Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[Danthemailman]

That’s a very interesting twist of scripture but that’s not what Jesus said at all. Where is the word believe in chapter 7? The word believe is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 7. Chapter 7 is about obedience and devotion.

So because the word "believe" is not specifically spelled out in chapter 7, we are to presume that obedience and devotion is not a manifestation of belief? I don't think so.

A few things to consider believing is pretty easy it doesn’t require any kind of devotion or obedience. Believing doesn’t require repentance or works. That makes for a very wide gate to heaven. Believing and devoting yourself to God is more difficult making the gate more narrow.

Mere "mental assent" belief doesn't require repentance, which precedes believing in your heart and results in producing works. The narrow gate to heaven is through believing/trusting/relying in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) and is not based on the merits of our works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

““You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:13‬

Many people don't even realize just how narrow that gate is and are seeking salvation by works. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

There are more false Christians than true Christians. The false Christian doesn’t need to change their life or make any effort to be saved. They just believe Jesus died for their sins and all their sins are forgiven no matter what they do. That’s a HUGE GATE to heaven.

There are many "nominal" (in name only) Christians who attend various false religions and cults who trust in their works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. The life change follows conversion and is the fruit of repentance. We don't simply clean up our act and then Christ accepts us. We accept Him (receive Him through faith) and then He changes us. We become new creations in Christ. If you believe that your best efforts to change your life is making an effort to be saved, then you are trusting in works for salvation and will be disappointed.

So what is the message of the next parable? The tree and it’s fruit.

““Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15-20‬

Which is how we identify good trees that produce good fruit (believers) from bad trees that produce bad fruit (unbelievers).

Then after that is the true disciples.

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’” Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?"

Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Believing is not DOING. Repentance and producing fruit is doing.

To believe unto salvation is to have faith in, trust in, (Acts 16:31) and not simply intellectually acknowledge something to be true (James 2:19). Producing fruit is doing and is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20).

Part of what you said is true. Only a true believer repents and does good works. A person who doesn’t repent and do good works is not a true believer.

All of what I said was true.

There’s a difference between someone saying repentance and works are necessary for salvation and saying a person is saved by repentance and works.

Sounds like a difference without a distinction. Where people get into trouble with repentance, is they confuse the fruit of repentance with repentance itself and end up teaching salvation by works. Such people place repentance "after" faith and have a faith that is no different from the faith of devils, and others who believed the facts about Christ "intellectually." The only difference is they "add" their works and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which actually trusts in Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why such people have so much faith in works to save them.

*We are saved through faith, not works.*

True faith produces repentance and fruit.

True faith produces the fruit of repentance. Someone with true faith has already repented and is not still in need of repenting to become saved.

If someone doesn’t repent or produce fruit they do not have a true faith. Their lack of repentance (being born again) and producing fruit (walking in the Spirit) is evidence that their faith is false.

True faith is not without repentance and only those with true faith walk in the Spirit.

So just because repentance and fruit is necessary for salvation doesn’t mean we are saved by them. It is the true faith that produces these qualities that saves a person.

Sounds like an oxymoron. True faith (that is not without repentance) saves and not the fruit that faith produces.

The Greek word pistis (faith) does not only mean to believe it also means to have faithfulness, trustworthiness, and fidelity. These qualities have to do with devotion and obedience.

Are you defining faith "as" obedience? The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. It sounds to me like you are mainly focused on defining faith as "devotion and obedience" in order to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass; Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

His argument sounds similar to your argument. What he said about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

 

[Danthemailman]

True. So why do you deny the truth of Eph 1:13,14 then? 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words refute your opinions.

So why do you reject the truth of Eph 1:13,14?

There are no verses about a new creation becoming old again, or a sealed believer becoming unsealed. All just opinions, and opinions that are in opposition to Scripture.

Since Eph 1:14 plainly says the indwelling Holy Spirit (the seal) GUARANTEES our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession, your opinion that one can have this mark removed is blatantly false. Uh, there went OSNAS, way out the door.

Amen! Well said!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So why do you deny the truth of Eph 1:13,14 then?

What truth are you referring to?

Seriously? After all this discussion about Eph 1:13,14 you still don't know what the verses clearly state?

Are you that dense and cannot follow what has been said already?

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Once again I colored the words that refute all your claims.

Those who have believed, have been marked in Christ with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT which GUARANTEES our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession.

