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Evolution is an ancient Creation dogma

DogmaHunter

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Evolutionists claim that a fully terrestrial animal like Pakicetus (50 mya) evolved into a fully aquatic animal like the Basilosaurids (40 mya), which is roughly 10 million years.

I thought you were talking about whales. As in modern whales. Which are quite different from their 40 million year old ancestors.

After all, you DID say "whale". The quote I was responding to, did not mention a 40myo creature. It just said "fully aquatic whale". So I assumed you were talking about modern whales.

You either don't understand the subject matter or you're being purposefully obtuse to confuse readers. Which is it?

Neither. I thought you were talking about getting from a fully terrestrial animal to a modern whale in 10 million years.

This is what evolutionists do when they get backed into a corner. Instead of taking on the central thrust of their opposition's arguments, they throw up a cloud of dust that muddies the issue.

Uhu, uhu.
Thrash talk aside, in this case it was a misunderstanding on what you meant.

It sounds like you're saying 10 million years is an insufficient amount of time for a fully terrestrial -> fully aquatic transformation to take place???

No, that's not what I said at all.

... and that 50 million years is enough time... Why? Does 50 million just *feel* better to you? More space to assuage the imagination?

I don't think I said anything about what is possible or not. Frankly, I wouldn't know either. While I consider that I have a good enough grasp on evolution to be able to understand and explain it in laymen's terms (and to use and develop genetic algoritms while understanding how and why it works), I'm not knowledgeable enough to make judgement calls on that particular topic.

I was just talking about the known facts. As said, I thought you were saying from the terrestrial ancestor to the modern whale in 10 million years. The facts say 50 million.

This is why Evolution is so funny. When it comes to large-scale body-plan changes, it's not based on anything resembling a hard science with rigid parameters describing maximum loads on anatomical change within X time, with regard to the powers of natural selection... This is when Evolution simply turns into imagineering and storytelling.

Every bone in whales is traceable in its fossil ancestors. We can even, through comparable anatomy, trace its equivalents in land animals. And then there's all the genetic data.
You seem to be saying that all this is just guess work. This is off course false.

And by the way, there is evidence (recently discovered jawbone fossil) of fully aquatic Basilosaurids or similar species that may push back your mystical whale transformation to under 5 million years.

Going aquatic doesn't seem that radical a change to me.
It happened lots of times in evolutionary history.

Sounds like your biggest problem is incredulity.

Oh let me guess... suddenly you don't even need the 10 million years that you scoffed at previously. Now the magical natural-selection fairies can do their work in under 5 million, right?

No, I already cleared up this misunderstanding in previous paragraphes.

Don't even worry yourself thinking about this... Remember, you already know it's true because Evolution is a fact!

Evolution, in the sense of common ancestry, is indeed a genetic fact.
Evolution, in the sense of the theory of descent with modification followed by selection, is the model that explains that fact.
 
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lifepsyop

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Every bone in whales is traceable in its fossil ancestors. We can even, through comparable anatomy, trace its equivalents in land animals.

The evolutionary argument from homology is notoriously circular:

The anatomical structures are similar because they are derived from a common ancestor.
And we know they share a common ancestor because of the similarity of the anatomical structures.



And then there's all the genetic data.

The same circular reasoning, but on a molecular level.


You seem to be saying that all this is just guess work.

No, it just all rests on fundamentally mystical/quasi-religious assumption that nature is Evolutionary. (i.e. has god-like creative powers on larger time-scales)

Back in the real-world, nature appears to be cyclic, and ultimately in a state of decay. And natural selection's utility is pretty straightforward... it kills things that change too much from its original configuration.

What you philosophers and Darwinian mystics have done with the natural selection storytelling will truly be viewed as one of the great fumblings in the history of science.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The evolutionary argument from homology is notoriously circular:

The anatomical structures are similar because they are derived from a common ancestor.
And we know they share a common ancestor because of the similarity of the anatomical structures.

If that is how you think the science is done, then no wonder you don't accept it.
Fortunatly, that's not how it is done.

The same circular reasoning, but on a molecular level.

No. Rather, the same methodology used to determine that your dad is your actual biological dad.

No, it just all rests on fundamentally mystical/quasi-religious assumption that nature is Evolutionary.

No. That's something that is concluded from the evidence. It isn't a premise, nore is it an assumption.

(i.e. has god-like creative powers on larger time-scales)

There's nothing "god-like" or "mystical" about mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat.

Back in the real-world, nature appears to be cyclic, and ultimately in a state of decay. And natural selection's utility is pretty straightforward... it kills things that change too much from its original configuration.

No, not from its "original configuration". Rather, in relation to its resulting fitness in context of its habitat. If the habitat changes, so will the selection pressures. To use your wording, if the habitat changes, then the "original configuration" will or might no longer be good enough. What used to be helpfull traits can become obstacles at that point, or vice versa.

