How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...? Discussion...?

[lesliedellow]

we cannot see any evidence yet of a big bang yet,

You never will, because the early universe was opaque to light.

 

[Neogaia777]

You never will, because the early universe was opaque to light.

That's not what I'm talking about... And again, that is "theory"... What if the universe did not originate that way...?

If were seeing enough of a kind of explosion, we should be able to tell and determine a center point or point of origin or be bale to tell it's an explosion or came from a big bang like center... But, we either cannot or do not see that... In fact the more we see, the less it looks like a big bang, or we at least see no evidence of that at all yet and we should by now, and forgive if I've said this multiple times in this thread already, along with other points no one has addressed yet...

What about those points...?

God Bless!

 

[lesliedellow]

That's not what I'm talking about... And again, that is "theory"... What if the universe did not originate that way...?

If were seeing enough of a kind of explosion, we should be able to tell and determine a center point or point of origin or be bale to tell it's an explosion or came from a big bang like center... But, we either cannot or do not see that... In fact the more we see, the less it looks like a big bang, or we at least see no evidence of that at all yet and we should by now, and forgive if I've said this multiple times in this thread already, along with other points no one has addressed yet...

What about those points...?

God Bless!

The big bang did not occur in space. Everything we now see as space originated with the big bang. The term "big bang" is not particularly helpful, because it suggests a rapidly expanding ball of hot gas. But that is not what is meant. The thing doing the expanding is space.

 

[Neogaia777]

The big bang did not occur in space. Everything we now see as space originated with the big bang. The term "big bang" is not particularly helpful, because it suggests a rapidly expanding ball of hot gas. But that is not what is meant. The thing doing the expanding is space.

And what actual observable evidence of that...?

Much of the observable evidence we have now does not only, not show that in any way, but suggests or points to something else going on...

Why is there no observable center...? Or why doesn't the evidence we have point to that in any way...? And why does it always appear that "we are the center" no matter where we are...? Even as we would move or travel through it...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And what actual observable evidence of that...?

Much of the observable evidence we have now does not only, not show that in any way, but suggests or points to something else going on...

Why is there no observable center...? Or why doesn't the evidence we have point to that in any way...? And why does it always appear that "we are the center" no matter where we are...? Even as we would move or travel through it...?

God Bless!

If you left where you to go to another place in the universe, not only as you traveled, you'd always appear to be the center, but, the place you left when you got to your destination and where you were going, looking back to where you were or came form, if it was far away, would appearing to be moving away from fast, the further away, the faster away from you, with you as the center, same is true of everything else...

Everything is pushing out on everything (else), and equally and with equal force, causing expansion equally, but at an increasing and growing rate.. The balloon with dots on it and being blown up is perhaps the best inadequate, simple example/experiment... Except that the balloon has a center, and your still seeing it expanding from a center, and this is why, one of the reasons why, it is inadequate (picture/example), for this is not true of the universe, and this balloon picture/example, it still has a center, in the universe (it) does not, not that we can tell, and that is not what a real true larger picture of it looks like especially in motion... I'm trying to describe that (picture), but I think I'm coming up short...

God Bless!

 

[lesliedellow]

And what actual observable evidence of that...?

Much of the observable evidence we have now does not only, not show that in any way, but suggests or points to something else going on...

Why is there no observable center...? Or why doesn't the evidence we have point to that in any way...? And why does it always appear that "we are the center" no matter where we are...? Even as we would move or travel through it...?

God Bless!

The analogy which is always used is that of an expanding sphere. If you were a two dimensional creature living on the surface of that sphere, you would see every other point on the surface of that sphere moving away from you, but there would be no centre of expansion.

 

[Neogaia777]

The analogy which is always used is that of an expanding sphere. If you were a two dimensional creature living on the surface of that sphere, you would see every other point on the surface of that sphere moving away from you, but there would be no centre of expansion.

Except we live in three dimensions, and we should be able to see a center or evidence of a center by now, but, we do not... The expansion is not happening from a single center, but it is happening equally everywhere... In all three dimensions (granted there may be more dimensions, but were not talking about that here)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Re-posting...

