Celibacy and Crisis Question for the EO

archer75

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My wife and I just watched a special on sex abuse in the Catholic Church. A Catholic priest who was also a psychologist I believe said the Church is just out of touch, and does not understand sexuality.

Too many centuries of mandatory celibates in charge has to be part of it.
Of course, plenty of priests are not "chaste" in their unmarried state. Plenty of them are sexually active, but they cannot admit to it in public, and cannot develop a way of speaking coherently about sexuality.
 
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Markie Boy

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Yes - mandatory celibacy creates this odd situation. They cave into desire, but then are in sin, and can't talk about it.

I read something recently - and then to my shock my priest mentioned it, and my priest is a super duper company man for the Church. He said he read that at any given time only half of priests are chaste - so the system is totally dysfunctional.

I am really sad, as I could see this long ago, and I think the Church is unable to fix itself at this point.

How did the RCC get so big? It's such a disaster. And from what I can tell, the longer it's separated from the East, the further it strays.
 
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archer75

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Yes - mandatory celibacy creates this odd situation. They cave into desire, but then are in sin, and can't talk about it.

I read something recently - and then to my shock my priest mentioned it, and my priest is a super duper company man for the Church. He said he read that at any given time only half of priests are chaste - so the system is totally dysfunctional.

I am really sad, as I could see this long ago, and I think the Church is unable to fix itself at this point.

How did the RCC get so big? It's such a disaster. And from what I can tell, the longer it's separated from the East, the further it strays.
It got so big in large part by colonizing the New World.
 
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archer75

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I sort of wondered why it's bigger than the EO, as the more I read, the more the EO seem to hold the truer, original faith, in many ways.
Also, the Eastern Empire really got hammered in the second millenium and didn't have the same opportunities for spreading the EO faith.
 
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dzheremi

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How did the RCC get so big? It's such a disaster. And from what I can tell, the longer it's separated from the East, the further it strays.

The rise of Islam, particularly among the Turkic tribes, eventually took from the EO most of their lands, with obviously Constantinople and the capitals of the Eastern provinces like Damascus and Alexandria being harbingers of their subjugation under the new Muslim order.

Constantinople in particular is an interesting (and tragic) case, in that its fall in 1453 was a part of the impetus for increased European exploration of the world, as the rise of the Ottoman Empire led to the closing of important sea and land routes to Europeans. Also the resurgent powers of Spain and Portugal, buoyed by their successes in the Reconquista, began spreading outward at this time, with people like Prince Henry the Navigator attempting to find a way around that would bypass the Muslim-controlled lands in Africa (at the time, they didn't know to what extent those lands stretched, and were working off of things like the "Prester John" legend; eventually the Portuguese would end up bothering the Ethiopians greatly, leading to the banning of the Jesuits from the country and the burning of their literature by Emperor Fasilides in the 17th century).

One can only wonder what might have been had Constantinople not fallen (another thing to 'thank' the Latins for helping along...), but the point is that when you look at the historical forces at work at the beginning of the "European Age of Exploration", you see a very weak and subjugated "Rum", and a rebounding and energized Rome. And so it was Rome and its affiliated kingdoms (the Portuguese and Spanish, mainly...at least in the beginning; the Dutch, English, and other by-then Protestant nations, as well as the French, would get into the act a little bit later) that colonized much of the world.

Who knows, maybe if the Eastern Roman Empire had held together and gotten into the habit of conquest rather than making these kind of 'satellite' cities (e.g., Alexandria), you'd have people today in Mexico and Guatemala and other at least nominally Catholic places -- probably still speaking Mayan and other indigenous languages rather than Spanish, but maybe learning Greek as a language of classical education and status (no different than it was in Egypt or Syria among the ethnic Egyptians and Syrians in earlier centuries) -- worshiping natively as EO people, with no one thinking anything of it.

It's interesting to imagine where Roman Catholicism might be in terms of being a global religion if it had been as restricted in its ability to preach to the outside world as the Christian churches in the Islam-dominated lands have been (and still are, in many cases). I imagine it would still have a hold on places like Malta, Italy, and Poland, due to the cultural identification of people from that background with it (regardless of whether or not they practice it), but sub-Saharan Africa, Asia, and so on? The only parts of Africa to which the Roman Church had ever come not with colonizers were the Latin-speaking churches in North Africa (in today's Algeria and Tunisia, and arguably in Mauretania, which extended into Morocco; not to be confused with Mauritania), which were wiped out by Islam. What other business does Rome have anywhere outside of Europe? They're not the first church of Africa, thank you very much, and as the bishop of Alexandria's role in evangelizing Africa shows (e.g., HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic sending bishops to the Nubian territories like Philae), many of the people Rome would later try to court would've been Christian at some point in their past -- just not of a kind that has any use for Roman Catholicism (whether we're talking about the EO or OO kingdoms in Christian Nubia, since that land had both. while the Latins themselves were something else; there was an analysis of the languages used in Christian epitaphs in Nubia done some years ago by a Polish researcher that showed several hundred in Greek or Coptic -- and many which were a mix of the two -- to something in the single digits to teens in Latin; if I recall correctly, it's in the Nubian Studies journal Dotawo, though I cannot remember the issue).