What you philosophers and Darwinian mystics have done with the natural selection storytelling will truly be viewed as one of the great fumblings in the history of science.

Keep telling yourself that.
Meanwhile, the idea and concept of natural selection is one of the biggest successes in all of science, with practical applications all over.
 
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tas8831

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Since I am a product of higher natural science institutions,
Why do you persist in writing such fiction?

Are you going to tell us that you know all about molecular biology again, too?
:rolleyes:
 
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tas8831

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The evolutionary argument from homology is notoriously circular:

The anatomical structures are similar because they are derived from a common ancestor.
And we know they share a common ancestor because of the similarity of the anatomical structures.





The same circular reasoning, but on a molecular level.
Not even close.

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."
 
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lifepsyop

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Not even close.
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

Based on the abstracts you pasted, I'm left wondering if you know what homology is.

And it's like evolutionists believe phylogenetics is only possible because of universal common descent.. which makes one wonder if they even understand what phylogenetics is.

There was one paper a few years ago where the writer claimed to be performing a truly independent phylogenetic test demonstrating UCA, and interestingly enough, ended up being called out by other evolutionists.

(ah, found the response paper)

https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-5-64

The common ancestry of life
Koonin, Wolf 2010

Background

It is common belief that all cellular life forms on earth have a common origin. This view is supported by the universality of the genetic code and the universal conservation of multiple genes, particularly those that encode key components of the translation system. A remarkable recent study claims to provide a formal, homology independent test of the Universal Common Ancestry hypothesis by comparing the ability of a common-ancestry model and a multiple-ancestry model to predict sequences of universally conserved proteins.

Results

We devised a computational experiment on a concatenated alignment of universally conserved proteins which shows that the purported demonstration of the universal common ancestry is a trivial consequence of significant sequence similarity between the analyzed proteins. The nature and origin of this similarity are irrelevant for the prediction of "common ancestry" of by the model-comparison approach. Thus, homology (common origin) of the compared proteins remains an inference from sequence similarity rather than an independent property demonstrated by the likelihood analysis.

Conclusion

A formal demonstration of the Universal Common Ancestry hypothesis has not been achieved and is unlikely to be feasible in principle. Nevertheless, the evidence in support of this hypothesis provided by comparative genomics is overwhelming.



What's interesting is if you follow the discussion of this paper (and the paper reviewers' comments), it becomes clear that the strength of the UCA (universal common descent) hypothesis is based on the assumption that such sequence similarity would be impossible via convergent evolution.

In other words, similarity must be a general indicator of evolutionary relation, because such similarity could not have evolved independently, multiple times, by chance.

Get it? On both sides of the coin, they're still assuming Evolution is true.
 
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lifepsyop

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There's nothing "god-like" or "mystical" about mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat.

There's nothing mystical about it when applied to already existing animal populations.

When you suggest "mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat" actually created those animals, then yes, you've firmly entered the realm of mysticism and imagination.

And the fact that evolutionists are unable to (or pretend not to) see the slightest distinction between natural selection as a maintenance role..... and natural selection as some all-powerful force that blindly designs entire animals from scratch over time... I mean... wow... it really can't be emphasized enough the faith you have in this mystical view of nature.

Meanwhile, the idea and concept of natural selection is one of the biggest successes in all of science, with practical applications all over.

I'm reminded of the words of Berlinski here... (paraphrasing)

That the tiger with sharper teeth will have an easier time seizing its prey is so obvious in nature, one wonders why it was felt needed to turn it into a theory.
 
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Aman777

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But all those theists aren't true scottsmen... err, I mean true theists. They obviously follow the wrong religion or denomination. ONLY Aman's fundamentalist space-adam interpretation that nobody else believes is the true and correct religion, didn't you know?

Is that why you run for the tall grass when I try to engage you in actual debate? Of course it is. Did you learn that tactic from your buddy Trump?
 
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Brightmoon

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(Snip)

When you suggest "mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat" actually created those animals, then yes, you've firmly entered the realm of mysticism and imagination.

And the fact that evolutionists are unable to (or pretend not to) see the slightest distinction between natural selection as a maintenance role..... and natural selection as some all-powerful force that blindly designs entire animals from scratch over time... I mean... wow... it really can't be emphasized enough the faith you have in this mystical view of nature.



I'm reminded of the words of Berlinski here... (paraphrasing)

That the tiger with sharper teeth will have an easier time seizing its prey is so obvious in nature, one wonders why it was felt needed to turn it into a theory.
. Berlinski isn’t a a biologist or even a scientist! So his judgement of scientific papers is woefully lacking.
You misunderstanding of natural selection and how it can and does change organisms borders on pitiful
 
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DogmaHunter

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Is that why you run for the tall grass when I try to engage you in actual debate? Of course it is. Did you learn that tactic from your buddy Trump?

