Who really goes to Hell?

[Mountainmanbob]

One must be born again.
M-Bob

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

First off, the Bible makes it clear that unforgiven sin is the basis of condemnation at the Final Judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment seen in the 20th chapter of the Book of Revelation). While unbelief is sin (see John 16:9-11) the penalty that will be required of the unbelieving is that they pay for their own sinful acts (which have been recorded). Unbelievers will suffer the desolation of having no one to defend them, as their guilt is laid bare. They will suffer the Second Death (Rev. 20) and it may or may not be eternal death. Jesus seemed to indicate that the bodies and souls of unbelievers will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire (He called it Gehenna in the Aramaic). Jesus used a different word for the temporary "holding cell" where the Rich Man was incarcerated (the Greek text renders it Hades in Luke 16) from Gehenna. Jewish thought was that the "place of torment" is temporary and that it is separated from Paradise (also called the "bosom of Abraham") by a wide gulf (which Jesus elucidates in His telling about the Rich Man). They further believed that there was a gate at the lowest level of "the place of torment" that led to the Lake of Fire. Christian theology has historically taught that those tossed into the Lake of Fire will suffer eternal conscious torment. Some newer thought on it is that the condemned will suffer some period of punishment for their sins and then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Either way, one would think that all humans would want to answer the question of eternal life/death as the most important issue of life in this world. Just as it was a terrible sin for Esau to casually toss aside his birthright for "a mess of pottage" so it is a terrible sin to throw the gracious means of salvation aside. Those who honestly seek Him and His mercy will find it. There have been a number of testimonies from former atheists who came to faith through trying to prove that there is no God. There must have been some part of them which rightly saw the importance of the issue. Romans 8:28-29 applies.

Believers have an Advocate in Christ--He has already paid for their sin and God the Father has said that He will "remember it no more". When one fully appreciates this astounding gift, worship of Him is the inevitable response. Does the Godhead need our worship? No, the Godhead is utterly complete and blessed. However, when we were made, each of us was made with the capacity to worship and if we do not worship Him, we will worship substitutes (money, power, people, ourselves) that can never satisfy. We do not find fulfillment in this life without worshiping Him.

 

[FatalHeart]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

There are plenty of verses that reject your idea of this kind of innocence existing all together. But you are right in that people will accept and follow things just because they were taught it by their parents, and that they think that justifies them. It's mostly called Christianity right now and is the same state of Islam as is any religion that exists. People kill, die for, and malign others simply on the basis of their own culture, but that's culture. The Bible you say you read explains God as someone who is real and active in everyone's lives. Simply because a white man doesn't visit a village doesn't out do a God that convicts and judges people based on the revelation He gives to all. "Men are without excuse."

 

[marineimaging]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

Have you ever heard of the "Circle of Concern, Circle of Influence"? If not, draw a huge circle and inside that one draw a very small circle. In the large circle write everything that you are concerned about. In the really little circle write ONLY those things you can do something about. If you have heard Ravi Zacharias who is an Indian-born Canadian-American Christian apologist speak of some of the concerns you have he will tell you how many people in India know of Jesus Christ, yet have no desire to seek the truth. What I do know this. WE (you and I) have been introduced to Jesus Christ. WE (you and I) have a family to take care of. WE (you and I) have a choice. WE (you and I) are not to worry about the rest of the world except to present ourselves to the world as Christ would have us. Honestly, I wore myself out worrying about the rest of the world and holding my own soul hostage until I realized that what was important was what I did in my circle of influence and let God take care of the rest. Blessings in Christ. I hope you find your answers and learn to be at peace with leaving God in charge of things we have no control over. No human has all of the answers but when we speak of salvation through Jesus Christ, we are certainly expected to.

 

[Apocolyptica]

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[thesunisout]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

The missing element in your scenario is the word of God:

Roman's 1:18-21

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

This word is telling us that every unsaved person has received enough knowledge of the truth to be guilty before God and incur His wrath. They were already guilty because of sin but they have willfully suppressed the truth as well, and this scripture tells us that when they stand before His throne on judgment day they will have no excuse.

 

[marineimaging]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

Allow me to add one other notion. We can't be in heaven and hell at the same time so we are not bound for heaven from our conception. Rather, we are bound for hell from our conception. It was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross with His pure blood who offered a way to eternal salvation.

 

[ttcmacro]

This is a good question, but the challenge is that even among Christians we are starting with different assumptions about God and how "guilty" person A and B are.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, and our church does not believe in original sin the same way that it is often taught in western churches. So you would find few of us that would say these people are condemned. They will be judged based upon what they did with the light they were given (a light that was very dim in their cases). Although their theology is very different, moderate/liberal Protestants would probably say something similar.

