Predestination

Oct 21, 2003
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Unconditionally? I’m afraid not my friend. Repentance aka being born again is a must along with producing fruit. John 15:1-8 does not sound like unconditional salvation. Unconditional salvation would mean we can do what we want not what God wants. Please take a look at these examples.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

My love for my son is unconditional, and I discipline him out of the same love. What is the grace of God? It is unmerited favor. What is the mercy of God? Undeserved love. Why are we to turn the other cheek? To demonstrate the unconditional love of God. If you think the grace and mercy of God is reason to do whatever we want, then I am sorry for you my friend, because experiencing the grace of God and in the power of the Spirit, it compels towards sharing the grace of God with others out of profound gratitude towards God, Amazing Grace. What is so amazing about a rigid Christian moralism or behaviorism?

Our sinfulness is not rooted in unconditional love, but rather in [limited] freedom of the will, and attributing sins to the unconditional love of God is categorically an error, it is blaming God for what we do, but people who do not believe in the unconditional love of God, do this regularly, demonstrating that believing in the unconditional love of God, is not the grounds for disobedience.
 
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gordonhooker

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The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

They are quite precious aren't they? It must make them feel just so special... :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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My love for my son is unconditional, and I discipline him out of the same love. What is the grace of God? It is unmerited favor. What is the mercy of God? Undeserved love. Why are we to turn the other cheek? To demonstrate the unconditional love of God. If you think the grace and mercy of God is reason to do whatever we want, then I am sorry for you my friend, because experiencing the grace of God and in the power of the Spirit, it compels towards sharing the grace of God with others out of profound gratitude towards God, Amazing Grace. What is so amazing about a rigid Christian moralism or behaviorism?

Our sinfulness is not rooted in unconditional love, but rather in [limited] freedom of the will, and attributing sins to the unconditional love of God is categorically an error, it is blaming God for what we do, but people who do not believe in the unconditional love of God, do this regularly, demonstrating that believing in the unconditional love of God, is not the grounds for disobedience.

I’m starting to see a pattern here. You keep twisting what I’m saying and avoiding the key points my friend. Here let’s review our conversation.

In Christ we have the ability to overcome the sinful nature of our flesh and even still we ALL fail. If theonomous perseverance were true then some people would be able to live without sin. Even the apostles still sinned. How is that possible if thonomous perseverance is true? Was the gift of obedience taken away from then and then later given back again?

Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus. Thomas doubted. Judas was a sinner probably the entire time so I’m not sure if he counts. Lol

So the disciples fell away from Christ with every sin? They were cut off of the vine with each sin?

Notice that your reply is nothing like what I said. You’ve twisted my point to avoid answering the question Was the gift of obedience (theomous perseverance) taken away from them and then later given back again?

No I’m not saying they fell away with every sin but if perseverance is from God given to His elec then how can it be imperfect? The very definition of perseverance suggests a continuance of obedience. If someone fails to be obedient they didn’t persevere. I would sooner believe that it is our own flaws that cause our disobedience rather than an imperfect gift of perseverance from God. I hope I’m not sounding condescending or impolite friend it is not my intention. Calvinism just has too many hoops to jump thru to make it all work. I still see Jesus warning his apostles in John 15:1-8. The last 8 words in verse 4 are definitely directed at them as a warning. 2 Peter 3:9 & 1 Timothy 2:3-4 say that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. How can that be true if God doesn’t elect everyone?

If perfection came through obedience, then it would come through obedience to the law, and Christ died in vein.

Again I never said anything remotely close to perfection comes thru obedience and again you still avoided the question Was the gift of obedience taken away from them and then later given back again? This is also the second time I mentioned 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and you didn’t address the fact that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. This contradicts the idea of God’s election.

Maybe this will help, Theomous Perseverance, is the perseverance of God with His people. The parable of the Good Shepherd comes to mind. We are covenant breakers, we break promises, but God is a covenant keeper, He does not go back on His promises, and when He chooses to save someone, He does so unconditionally, if He saved people conditionally, none would be saved, because we sometimes choose not to obey.