That's the truth I refer to when I cite Eph 1:13,14, and which you have rejected as not Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This clearly demonstrates a failure to understand grace at all. There is NO EFFORT involved by man in order to be saved.

Only those who put forth the effort to obey the Gospel by repenting will be saved.

Like I said, you suffer from a severe failure to understand grace at all.

Define what you mean by "repent" here in your statement. Do you mean "stop sinning" or "change your mind". I cannot properly respond until I know what you mean by your own words.

 

[JLB777]

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ahhh. You actually quoted the scripture!

Amazing!

Yes the Holy Spirit is given to believers.

I think we all agree on that.

Where you get off track and away from the truth is those who believe for a while.


Your theology falsely teaches those who no longer believe still benefit from this promise of the Holy Spirit just as those who continue to believe.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


Those who depart from the Lord in unbelief no longer have the promise of the Spirit or the promise of salvation.


Next Question.


I’ve only answered this question 25 times over the years.


The word of truth never changes.


JLB

 

[BNR32FAN]

So because the word "believe" is not specifically spelled out in chapter 7, we are to presume that obedience and devotion is not a manifestation of belief? I don't think so.

According to James 2:19-20 someone can believe and yet still not have a saving faith. So obedience is not always a result of believing. Look at James’ example.

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

Mere "mental assent" belief doesn't require repentance, which precedes believing in your heart and results in producing works.

A person can’t turn to God (repent) if they do not first believe in Him. How can someone say I’m going to turn to God if they don’t believe in Him? Our repentance comes from the Holy Spirit as a result of believing. Without first believing we cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit that will enable us to repent. We can do nothing good without the gift of the Holy Spirit. Repentance is turning away from sin and towards God in obedience to to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that is urging us to obey. Repentance is impossible without believing.

Such people place repentance "after" faith and have a faith that is no different from the faith of devils,

As I showed you in James 2:19-20 it is the faith that doesn’t produce works that is no different than that of demons. Are you saying that James is teaching the faith of demons? If you disagree then you are disagreeing with James.

It sounds to me like you are mainly focused on defining faith as "devotion and obedience" in order to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

No you need to take a closer look at the definition you gave for the word pistis. For example fidelity and constancy meaning faithfulness to a person, cause, or belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support, loyalty, allegiance, obedience, trustworthiness, dependability. Notice that this definition is exactly in line with what the early church taught since the very beginning of Christianity. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches agree that faith is not simply believing it is about devotion, obedience trustworthiness, loyalty. Your understanding of the definition of faith seems to be the exact same as believe. Faith and believe are not the same. James 2:19-20 shows that. If they had the same meaning James would be saying you say you have faith because you have faith. Or you say you believe because you believe. That wouldn’t make any sense. James is indicating that faith is different from believing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So because the word "believe" is not specifically spelled out in chapter 7, we are to presume that obedience and devotion is not a manifestation of belief? I don't think so.

Mere "mental assent" belief doesn't require repentance, which precedes believing in your heart and results in producing works. The narrow gate to heaven is through believing/trusting/relying in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) and is not based on the merits of our works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Many people don't even realize just how narrow that gate is and are seeking salvation by works. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

There are many "nominal" (in name only) Christians who attend various false religions and cults who trust in their works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. The life change follows conversion and is the fruit of repentance. We don't simply clean up our act and then Christ accepts us. We accept Him (receive Him through faith) and then He changes us. We become new creations in Christ. If you believe that your best efforts to change your life is making an effort to be saved, then you are trusting in works for salvation and will be disappointed.

Which is how we identify good trees that produce good fruit (believers) from bad trees that produce bad fruit (unbelievers).

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?"

Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

To believe unto salvation is to have faith in, trust in, (Acts 16:31) and not simply intellectually acknowledge something to be true (James 2:19). Producing fruit is doing and is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20).

All of what I said was true.

Sounds like a difference without a distinction. Where people get into trouble with repentance, is they confuse the fruit of repentance with repentance itself and end up teaching salvation by works. Such people place repentance "after" faith and have a faith that is no different from the faith of devils, and others who believed the facts about Christ "intellectually." The only difference is they "add" their works and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which actually trusts in Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why such people have so much faith in works to save them.

*We are saved through faith, not works.*

True faith produces the fruit of repentance. Someone with true faith has already repented and is not still in need of repenting to become saved.