 

[Zoii]

But, what's beyond that?
M-Bob

Hi Bob
The universe started with a singularity (regardless of whether you're an atheist or a theist believing God created that singularity). Time and space, do not exist outside of a singularity. So a singularity does not occur within a point in space and at a given time, its the other way around

 

[Neogaia777]

None of you get what I am trying to say here in this thread, do you...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If there were an "edge" to the universe, and since the dark pockets are causing the expansion (of the universe, and all the "material" not dark, that is us) (galaxies, the strings and clusters of multiple upon multiple millions or billions of them that are not the dark pockets, but are "normal matter") Anyway, if or since the dark pockets are causing the expansion equally everywhere to counteract and balance out the force(s) of gravity, these dark pockets, as they would reach the edge of the universe, would be like an air bubble in water as it got close to the surface of the water, the bubble, as it gets to the top or the water line (edge of the universe) the water moves around that pocket of air as it reaches the top, and collects back in on itself and around other bubbles that are still in and/or are moving through the water toward the surface (again) (and again) and in this way the universe could be nigh perpetual due to this, the dark pockets pushing out everywhere, and gravity sucking back in everywhere, but is anything really moving at all, since, well, I already talked about that part in my other posts in this thread...

As of now, we do not see and edge, nor can define a discernible "center" to any of it either, which we should be able to do if it has a center and we are anywhere close to it at all, or are seeing very much of the universe at all, as I already tried to explain the how and why, of how or why that is in this thread...

Anyone out there getting what I am talking about...?

Please tell me if you do, or can...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Re-posting...

Anyone...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Re-posting (again)...

God Bless!

 

[lesliedellow]

Re-posting (again)...

God Bless!

There is no edge to the universe. As I said, if it is finite, we are like two dimensional creatures living on the surface of a sphere, except that everything has to be scaled up by one dimension. Since our brains are programmed to think in three dimensions, four dimensions are not particularly easy to visualise, but our limitations tell you nothing about the nature of reality.

 

[Neogaia777]

There is no edge to the universe.

I said "If there were", it would be like, ect, ect...

And I do not see how you or any of us can know that yet, for sure...

As I said, if it is finite, we are like two dimensional creatures living on the surface of a sphere, except that everything has to be scaled up by one dimension. Since our brains are programmed to think in three dimensions, four dimensions are not particularly easy to visualise, but our limitations tell you nothing about the nature of reality.

This does not require thinking in four or more dimensions to understand this, but only the three that we know of, and this should be pretty easy to understand with what we know now... And it/this does not take thinking and/or understanding any other dimensions to understand this at all...

In the three dimensions we know, in all of those dimensions, it is expanding equally everywhere, with two forces, gravity trying to pull everything back in on itself to eventually collect at a center, (except it doesn't due to the expansion caused by these dark areas of the universe that are not normal matter (possibly dark matter) pushing out equally in all directions and on each other and the normal matter and material (us) and everything else (and causing the expansion of space time, or the fabric, or canvas, or the fabric of our universe, ect) and counterbalancing or counteracting the force of gravity in a balanced out way that could be nigh perpetual, and makes one like me wonder not only how old it truly is and/or could be, but it's possible size as well, and not to mention other things, like is anything really even moving or in motion, or is that all only really relative to where you are or are currently "at" in it... And, is there even really, or was there really ever even a center at all (to begin with maybe)...

And "If there were and edge to it", those dark pockets as they reached that edge, would be like air bubbles rising to the surface of water, and the water would be like all the normal matter or material (or us), which, as a bubble reaches the surface the force pulling the water down (like gravity does or tends to do in the universe with normal matter) Anyway, the water, as an air pocket reached the surface, the water would collect and go around it (that air pocket) and would collect and join together with the rest of the water, and around the other air pockets still in the water that have not reached the surface yet and are moving through the water still...

Course we cannot see that yet, I'm just saying if it does or if it would have and edge to it, is all...

Of course the water in the glass example would be moving and rising slightly as the bubbles both expanded and got a bit larger, but slowly as they moved toward the top or surface of the water (or edge of the universe, if it has one) (and just enough to counteract and counterbalance gravity) but as it/they (the dark pockets, bubbles) reached the top, (or surface, or edge), the water on top of the bubble as it (the Bubble/Bubbles) reached the surface (edge) the water (normal matter/us) would go around that bubble and sink back into the glass and join with the rest of the water again, and the water level would go down just slightly, and the bubble/bubbles would pop and/or dissipate as it joined the rest of the air (dark pitch blackness) above it, (or beyond it, or at the top, or edge) and then it would happen again, and again, and again, and again, and again, possibly for an eternity, literally... Which really makes one wonder about the true nature and start of it all (the/this universe) and if maybe that is or has been (so) for an eternity, literally, as well...

