscience.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Problems such as the antimatter problem.

The matter-antimatter asymmetry problem | CERN

They talk about trying to find a solution, but as stated they already know the answer, just don’t want to accept it.

“Some unknown entity intervening in this process in the early universe could have caused these "oscillating" particles to decay as matter more often than they decayed as antimatter.”

I agree that to them some unknown entity intervened..... well, the entity is known, just not admitted to.

 

[mindlight]

In what form would this Divine help come in?

Scripture provides a base level of awareness. A face to face to face question and answer session with the Creator Himself is probably the best way and will probably have to wait for the New Age to come.

 

[tas8831]

Hopefully people realizing 95% of their cosmology is unknown and then maybe they’ll stop pretending they understand it all.

It is claimed that "Divine help" is required to understand things like this, I asked what form it will take. And you pontificate about how cosmology is 95% unknown and imply that I indicated I understand it all.

Looks more like some projection on your part - for I am not the one that pretends expertise on cosmology, physics, biology, genetics, etc., despite being some kind of computer tech.

Maybe then they won’t be surprised to find mature fully formed spiral galaxies in the earliest universe when supposedly stars were just starting to form....

With Divine help maybe they’ll come to realize their models are flawed.... not just their models of galaxy formation, but the bedrock on which they were based, origin.

Don’t hold out much hope, but now and then they give up fantasy for reality and reject the pseudoscience.

So, you cannot provide any sort of answer, no evidence for this phony 'Divine help'.

IOW - you are just posing/trolling on yet another topic.

 

[tas8831]

Scripture provides a base level of awareness. A face to face to face question and answer session with the Creator Himself is probably the best way and will probably have to wait for the New Age to come.

So, there will never be Divine help - got it.