True faith is not without repentance and only those with true faith walk in the Spirit.

Sounds like an oxymoron. True faith (that is not without repentance) saves and not the fruit that faith produces.

Are you defining faith "as" obedience? The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. It sounds to me like you are mainly focused on defining faith as "devotion and obedience" in order to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass; Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

His argument sounds similar to your argument. What he said about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

What you are teaching is that all of Christianity was wrong for the first 1500+ years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ahhh. You actually quoted the scripture!
Amazing!

I do it regularly. I also cite Scripture regularly. So what? Other than forcing you to push that very heavy cursor of yours to hover over the citation. But maybe you haven't even done that.

Yes the Holy Spirit is given to believers.

A whole lot more than that. Keep reading it until it sinks in.

Where you get off track and away from the truth is those who believe for a while.

No, it's you who left the track long ago and crashed. There is nothing about "for a while" in Eph 1:13,14.

But you just won't admit that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the one "having believed" (that means in the past, since you demonstrate a woeful ignorance of the aorist tense) of their inheritance until the redemption (not condemnation) of God's possession.

iow, once sealed, the believer is God's possession. OSGP!

Your theology falsely teaches those who no longer believe still benefit from this promise of the Holy Spirit just as those who continue to believe.

I just explained WHY that is. Which you hate. But since you never deal with my points, but just continue to cut and paste your own opinions, we know that you'll never face the obvious truth of Eph 1:14.

The aorist tense just smashes your opinions.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Says nothing about losing salvation. The "falling away" refers to their faith.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

One must reject Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24, 10:28 and 1 John 5:13 in order to make this claim.

Why do you reject Scripture?

You've got NO verses that say those who believe for a while lose salvation.

Those who depart from the Lord in unbelief no longer have the promise of the Spirit or the promise of salvation.

Just an irrational opinion. Nothing more.

Next Question.

Why do you reject Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24, 6:47 10:28 and 1 John 5:13?

Rejecting any of God's Word is tantamount to hating God's Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to James 2:19-20 someone can believe and yet still not have a saving faith.

Actually, it doesn't say anything close to that!

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?

First, v.19 says that belief in monotheism is held by demons, and are fearful of it. But belief in monotheism isn't even close to saving faith.

Second, v.20 is a statement about the fact that those who have believed but show NO evidence is useless in demonstrating their faith.

Now, explain how my explanation of v.20 cannot be right.

So obedience is not always a result of believing. Look at James’ example.

And I agree. Obedience is COMMANDED of believers. So it certainly is not automatic.

Ever been commanded to breathe? Of course not. It's automatic.

 

[JLB777]

I do it regularly. I also cite Scripture regularly. So what? Other than forcing you to push that very heavy cursor of yours to hover over the citation. But maybe you haven't even done that.


A whole lot more than that. Keep reading it until it sinks in.


No, it's you who left the track long ago and crashed. There is nothing about "for a while" in Eph 1:13,14.

But you just won't admit that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the one "having believed" (that means in the past, since you demonstrate a woeful ignorance of the aorist tense) of their inheritance until the redemption (not condemnation) of God's possession.

iow, once sealed, the believer is God's possession. OSGP!


I just explained WHY that is. Which you hate. But since you never deal with my points, but just continue to cut and paste your own opinions, we know that you'll never face the obvious truth of Eph 1:14.

The aorist tense just smashes your opinions.


Says nothing about losing salvation. The "falling away" refers to their faith.


One must reject Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24, 10:28 and 1 John 5:13 in order to make this claim.

Why do you reject Scripture?

You've got NO verses that say those who believe for a while lose salvation.


Just an irrational opinion. Nothing more.


Why do you reject Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24, 6:47 10:28 and 1 John 5:13?

Rejecting any of God's Word is tantamount to hating God's Word.

Still no explanation here about how a person who believes for a while then no longer believes still has the same benefit of salvation that a believer has.

I wonder why?


Maybe because their is none.


Because a person who falls away from Christ in unbelief in no longer a believer.


Believe is the condition for eternal life.

Those who no longer believe:

NO LONGER BELIEVE! Lol!!!


Only the devil himself would try to persuade God’s people that those who no longer believe still have salvation like faithful believers.


What a foolish deception.


Does anyone really fall for that nonsense?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Still no explanation here about how a person who believes for a while then no longer believes still has the same benefit of salvation that a believer has.