The same point could be made far away from the Muslim lands, such as in India, where the Portuguese were apparently so terrible in their treatment/'oversight' of the native Christians that it led to things like Nestorians breaking with that church to join the Syriac Orthodox in 1665, which was part of the fallout of the Coonan Cross Oath of 1653, where the native Christians gathered to reinforce their defiance of Latin dominance and denounce those among them who had cooperated with the Latinization/RC-ization of their churches by the Portuguese.

I'm not going to say that wherever Rome goes it messes things up and makes everything worse for people (there was a time, lest we forget, when Rome was fully and completely Orthodox according to both your guys' metric and mine, and that time lasted for several centuries), but I am going to heavily suggest that their history shows this to be the case both in the past in situations like these (accelerating the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, royally ticking off the Christians of an entire subcontinent who had been there since c. 52 AD, when Rome had jurisdiction over jack squat, etc.), and now in the current crises when for whatever reason they just can't stop enabling the rape of thousands of children. Lord have mercy. I don't get it at all, but it is indeed a disaster.
 
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Kalboon

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Which leaves me asking - how is it that all these priests and bishops, for decades or centuries, treated the rape and sexual abuse of children and minors of both sexes as nothing more than a "spill on aisle three" that should be cleaned up before it impedes shopping.

If it happened once, twice, three times, hundreds of times with evidence to the contrary of these hundreds of cases over many many decades being isolated then one would logically conclude it is a widely accepted and regularly practiced pre-requisite of the priestly positions held.

If something is a widely accepted and regularly exercised common practise amongst the priests from the top to the least of them then what would you call it?

Common pre-requisite practise that suggests some form of religious aspect tied to it, since we are shown that it affects the entire religious institution throughout.

Is it a common practise, a religious offering of some sort, maybe a hidden ritual?

We don't know as yet!

I would want the free world to come to the defence of the abused and to profile the abusers and possibly interogate them through legal systems for child protection purposes so that the underlining factors are established and then if it is found that it is a ritual of some sort then the heads of the establishment must be abolished and held accountable, even if they are to serve time behind bars if need be.

The free world must say enough is enough and to remove religious diplomatic type immunity and to confront evil and the source there of in order to destroy it.

The free world has gone into countries and cities to free humanity from evil. It is high time for the free world to enter the gates of Vatican City and to remove anything that is a near and present danger to children.
 
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Kalboon

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I mean, for God's sake, in my own Church we have two monks now arrested in connection to the murder of their own abbot (HG Bishop Epiphanius), which is about as bad as anything ever can be (Lord have mercy!), but that does not somehow magically make the RCCs pattern of horrible child abuse one of our particular problems. It's not any better, either (lest anyone think I'm going there; how can we rank murder vis-a-vis child abuse,

I would be correct in saying murder in your own church is not common practise right?

When observing the RCC multiple violations of children spanning many many decades we are treating it as a serial killer of defenceless children and not mere isolated cases.

Your comparison of an isolated case in your own church as compared to the common practise over many many decades in the RCC throughout its institution is not a fair comparison at all. You are trying to compare an isolated case to a global pandemic that has gone unchecked for many many decades, half century to known record thus far.

The legal system needs to establish whether this common practise is some sort of hidden ritual that requires all priests to participate in. To know for sure Vatican City needs to be put in lock down and searched inch by inch and any evidence and witnesses or potential suspects interogated to establish underlining common facts that will explain if this pandemic is some sort of ritual with children. The free world needs to do this for the sake of protecting children as Jesus would expect the free world to do and to act upon immediately.

This is a pandemic rape murder global incident that has been continually committed over half a century and involving children and so the biggest Cluedo Game needs to be undertaken where the board game needs to start in Vatican City.
 
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dzheremi

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I would be correct in saying murder in your own church is not common practise right?

Incredibly uncommon.

My only point was that there are problems in every community; what matters is how they are dealt with. As you've pointed out, the RCC has a history of sexual abuse against minors, so it is a different situation. Still they need to deal with it directly, in a manner altogether different than what has gone on so far, where it's nothing but abuse after abuse being 'uncovered', and it seems that all the higher-ups can say is "Satan is attacking our church!"