If you alternatively believe that people inherit the guilt of Adam (tradition Roman Catholic perspective) or that even a single sin infinitely offends God (common modern conservative Protestant view) than you would argue they would be condemned. So I think your conclusion really depends on your theological starting point.

 

[marineimaging]

This is a good question, but the challenge is that even among Christians we are starting with different assumptions about God and how "guilty" person A and B are.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, and our church does not believe in original sin the same way that it is often taught in western churches. So you would find few of us that would say these people are condemned. They will be judged based upon what they did with the light they were given (a light that was very dim in their cases). Although their theology is very different, moderate/liberal Protestants would probably say something similar.

If you alternatively believe that people inherit the guilt of Adam (tradition Roman Catholic perspective) or that even a single sin infinitely offends God (common modern conservative Protestant view) than you would argue they would be condemned. So I think your conclusion really depends on your theological starting point.

I am Texas Baptist for what it is worth. I used to worry about that all the time but as I said I was keeping my own soul hostage from the promised salvation because of my concerns for the world. Today I believe from what I read of God's purpose for us from the Bible that there will be people of all denominations and all ages in Heaven. It is my duty to work on my belief in Jesus Christ, the redeemer. Then it is my duty to walk the walk and talk the talk of Jesus Christ in the world in which I live. As for the rest of the world which our God created, if I walk and talk the works of Jesus I am doing all I can. As for who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, I really have no say. God didn't call me on the phone the other day and ask me to come judge the world in His place. Be at peace with Jesus Christ as your cornerstone and your walk will be profitable.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

And that condemnation is based on unforgiven sin. Since "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (except for babies and small children who are incapable of sin) it behooves us to seek and find the only way to salvation--which is through the Blood of Jesus.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Why do we suppose we have any idea of who is headed where? I.have only one soul to concern myself with on that question. My duty is to spread the gospel. Who believes it is God's domain. Not mine. I cannot send anyone to heaven or hell. It is far above my paygrade.p it is above yours as well.

 

[Dan the deacon]

And that condemnation is based on unforgiven sin. Since "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (except for babies and small children who are incapable of sin) it behooves us to seek and find the only way to salvation--which is through the Blood of Jesus.

Small children are incapable of sin? In what universe? All children sin. And they know they do.

 

[pintail]

Heaven and Hell are relational catagories and have little to do with the "afterlife". If you want heaven, go there today. Ask God to show you how to transform your life. Jesus defined what eternal life is. It's knowing him. John 17:3.

If you want to go to hell, just stay stuck in the rut that you're already in. You're already there.

All of these questions about "who makes the cut" totally miss the point. It's a hangover from the worst of our Christendom past.

Surrender your life to God. Let God restore, renew, and mold you into what God made you for. Stop trying to stay in control by being a gatekeeper of the next life. Live!

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Small children are incapable of sin? In what universe? All children sin. And they know they do.

If they are conscious of sin then they are responsible for it (but most young children have little understanding of sin). Babies do NOT sin--see Romans 9:11. Young children are in a grey area. Some are conscious of sin, others are not. Jesus recognized the innocence of babies and young children when He said that "their angels are constantly before the throne of God". Adam and Eve were innocent before the Fall. When they committed their deliberate disobedience, they fell from grace and the plan of Salvation, through the mercy of God, was put in force.

 

[Dan the deacon]

If they are conscious of sin then they are responsible for it (but most young children have little understanding of sin). Babies do NOT sin--see Romans 9:11. Young children are in a grey area. Some are conscious of sin, others are not. Jesus recognized the innocence of babies and young children when He said that "their angels are constantly before the throne of God". Adam and Eve were innocent before the Fall. When they committed their deliberate disobedience, they fell from grace and the plan of Salvation, through the mercy of God, was put in force.

So.do young unbaptized children go.to heaven?

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

This is a good question, but the challenge is that even among Christians we are starting with different assumptions about God and how "guilty" person A and B are.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, and our church does not believe in original sin the same way that it is often taught in western churches. So you would find few of us that would say these people are condemned. They will be judged based upon what they did with the light they were given (a light that was very dim in their cases). Although their theology is very different, moderate/liberal Protestants would probably say something similar.

If you alternatively believe that people inherit the guilt of Adam (tradition Roman Catholic perspective) or that even a single sin infinitely offends God (common modern conservative Protestant view) than you would argue they would be condemned. So I think your conclusion really depends on your theological starting point.

I agree--I think the Western Church took a wrong turn when they accepted Augustine's notion of Original Sin. Augustine spent most of his life as a pagan and I believe his theology was tainted with pagan fatalism. Because so many babies and young children died in Augustine's day, it necessitated another erroneous doctrine--infant baptism--in a departure from the Bible. Part of Augustine's problem was that he did not know Greek and relied on an inferior Latin text for the formation of his theology.