Dishonest response, as everyone knows.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to, per John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:13, which is on the basis of believing in Him, shall never perish, according to John 10:28.

I wonder why?

The real question is I wonder why you reject so much Scripture.

Maybe because their is none.

It's easy to make that absurd claim when you cherry pick the verses you just don't like.

Because a person who falls away from Christ in unbelief in no longer a believer.

So? Once saved, always saved. Everyone knows that.

And once sealed, always sealed and inheritance guaranteed. Eph 1:14

Or, OSAS, or OSIG.

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

What you continually FAIL to prove is that loss of faith equals loss of salvation.

And apparently it's just too complicated for you to understand that if loss of fail did result in loss of salvation, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 would be false, a lie.

But I guess that's your goal in life; to prove Jesus wrong.

Those who no longer believe:
NO LONGER BELIEVE! Lol!!!

Well, it sure ain't funny. It's really sad.

But, so are those who have to reject very clear Scripture in order to hold on to their totally unbiblical opinions.

Only the devil himself would try to persuade God’s people that those who no longer believe still have salvation like faithful believers.

Wrong again! The devil would much rather have believers afraid of losing what has been guaranteed.

That way, they FAIL to be really trusting in God. They are trusting in their own works.

What a foolish deception.

I agree. Totally foolish.

Does anyone really fall for that nonsense?

Well, you certainly have. Putting your trust in your own efforts to stay saved.

 

[JLB777]

Dishonest response, as everyone knows.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to, per John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:13, which is on the basis of believing in Him, shall never perish, according to John 10:28.


The real question is I wonder why you reject so much Scripture.


It's easy to make that absurd claim when you cherry pick the verses you just don't like.


So? Once saved, always saved. Everyone knows that.

And once sealed, always sealed and inheritance guaranteed. Eph 1:14

Or, OSAS, or OSIG.


What you continually FAIL to prove is that loss of faith equals loss of salvation.

And apparently it's just too complicated for you to understand that if loss of fail did result in loss of salvation, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 would be false, a lie.

But I guess that's your goal in life; to prove Jesus wrong.


Well, it sure ain't funny. It's really sad.

But, so are those who have to reject very clear Scripture in order to hold on to their totally unbiblical opinions.


Wrong again! The devil would much rather have believers afraid of losing what has been guaranteed.

That way, they FAIL to be really trusting in God. They are trusting in their own works.


I agree. Totally foolish.


Well, you certainly have. Putting your trust in your own efforts to stay saved.

Another dodge with no scripture.

Your claim that people can believe for a while, then no longer believe, turning to other gods, and still be saved is Well noted among those who know and obey the truth.

OSAS = Doctrine of demons.


One scripture puts an end to your silly doctrine of deception.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

esus said that those He gives eternal life to, per John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:13, which is on the basis of believing in Him, shall never perish, according to John 10:28.

The real question is I wonder why you reject so much Scripture.

Another dodge with no scripture.

Again, can only be claimed when one rejects John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28 and 1 John 5:13.

Why do you do that?

Your claim that people can believe for a while, then no longer believe, turning to other gods, and still be saved is Well noted among those who know and obey the truth.

I believe what Jesus said, unlike yourself.

He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But you claim they CAN and WILL perish if they cease to believe. Jesus never said that.

OSAS = Doctrine of demons.

I'm sure Jesus is taking note of your blasphemy.

One scripture puts an end to your silly doctrine of deception.

said the blasphemer. lol

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Well, if that means what you so ignorantly think it means, then what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life cannot be true.

In addition to John 10:28 being a verse that puts an end to your blaspheming, also consider Heb 9:15 - Because Christ offered himself to God, he is able to bring a new promise from God. Through his death he paid the price to set people free from the sins they committed under the first promise. He did this so that those who are called can be guaranteed an inheritance that will last forever.

This verse says the same thing as Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Everyone where I look in the Bible I find verses that very plainly refute your opinions.

 

[JLB777]

esus said that those He gives eternal life to, per John 5:24, 6:47, and 1 John 5:13, which is on the basis of believing in Him, shall never perish, according to John 10:28.

The real question is I wonder why you reject so much Scripture.

Again, can only be claimed when one rejects John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28 and 1 John 5:13.

Why do you do that?


I believe what Jesus said, unlike yourself.

He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But you claim they CAN and WILL perish if they cease to believe. Jesus never said that.