Unconditionally? I’m afraid not my friend. Repentance aka being born again is a must along with producing fruit. John 15:1-8 does not sound like unconditional salvation. Unconditional salvation would mean we can do what we want not what God wants. Please take a look at these examples.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27

Here you say salvation is unconditional and I give examples showing salvation is not unconditional and you twist what I said saying that I’m saying God’s love is conditional when I specifically said that salvation is not unconditional but God’s love is unconditional. Every time I ask a question you avoid it, twist what I said, and give an answer that doesn’t pertain to my question. Why are you doing this? What can’t you simply answer the questions? I posted John 15:1-8 showing that Jesus is warning His apostles that they must remain in Him and produce fruit and you quoted verse 5 in an attempt to show that Jesus was not saying that they the apostles themselves could fail to remain in Him. Then I posted verse 4 and you proving that Jesus was in fact warning them and you disregarded it. Just like the scriptures I posted refuting your claim of unconditional salvation. Aren’t you interested in understanding the truth? It’s great that you admit God’s unconditional love amen!! So how does unconditional love result in God’s elect? If His love is unconditional how can He only choose certain people and allow those who are not chosen to burn having absolutely no chance for salvation? Please my friend search the Bible and your heart for the answers to these questions. Pray and ask God for understanding. The answers to these questions will lead you to the truth. God bless you
 
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BNR32FAN

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My love for my son is unconditional, and I discipline him out of the same love. What is the grace of God? It is unmerited favor. What is the mercy of God? Undeserved love. Why are we to turn the other cheek? To demonstrate the unconditional love of God. If you think the grace and mercy of God is reason to do whatever we want, then I am sorry for you my friend, because experiencing the grace of God and in the power of the Spirit, it compels towards sharing the grace of God with others out of profound gratitude towards God, Amazing Grace. What is so amazing about a rigid Christian moralism or behaviorism?

Our sinfulness is not rooted in unconditional love, but rather in [limited] freedom of the will, and attributing sins to the unconditional love of God is categorically an error, it is blaming God for what we do, but people who do not believe in the unconditional love of God, do this regularly, demonstrating that believing in the unconditional love of God, is not the grounds for disobedience.

My friend can we please trade places? Please post the scriptures that you believe prove God’s election and allow me to explain them in a way that does not contradict any of God’s teachings. Perhaps this can shed more light and help you get another perspective. :)
 
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My friend can we please trade places? Please post the scriptures that you believe prove God’s election and allow me to explain them in a way that does not contradict any of God’s teachings. Perhaps this can shed more light and help you get another perspective. :)

GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE (before the foundation of the world)

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.

GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE

Exodus 6:7I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Psalms 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.

Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Romans 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (12) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

John 10:2-3 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myselfseven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 
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sdowney717

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GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE (before the foundation of the world)

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.

GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE

Exodus 6:7I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Psalms 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.

Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Romans 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (12) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

John 10:2-3 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myselfseven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
And many more too
In Jude it says we are called, sanctified and preserved by the Spirit.
Salvation is to them that have received mercy, peace, and love from God, given to them as gifts due to God's great love for them.
The more you look for election, the more you find the proof in scripture.

Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
 
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BNR32FAN

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GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE (before the foundation of the world)

I’m sorry it took some time to get started on this I had to work yesterday. I started this last night but didn’t have time to finish it. Ok I’m going to address the topics you posted not each individual verse but if you feel that a particular verse contradicts my point then please let me know.


God chooses people before creation


Yes God did choose us from two separate groups. Those who believe and follow His teachings and those who don’t believe or don’t follow His teachings. He chose those who were victorious to be His adopted children of God. The choice is set before us and He chose those who chose Him. Yes He chose us before we chose Him because we weren’t created yet. God foresaw the ones who would believe until the end of life on earth or believe until Jesus returns. Now there are those who are chosen without having a choice. The prophets and the apostles are some examples. Pharaoh is another example of someone chosen by God without having a choice. This is what Romans 9 is talking about. God chose some people to accomplish certain tasks because He foresaw they would accomplish the task He had given them. God didn’t make them accomplish the task without their own free will. Jonah was given a task and rebelled against God. Jonah’s rebellion is a prime example of free will in a person God chose. Even tho Jonah didn’t want to accomplish His task God gave him no alternative. If God had removed Jonah’s free will Jonah would’ve gone straight to Nineveh from the beginning. Peter is another example. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. God didn’t make Peter deny Jesus. Peter did it because of his own free will because he was in fear for his life. God knew that both Jonah and Peter would accomplish their task of their own free will. Jonah just needed a little push tho, lol then he straightened right out. Doubting Thomas is another example of free will. He didn’t believe Jesus was resurrected. These examples are human flaws caused by free will. If these men didn’t have free will they wouldn’t have sinned. When the Bible says that our fruit is of God’s will it means God has given us the ability to overcome the nature of our sinful flesh. It doesn’t mean that we are controlled by God against our will. Without God we cannot overcome our sinful nature but with the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to choose to obey and defeat the evil one. See this explains how we cannot take credit for our works because without The Holy Spirit working thru us we would not be able to produce fruit. So our works are not accredited to us but to God for His glory but He does reward us for choosing to obey. If we had no control over whether we obey or not why do we receive rewards in heaven according to our deeds? Because we must choose to do our part. A reward is something earned. If we have no choice then we have earned nothing.