Yes. Yes, that is true. But someone is leaving the door open for him.

The legal system needs to establish whether this common practise is some sort of hidden ritual that requires all priests to participate in.

Such an idea seems outlandish, and would require quite conclusive evidence to establish. I would not imagine that such a thing exists, as it's not as though every Roman Catholic priest is a molester by default. I have been blessed to know a few who were nothing if not fine, upstanding men, who spoke out bravely on the matter with obviously much sorrow and righteous anger. I fear there is a disconnect between these men and whoever is handling the sex abuse scandals on an official level, but at any rate they were never accused nor gave off any hints of being any kind of abusers. Lord have mercy.

To know for sure Vatican City needs to be put in lock down and searched inch by inch and any evidence and witnesses or potential suspects interogated to establish underlining common facts that will explain if this pandemic is some sort of ritual with children. The free world needs to do this for the sake of protecting children as Jesus would expect the free world to do and to act upon immediately.

This is a pandemic rape murder global incident that has been continually committed over half a century and involving children and so the biggest Cluedo Game needs to be undertaken where the board game needs to start in Vatican City.

Eh...I'm personally disinclined to put much stock in the idea of any kind of global conspiracy, but I do agree that this does seem to be a global problem. To me anyway, Occam's razor would probably point us to some serious problems in the theology surrounding the RC priesthood (which is not shared by other churches such as mine or the one that this board is dedicated to), and its anthropological underpinnings (ditto). Perhaps it is time for RC celibacy to go (though since it dates back to at least the beginning of the fourth century via the Synod of Elvira c. 305 AD, I reckon it would be incredibly hard to uproot), but would this fix any of the other problems related to the RC priesthood? Would it help them in forcibly laicizing a bad priest when their own catechism says that this cannot be done?

Obviously not. So the problem is not only administrative or strictly legal, but also theological and anthropological. And that is a much tougher nut to crack, unfortunately.
 
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Kalboon

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Incredibly uncommon.

My only point was that there are problems in every community; what matters is how they are dealt with. As you've pointed out, the RCC has a history of sexual abuse against minors, so it is a different situation. Still they need to deal with it directly, in a manner altogether different than what has gone on so far, where it's nothing but abuse after abuse being 'uncovered', and it seems that all the higher-ups can say is "Satan is attacking our church!"

Yes. Yes, that is true. But someone is leaving the door open for him.



Such an idea seems outlandish, and would require quite conclusive evidence to establish. I would not imagine that such a thing exists, as it's not as though every Roman Catholic priest is a molester by default. I have been blessed to know a few who were nothing if not fine, upstanding men, who spoke out bravely on the matter with obviously much sorrow and righteous anger. I fear there is a disconnect between these men and whoever is handling the sex abuse scandals on an official level, but at any rate they were never accused nor gave off any hints of being any kind of abusers. Lord have mercy.



Eh...I'm personally disinclined to put much stock in the idea of any kind of global conspiracy, but I do agree that this does seem to be a global problem. To me anyway, Occam's razor would probably point us to some serious problems in the theology surrounding the RC priesthood (which is not shared by other churches such as mine or the one that this board is dedicated to), and its anthropological underpinnings (ditto). Perhaps it is time for RC celibacy to go (though since it dates back to at least the beginning of the fourth century via the Synod of Elvira c. 305 AD, I reckon it would be incredibly hard to uproot), but would this fix any of the other problems related to the RC priesthood? Would it help them in forcibly laicizing a bad priest when their own catechism says that this cannot be done?

Obviously not. So the problem is not only administrative or strictly legal, but also theological and anthropological. And that is a much tougher nut to crack, unfortunately.

Let us not sweep things under the carpet. This is a global pandemic and a common practise that has been left unchecked for a half century to known record.

The point is that it needs to be investigated Napoleanic style to the full measure of the global law and this global incident owing to a global institution who is situated in Capitol Line Hill in Vatican City needs to be brought to trial Hague Style (War Crimes against Humanity).

Any crimes against children should be treated as war crimes against humanity and against Jesus Christ and HIS CHURCH.
 
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Kalboon

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Obviously not. So the problem is not only administrative or strictly legal, but also theological and anthropological. And that is a much tougher nut to crack, unfortunately.

They are testifying against themselves when they say the below

seems that all the higher-ups can say is "Satan is attacking our church!"

When they are saying Satan is attacking our Church, I interpret it as them confessing of some sort of offering to Satan, since I believe they are stating facts though we tend to filter the details but the Devil is in the detail.

Yes I believe their confession that it is Satan and it is an offering for him.
 