And the water level would be raising (or rising) "just slightly" (overall) and lowering "just slightly" (overall), (or at least at the edge) but never really ever overflowing the water in the glass, nor ever really ever making the glass empty or even close to it, nor ever have any less water in it at any time, nor would the water (or normal matter/us) ever be any more or less dense, or really any more or less contracted or expanded at any time, as all these bubbles moved through it and reached the surface of the water... It (the water) (level) might raise just slightly, and lower just slightly, but the glass would never ever overflow or ever be or become empty either or ever even close to it (or ever collect at a center due to gravity) due the counterbalanced and counteracting forces both pushing outward and inward equally or in a very balanced/counterbalanced way...

I hope this is making sense...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is hard to try and "paint a picture" with just words alone... What would be really nice is if I had, not only a picture of the universe (which is in this thread somewhere) but a "moving picture" of it, or it "in motion" (to try and demonstrate this)...? But, I don't, so, I'm hoping that mere words would, or can be sufficient, but I just don't that, or if they are or not...?

God Bless!

 

[lesliedellow]

I said "If there were", it would be like, ect, ect...

And I do not see how you or any of us can know that yet, for sure...



This does not require thinking in four or more dimensions to understand this, but only the three that we know of, and this should be pretty easy to understand with what we know now... And it/this does not take thinking and/or understanding any other dimensions to understand this at all...

In the three dimensions we know, in all of those dimensions, it is expanding equally everywhere, with two forces, gravity trying to pull everything back in on itself to eventually collect at a center, (except it doesn't due to the expansion caused by these dark areas of the universe that are not normal matter (possibly dark matter) pushing out equally in all directions and on each other and the normal matter and material (us) and everything else (and causing the expansion of space time, or the fabric, or canvas, or the fabric of our universe, ect) and counterbalancing or counteracting the force of gravity in a balanced out way that could be nigh perpetual, and makes one like me wonder not only how old it truly is and/or could be, but it's possible size as well, and not to mention other things, like is anything really even moving or in motion, or is that all only really relative to where you are or are currently "at" in it... And, is there even really, or was there really ever even a center at all (to begin with maybe)...

And "If there were and edge to it", those dark pockets as they reached that edge, would be like air bubbles rising to the surface of water, and the water would be like all the normal matter or material (or us), which, as a bubble reaches the surface the force pulling the water down (like gravity does or tends to do in the universe with normal matter) Anyway, the water, as an air pocket reached the surface, the water would collect and go around it (that air pocket) and would collect and join together with the rest of the water, and around the other air pockets still in the water that have not reached the surface yet and are moving through the water still...

Course we cannot see that yet, I'm just saying if it does or if it would have and edge to it, is all...

Of course the water in the glass example would be moving and rising slightly as the bubbles both expanded and got a bit larger, but slowly as they moved toward the top or surface of the water (or edge of the universe, if it has one) (and just enough to counteract and counterbalance gravity) but as it/they (the dark pockets, bubbles) reached the top, (or surface, or edge), the water on top of the bubble as it (the Bubble/Bubbles) reached the surface (edge) the water (normal matter/us) would go around that bubble and sink back into the glass and join with the rest of the water again, and the water level would go down just slightly, and the bubble/bubbles would pop and/or dissipate as it joined the rest of the air (dark pitch blackness) above it, (or beyond it, or at the top, or edge) and then it would happen again, and again, and again, and again, and again, possibly for an eternity, literally... Which really makes one wonder about the true nature and start of it all (the/this universe) and if maybe that is or has been (so) for an eternity, literally, as well...