I'm sure Jesus is taking note of your blasphemy.


said the blasphemer. lol


Well, if that means what you so ignorantly think it means, then what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life cannot be true.

In addition to John 10:28 being a verse that puts an end to your blaspheming, also consider Heb 9:15 - Because Christ offered himself to God, he is able to bring a new promise from God. Through his death he paid the price to set people free from the sins they committed under the first promise. He did this so that those who are called can be guaranteed an inheritance that will last forever.

This verse says the same thing as Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Everyone where I look in the Bible I find verses that very plainly refute your opinions.

More of your opinion tagged with scripture references.

Please explain how a verse of scripture refutes scripture.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

More of your opinion tagged with scripture references.

This is beyond tired. But since you prefer to just cut and paste and regurgitate your posts, please, instead, prove that my "opinion" is not what the verses I cite say.

That's how one gains credibility, rather than just throwing out your own unsubstantiated opinions, none of which are supported by any verses.

Please explain how a verse of scripture refutes scripture.

No verse ever refutes any other Scripture. But you know well enough what I really said.

I said that IF the verses you keep quoting really DO mean what you claim they mean, then those verses WOULD refute what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

All you've done is prove that you have no idea what "abiding" means.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

True. And you repeatedly prove that this verse applies to yourself.

He who says "I know Him", YET does NOT believe what He teaches in John 10:28, is a liar, and the truth is NOT in him.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Those who believe that recipients of eternal life can perish transgresses Scripture and does not abide in the doctrine of christ and does NOT have God. He who accepts what Jesus said in John 10:28 has both the Father and the Son.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

Whoever believes that recipients of eternal life makes himself an enemy of God.

Seems you're on a roll.

 

[JLB777]

He who says "I know Him", YET does NOT believe what He teaches in John 10:28, is a liar, and the truth is NOT in him.

Yes I agree.

And since your afraid to post what John 10:28 says, it seems your the liar.

That verse starts with the word “and”.

“And” connects verse 28 with verse 27.

See you never mention verse 27, Freegrace because you are a deceitful liar who promotes half truths and Heresy.

You will soon find this out when you stand before Christ and are Judged according to your deeds.

Those who promote Heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


You even twist what inherit the kingdom of God means.


So sad.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

These scriptures can not be refuted.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4




JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

According to James 2:19-20 someone can believe and yet still not have a saving faith. So obedience is not always a result of believing. Look at James’ example.

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

The word translated "believe" is from the Greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Obedience is a result of saving belief.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

A person can’t turn to God (repent) if they do not first believe in Him. How can someone say I’m going to turn to God if they don’t believe in Him?

A person must first believe in the existence of God before they can repent and turn to God. Repentance actually precedes saving belief/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

Our repentance comes from the Holy Spirit as a result of believing.

You continue to place "repentance" after believing in Christ. Those who believe in Christ are saved and are not still in need of repentance in order to become saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). The confusion arises when "believe" is understood as nothing more than "intellectual assent" to the existence and historical facts about Christ and repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation." Those who reverse the scriptural order of repentance/faith in receiving salvation fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

True repentance is prompted by “godly sorrow," and it leads to salvation. (2 Corinthians 7:10) No one can repent and come to Christ unless God draws them and enables them/grants it (John 6:44). No one can repent unless God grants repentance (Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18). So repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4). Yet we still must choose to repent and believe the gospel.

Without first believing we cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit that will enable us to repent.

Those who believe and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit are saved and have already repented. It sounds to me like you are confusing the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) with the essence of repentance. People who teach salvation by works do the same thing with faith. They confuse the fruit of faith (good works) with the essence of faith (belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation) and end up teaching salvation by faith + works. Roman Catholics and Mormons are both guilty on all counts.

We can do nothing good without the gift of the Holy Spirit. Repentance is turning away from sin and towards God in obedience to to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that is urging us to obey. Repentance is impossible without believing.

You still have it backwards. The scriptural order is "..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21) In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order. In Mark 1:15, Jesus said "repent and believe in the gospel," not believe in the gospel, then after wards repent. In Romans 1:16, we read that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes..

*Now according to your logic, these saved believers are still in need of repentance in order to become saved.

If repentance simply means "turning away from sin" then can we only be saved if we completely stop sinning? Those who turn from sin to God no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness (1 John 3:9-10) but that does not mean that believers become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time exactly like Jesus from the moment they receive salvation through faith (1 John 1:8-2:1).