1. Trump is not my "buddy". I think Trump is currently one of the biggest threats to human kind in general.

2. I don't "run" from "debates" with you. I just don't engage in obvious nonsense. Sorry, but the things you believe and the space story you fabricated around your religion is mindblowingly stupid and not worthy a single second of thought.
 
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DogmaHunter

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There's nothing mystical about it when applied to already existing animal populations.

Well, it IS kind of hard to apply a process of living things on things that doesn't exist.
I'm smelling a strawmen coming up again.

When you suggest "mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat" actually created those animals, then yes, you've firmly entered the realm of mysticism and imagination.

That's what introduced diversity which eventually leads to speciation.
Evolution doesn't "create" organisms. It rather makes existing organisms speciate into sub-species.

And the fact that evolutionists are unable to (or pretend not to) see the slightest distinction between natural selection as a maintenance role..... and natural selection as some all-powerful force that blindly designs entire animals from scratch over time...

Nobody, except you apparantly, claims that natural selection "creates" things. ANd most definatly not from "scratch".

Off course, if you are not going to bother to at least get the basics right, you're just going to keep missing the point and continue to drown in ignorance.

I mean... wow... it really can't be emphasized enough the faith you have in this mystical view of nature.

I don't require "faith" when I have evidence and the "view" you are describing here, is not the view that I hold but just some strawman instead.

I'm reminded of the words of Berlinski here... (paraphrasing)

That the tiger with sharper teeth will have an easier time seizing its prey is so obvious in nature, one wonders why it was felt needed to turn it into a theory.

And yet apparantly, creationists like you still have trouble understanding it.
 
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Aman777

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Sorry, but the things you believe and the space story you fabricated around your religion is mindblowingly stupid and not worthy a single second of thought.

Thanks for your atheist/heathen opinion. That and $1 will get you a cup of coffee at MickeyDs....in some areas of the country. God Bless you
 
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tas8831

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Based on the abstracts you pasted, I'm left wondering if you know what homology is.
Based on your response (which ignored 100% of what I actually wrote - for none of them mentioned a UCA), I am convinced that you, like most contrarian creationists, are simply swimming in a sea of the Dunning-Kruger effect, all to prop up your failing beliefs.

As you reply did not in any way discuss what I had posted, I see no reason to respond to your dodging.
 
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lifepsyop

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Evolution doesn't "create" organisms. It rather makes existing organisms speciate into sub-species.

*rolling eyes* here we go...

You're tripping all over yourself in your pedantic attempts to score points.

Unless you're arguing the physiological organization of a giraffe bodyplan was always floating out in the aether since time began, then, yes... according to your own worldview, Evolution indeed "created" the giraffe. (create = bring something into existence) .. That organismal organization didn't exist, and then it did.

ANd most definatly not from "scratch"

Oh okay, "create from scratch" isn't reflective of the idea of all of the world's biodiversity coming into existence via primordial reproducing lifeforms? ... My goodness, just own your silly origins beliefs and stop pretending it's being mischaracterized because you don't like a particular language used.

You must really hate the term "natural selection", because after all, nature doesn't ACTUALLY intentionally select something! Lets stop all discussion and whine about that term for awhile instead of dealing with the thrust of anyone's arguments.
 
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pitabread

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Sorry, but the things you believe and the space story you fabricated around your religion is mindblowingly stupid and not worthy a single second of thought.

I dunno. With the right writing, it could be turned into an interesting religious/sci-fi/fantasy story.
 
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Brightmoon

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*rolling eyes* here we go...

You're tripping all over yourself in your pedantic attempts to score points.

Unless you're arguing the physiological organization of a giraffe bodyplan was always floating out in the aether since time began, then, yes... according to your own worldview, Evolution indeed "created" the giraffe. (create = bring something into existence) .. That organismal organization didn't exist, and then it did.



Oh okay, "create from scratch" isn't reflective of the idea of all of the world's biodiversity coming into existence via primordial reproducing lifeforms? ... My goodness, just own your silly origins beliefs and stop pretending it's being mischaracterized because you don't like a particular language used.

You must really hate the term "natural selection", because after all, nature doesn't ACTUALLY intentionally select something! Lets stop all discussion and whine about that term for awhile instead of dealing with the thrust of anyone's arguments.
. You've got some nerve . Tas simply doesn’t want to be on that phony list of scientists who deny evolution. If he uses “create” some creationist is going to take it out of context and make believe he’s denying evolution.
 
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Aman777

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I dunno. With the right writing, it could be turned into an interesting religious/sci-fi/fantasy story.

Amen. It also agrees with every discovery of mankind, history and God's Holy Word. That is WHY no one can refute it. They try, but none succeed since it's God's Truth.
 
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pitabread

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It also agrees with every discovery of mankind, history and God's Holy Word.

Coming up with a story that "agrees" with something doesn't make the story true.

That is WHY no one can refute it.

It would be like trying to refute Star Wars. What would be the point? :scratch:
 
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