And the water level would be raising (or rising) "just slightly" (overall) and lowering "just slightly" (overall), but never really ever overflowing the water in the glass, nor ever really ever making the glass empty or even close to it, nor ever have any less water in it at any time, nor would the water (or normal matter/us) ever be any more or less dense, or really any more or less contracted or expanded at any time, as all these bubbles moved through it and reached the surface of the water... It (the water) (level) might raise just slightly, and lower just slightly, but the glass would never ever overflow or ever be or become empty either or ever even close to it (or ever collect at a center due to gravity) due the counterbalanced and counteracting forces both pushing outward and inward equally or in a very balanced/counterbalanced way...

I hope this is making sense...?

God Bless!

At the risk of stating the obvious, we are not two dimensional creatures, so for the analogy to work an extra dimension is required. If the universe has an edge, what would you expect to find there? Border guards? And how would the other side of the border not still be the universe?

 

[Neogaia777]

At the risk of stating the obvious, we are not two dimensional creatures, so for the analogy to work an extra dimension is required.

No, it's not, not for this, and this is very simple...

If the universe has an edge, what would you expect to find there? Border guards?

Are you trying to be funny...?

And how would the other side of the border not still be the universe?

It might be, but it just wouldn't have any "normal matter" beyond that point or edge, just perhaps and extensive extreme blackness or darkness that could go one forever maybe, but no normal matter beyond a certain point...

God Bless!

 

[Jon Osterman]

There could be an edge to the "universe" if you are happy with defining "universe" as the area in which our physical laws are valid. In String Theory, for example, there are lots of possible vacuum states. This means, if String Theory were true, different regions of space would form giant bubbles (technically domains) where one vacuum is dominant, and these bubbles would be separated by domain walls - big walls of energy (the potential energy required to move over the potential bump into the next vacuum minimum). Experiments have looked for these walls and not found any, but that may be because our observable universe is entirely within one bubble, so we can't see the walls.

If there were some non-trivial geometry, where the universe had a curvature and bent around on itself (making it finite) it would still need to be awfully big because current measurements of the curvature tell us that it is very very flat. That means we are detecting no curvature at all over a distance of 93 billion light years!

 

[Neogaia777]

Pic of the known universe around us:

This pic is 93 billion Light years across, 46.5 billion in either direction... The "known", or currently knowable, or seeable, or "observable universe" (right now)... It is "as far as we can see" right now and probably will be for awhile...

See all the dark areas, they are all pushing outward "equally"... The clusters and strings "normal matter" (us)... Now imagine what would happen or try to see what would happen if these dark pockets ever got to or met at an edge to it, with it, or of it (hence my water glass/air Bubble example explained in more detail a couple posts ago)...

Imagine and/or try to see this "in motion" with the dark areas pushing outward and moving outward but all each equally (on everything else and each other) (and "maybe" from a center, or single point of origin, "maybe") (However there is absolutely no way to prove and/or test that, and may never be, for reasons explained earlier in this thread)...

Anyway, Imagine and/or try to see this "in motion" with the dark areas pushing outward and moving outward but all each equally, and gravity in a direct and equal counterbalance or proportion to the other force of gravity trying to make it all collect together and/or gather and/or collapse back in, (on a center possibly), (or "eventually" if it were not for the other force pushing out from the dark areas or pockets)...

The balance of these two forces could make it nigh perpetual and possibly infinite, and makes you really wonder and seriously begin to question the Big Bang Theory and the supposed age of the universe as well...

And, again, it all appears as if "we are the center", but we are not... For from everywhere and anywhere in it, it would "always "look" that way", no matter where you were at or in it (also talked about earlier) due to the equal expansion happening everywhere (also talked about earlier)...

Also, if we were seeing very much of it "at all nearly", at all, (the universe) if we were seeing very much of the whole of it at all, we should be able to see, (if the Big Bang is correct), we should be able to see some kind of "different pattern of dispersal", that would indicate very clearly a single point of origin... Unless we are "just not seeing very much of the whole of it", because then, we would not be able to see that yet... Which would make the universe so huge, that the age of it all must be incorrect, "even if", "even if" it did actually happen from a "big bang", ro whatever, which it may or may not have, and what I'm trying to say is we have absolutely no way of knowing that, and/or especially "proving it" at this point, or at any point possibly (talked about earlier) which would, and does, and should, bring "it all" (a lot of our current theories about it that have been accepted as fact for a long time now) into some serious question and doubt(s)... (as I also tried to explain earlier)...?

This should be simple and easy, but, maybe it is not, IDK...?

God Bless!