As I showed you in James 2:19-20 it is the faith that doesn’t produce works that is no different than that of demons. Are you saying that James is teaching the faith of demons? If you disagree then you are disagreeing with James.

As I already previously explained - The word translated "believe" is from the Greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Obedience is a result of saving belief.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

No you need to take a closer look at the definition you gave for the word pistis. For example fidelity and constancy meaning faithfulness to a person, cause, or belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support, loyalty, allegiance, obedience, trustworthiness, dependability. Notice that this definition is exactly in line with what the early church taught since the very beginning of Christianity. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches agree that faith is not simply believing it is about devotion, obedience trustworthiness, loyalty.

Authentic faith in Christ is demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support, loyalty, allegiance, obedience, trustworthiness, dependability. Yet you need to understand that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" (Romans 3:22-28) and not based on the merits of our works. Faith is believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. It's disturbing to say the least that you are in agreement with the Roman Catholic church.

Your understanding of the definition of faith seems to be the exact same as believe. Faith and believe are not the same.

It's interesting that the result of both faith and believe is salvation (Ephesians 2:8; Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Christ (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31); have faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Romans 3:22-28; Ephesians 2:8) then you are not only believing in the historical facts about Christ and the totality of His person, but are trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and it sounds like you are making the same error.

James 2:19-20 shows that. If they had the same meaning James would be saying you say you have faith because you have faith. Or you say you believe because you believe. That wouldn’t make any sense. James is indicating that faith is different from believing.

Faith is different from "mental assent" belief (James 2:19) but not so different from saving belief (Acts 16:31).

Believe
4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31, and that seems to be what is confusing you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The word translated "believe" is from the Greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Obedience is a result of saving belief.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

A person must first believe in the existence of God before they can repent and turn to God. Repentance actually precedes saving belief/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

You continue to place "repentance" after believing in Christ. Those who believe in Christ are saved and are not still in need of repentance in order to become saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). The confusion arises when "believe" is understood as nothing more than "intellectual assent" to the existence and historical facts about Christ and repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation." Those who reverse the scriptural order of repentance/faith in receiving salvation fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

True repentance is prompted by “godly sorrow," and it leads to salvation. (2 Corinthians 7:10) No one can repent and come to Christ unless God draws them and enables them/grants it (John 6:44). No one can repent unless God grants repentance (Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18). So repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4). Yet we still must choose to repent and believe the gospel.

Those who believe and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit are saved and have already repented. It sounds to me like you are confusing the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) with the essence of repentance. People who teach salvation by works do the same thing with faith. They confuse the fruit of faith (good works) with the essence of faith (belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation) and end up teaching salvation by faith + works. Roman Catholics and Mormons are both guilty on all counts.

You still have it backwards. The scriptural order is "..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21) In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order. In Mark 1:15, Jesus said "repent and believe in the gospel," not believe in the gospel, then after wards repent. In Romans 1:16, we read that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes..

*Now according to your logic, these saved believers are still in need of repentance in order to become saved.

If repentance simply means "turning away from sin" then can we only be saved if we completely stop sinning? Those who turn from sin to God no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness (1 John 3:9-10) but that does not mean that believers become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time exactly like Jesus from the moment they receive salvation through faith (1 John 1:8-2:1).

As I already previously explained - The word translated "believe" is from the Greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Obedience is a result of saving belief.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Authentic faith in Christ is demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support, loyalty, allegiance, obedience, trustworthiness, dependability. Yet you need to understand that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" (Romans 3:22-28) and not based on the merits of our works. Faith is believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. It's disturbing to say the least that you are in agreement with the Roman Catholic church.

It's interesting that the result of both faith and believe is salvation (Ephesians 2:8; Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Christ (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31); have faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Romans 3:22-28; Ephesians 2:8) then you are not only believing in the historical facts about Christ and the totality of His person, but are trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and it sounds like you are making the same error.

Faith is different from "mental assent" belief (James 2:19) but not so different from saving belief (Acts 16:31).

Believe
4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31, and that seems to be what is confusing you.

Can you please give one example of someone who received the Holy Spirit before believing?

 

[Danthemailman]

Can you please give one example of someone who received the Holy Spirit before believing?

I never said that unbelievers receive the Holy Spirit. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive..

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.