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~Anastasia~

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They are testifying against themselves when they say the below



When they are saying Satan is attacking our Church, I interpret it as them confessing of some sort of offering to Satan, since I believe they are stating facts though we tend to filter the details but the Devil is in the detail.

Yes I believe their confession that it is Satan and it is an offering for him.
Hello and welcome to CF.

Just a friendly note - these various boards have particular purposes and rules. Perhaps the suggestion of Catholics involving some kind of ritual - abuse - should be taken somewhere like Conspiracy Theories - https://www.christianforums.com/forums/conspiracy-theories.1225/

This is a congregational subforum for the Eastern Orthodox Church, so for several reasons this isn't the best place to have this discussion. You can post a link to your new thread if you like.

But with you being new, I'd much rather help you find the right forum (by the way, most of them have a "Statement of Purpose" stickied to the top listing any rules for that particular area, if you ever wonder - but feel free to ask if you aren't sure or need help :) ).

If this goes too far off topic for this forum it could get the thread shut down, etc. So we would always rather help folks find an appropriate way to discuss so that doesn't happen. :)

Again, welcome to CF. :)
 
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Kalboon

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Hello and welcome to CF.

Just a friendly note - these various boards have particular purposes and rules. Perhaps the suggestion of Catholics involving some kind of ritual - abuse - should be taken somewhere like Conspiracy Theories - https://www.christianforums.com/forums/conspiracy-theories.1225/

This is a congregational subforum for the Eastern Orthodox Church, so for several reasons this isn't the best place to have this discussion. You can post a link to your new thread if you like.

But with you being new, I'd much rather help you find the right forum (by the way, most of them have a "Statement of Purpose" stickied to the top listing any rules for that particular area, if you ever wonder - but feel free to ask if you aren't sure or need help :) ).

If this goes too far off topic for this forum it could get the thread shut down, etc. So we would always rather help folks find an appropriate way to discuss so that doesn't happen. :)

Again, welcome to CF. :)

Thank you.
 
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Paidiske

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If I may - speaking as a moderator - I would suggest that this kind of comment may well be read as an attack on Catholics, or goading or flaming.

I myself don't believe celibacy is the problem (my earlier comments in the thread pointed towards a wider culture of abuse of power), but to accuse fellow-Christians of Satanic rituals as a matter of policy - even just as a possibility to be ruled out - is going somewhere that will be difficult to defend as acceptable.
 
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dzheremi

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Guys, can I remind you all here that the OP was originally intended to be about the Eastern Orthodox Church, and that it was therefore posted on the Eastern Orthodox section of this website?

I'm sorry to have somewhat participated in this myself, OP. I did not mean to drag focus off in any way, only to provide as close to similar an example as I could in order to reinforce the idea that it is right to be cautious in approaching questions like this, as no place you might find yourself is free from the reality of scandal, and hence the possibility of cover up (but again I would imagine that you are safer in the EO Church than the RCC on this front, due to structural and theological differences). Lord have mercy.

Let's please return to the topic now, shall we? :)
 
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Markie Boy

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So all churches have problems, Orthodox included. But it seems my findings are the Orthodox do not share anything like the Catholic plague of sex abuse.

I just am watching Spotlight for the first time, and the psych expert (former priest) says that mandatory celibacy is really tied to the whole issue. He explains how half of the clergy are not celibate anyway so you end up with a perspective that sex is wrong and to be hidden. He calls it a "psychic phenomenon".

Catholics seem in total denial that it could be even part of the problem.
 
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archer75

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So all churches have problems, Orthodox included. But it seems my findings are the Orthodox do not share anything like the Catholic plague of sex abuse.

I just am watching Spotlight for the first time, and the psych expert (former priest) says that mandatory celibacy is really tied to the whole issue. He explains how half of the clergy are not celibate anyway so you end up with a perspective that sex is wrong and to be hidden. He calls it a "psychic phenomenon".

Catholics seem in total denial that it could be even part of the problem.
I'm no expert, and I thought that was an okay movie, but I'd suggest you get a variety of views on the matter.
 
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Markie Boy

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I have actually checked out multiple movies, documentaries, and articles on the crisis - they all seem to point to the same thing.

The Catholic clergy can't fix the problem, because they are the problem.

I'm going to keep listening to Ancient Faith Radio more, as the more I see the issues, the more it appears the East is closer to the original faith, and the West's constant invention of new concepts has become a hard thing to deal with.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think one thing also to consider, and a monk told me this, is celibacy and marriage are callings. so the one that is best is the one that you are called to do, and if you tried to do the other, you will fail (or, at best, suffer a lifetime of a heavy cross). and this monk even said that if he tried marriage, it would not have worked for him because the celibate life is what he is called to do.
 
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