In contrast to Augustine (and the much later Calvin who was a great admirer of Augustine), the Bible teaches "believer's baptism". Those who believe in infant baptism, do a lot of theological dancing to try to "prove" that infant baptism is necessary. The truth is that reciting words over an infant does NOT effect salvation--it amounts to a superstitious incantation and pagan incantations are not effectual for anything. Infant dedication may be called for, as it commits the parents (and the wider congregation of the church) to raising a child under the "nurture and admonition of the Lord".

Augustine actually taught that un-baptized infants go to hell--which I consider to be quite dreadful--a doctrine of demons. Jesus taught that the "angels" of young children "are constantly before the throne of God". Does this sound like He thought that their deaths would bring them unending punishment in hell? The unofficial doctrine of "limbo" for infants who died, was a much later fabrication of the Roman Catholic Church. There is NOTHING in Scripture which would indicate that there is anything called "limbo" (a place that is neither heaven nor hell) for un-baptized infants.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

So.do young unbaptized children go.to heaven?

Yes. If the Blood of Jesus is effectual for our salvation by grace through faith, it is also effectual for those who are incapable of faith. His mercy never fails.

 

[SeekingGodsWill]

I haven't read all the responses, only the original post, but in this HYPOTHETICAL, we are DOING something THAT ONLY GOD CAN DO. That is JUDGiNG people based on some supposition. Only GOD knows all the facts. He is the perfect judge and in the end, after every single human has been judged we will look at it and say "YOU are worthy God. You are amazing, you did the exact right thing in every case."

We can't even say, oh this person is certainly going to heaven because he obviously follows Jesus. Only GOD knows the heart, people can and have fooled us.

Now, this may make you think, I don't like the uncertainty of that. I want to know that if I check this box, then I will make it. Well, that's what FAITH is all about. For me, I have only ONE defense when I stand before God. Only Jesus. Jesus gave His life for me and I accepted that. His blood covers my sins. That's my ONLY defense. Nothing that I have done or thought will matter in that moment.

Now God's Word teaches that what we DO does matter, think of the parable of the talents, but that is NOT the basis for salvation. The finished work of Jesus Christ is the ONLY basis anyone has. And it's probably a GOOD THING to ask yourself, do I have this RELATIONSHIP with Jesus? Have I really accepted Him, or am I just fooling myself? Because Jesus said there will be those at judgment who THOUGHT they had a relationship, but DIDN'T. Christ will say to some, "I never knew you."

So let's stop HYPOTHETICAL what if's and trust God. You either trust Him or you don't!

 

[Theo Book]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

I think you have discovered precisely the reason "JUDGMENT IS LEFT TO GOD."
Not only is Man limited to this life and the experiences and learning capabilities fitted to only one entity, the SELF; but there is a modicum of truth to the old adage "until you have walked a mile in my shoes...." you are not fit to judge me, my actions, nor my motives."

I pray for all Men BECAUSE I do not have the capability to judge righteous judgment, which is required of those who would judge their fellows.

There may even be a degree of mitigation here for those who have been "put through Hell" by their fellow Man.

I leave it to God to be merciful, for I have learned there is no mercy from MAN.

 

[Oldmantook]

I agree--I think the Western Church took a wrong turn when they accepted Augustine's notion of Original Sin. Augustine spent most of his life as a pagan and I believe his theology was tainted with pagan fatalism. Because so many babies and young children died in Augustine's day, it necessitated another erroneous doctrine--infant baptism--in a departure from the Bible. Part of Augustine's problem was that he did not know Greek and relied on an inferior Latin text for the formation of his theology.

In contrast to Augustine (and the much later Calvin who was a great admirer of Augustine), the Bible teaches "believer's baptism". Those who believe in infant baptism, do a lot of theological dancing to try to "prove" that infant baptism is necessary. The truth is that reciting words over an infant does NOT effect salvation--it amounts to a superstitious incantation and pagan incantations are not effectual for anything. Infant dedication may be called for, as it commits the parents (and the wider congregation of the church) to raising a child under the "nurture and admonition of the Lord".

Augustine actually taught that un-baptized infants go to hell--which I consider to be quite dreadful--a doctrine of demons. Jesus taught that the "angels" of young children "are constantly before the throne of God". Does this sound like He thought that their deaths would bring them unending punishment in hell? The unofficial doctrine of "limbo" for infants who died, was a much later fabrication of the Roman Catholic Church. There is NOTHING in Scripture which would indicate that there is anything called "limbo" (a place that is neither heaven nor hell) for un-baptized infants.

I think Augustine has done more damage to the church then any other - not only regarding original sin but also the retributive notion of hell. He popularized the idea of eternal punishment based upon his abysmal knowledge of Greek and had to rely on his understanding of Latin instead.