I’d like to show you an example from 2 Thessalonians. You quoted verse 13


“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

2 Thessalonians 2:13


Now the Greek word for bound is opheílō meaning to owe. It doesn’t mean confined or restricted to. What I want to show you is verses 14 & 15.


“whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.”

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15


These people are called by God thru the gospel and yet Paul is urging them to hold to his teachings. This is evidence that they still have free will. That they can still fall from grace. God calls on many thru the gospel who do not hold to his teachings. I hate to use this as an example but look at the Roman church during the 12th century all the way to the 19th century. So many were called by the gospel and fell from grace. For 686 years the inquisitions were sanctioned by 99 popes. All of them were called yet they were so far from grace. It was by their own free will that they decided to force people to convert. Arresting, imprisoning, torturing, and executing nonbelievers is not the work of the Holy Spirit. It was the work of greedy men seeking power and wealth abusing the power that was given to them. It’s possible some of them could’ve come back to Christ before they died, who knows? This is an example of the difference between those who are called and those who are chosen. They were called so that they might have a chance for salvation but they didn’t truly believe otherwise they would’ve obeyed God. So they were not chosen. By their actions at the time didn’t appear to be chosen. Like I said it is possible they could’ve come to Christ before their time was up. We can’t say for sure.


Now you quoted John 1:12-13


“He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

John 1:11-13


Jesus came into His own and they rejected Him of their own free will. God’s chosen Israelites we’re constantly rebelling of their own free will. Verse 13 is saying those who received Jesus were born again not to serve their own will but God’s will. They chose to accept God’s will. Not their own way but God’s way. Yet all of these people still sinned because of their own free will. They wanted to honor God’s will but still stumbled. As long as we still have free will we are able to lose our salvation. Now don’t get me wrong eternal security is absolutely true in a sense. The book of life is written and it will not be edited. But we don’t know who is in and who isn’t. A person could’ve been on the path to being saved but fell from grace and wasn’t victorious to the end. That person lost their salvation. They could’ve had it but weren’t written in the book of life because they didn’t continue remain in Christ. That’s what I mean by loss of salvation. I don’t mean that a person has salvation but then is erased or blotted out of the book of life. That will never happen. God foresaw our fate from beginning to end and He knows our outcome. And the outcome is all that really matters. We’re we in Christ at the end? The beginning and middle don’t matter. Sure we will receive more rewards in heaven according to our deeds but it doesn’t matter as far as salvation. For those of us who are still alive we are presently shaping what God foresaw before creation because of our free will. I have the ability to choose to worship God right now or to curse Him. Everything we do now and in the future is shaping what God foresaw. You see the idea of God choosing who lives and who burns goes against God’s nature and character. God is a loving and just God. He is kind and fair. He is love. Saying inny minny miney moe and choosing who will live and who will burn contradicts His loving nature. It’s insulting to His character. God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son to save the world. He didn’t send Jesus to save a selected group in the world. He gave us a doorway to heaven which is Jesus Christ but we must seek and knock and the door will be opened. It’s not God’s fault that people burn. It’s their own fault.

One more point I’d like to make is that Calvinism didn’t begin until the 16th century and to say that it is the true gospel is to say that all of Christianity for the first 1500+ years was incorrect. That no church had the correct gospel. The men taught by the apostles themselves were wrong. That’s extremely hard to believe and means that for the first 1500 years everyone was being deceived by the church.

Im going to stop there. Let me know if you believe something I’ve said contradicts the scriptures. Have a blessed day. :)
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Sure.
"They have burned incense in it to other gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have ever known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind."
Are you an open theist Loren?
The way you are misusing this verse suggests you do not understand the biblical God as revealed in scripture.
Again God....the biblical omniscient God was not aware of this?
Is that your view....?
 
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Loren T.

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What do you mean? Do you now suggest the fall surprised God?
Of course not. Knowledge is not causation in the real world. Under Calvinism, however, God can not know unless he determines to do something, therefore everything is caused by God.
 
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Loren T.

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Are you an open theist Loren?
The way you are misusing this verse suggests you do not understand the biblical God as revealed in scripture.
Again God....the biblical omniscient God was not aware of this?
All I did was quote the verse. How is that misusing it? More like, you don't like what the verse implys?
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Of course not. Knowledge is not causation in the real world. Under Calvinism, however, God can not know unless he determines to do something, therefore everything is caused by God.
So again you describe God as a spectator?
 
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Loren T.

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So again you describe God as a spectator?
Lol. Translation: I don't like your conclusions, so I'm just randoming making up stuff to divert you off topic. "So you're an open theist?" "So you think God is just watching a movie?" I bet your next one is "So you're a universalist?" So predictable.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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All I did was quote the verse. How is that misusing it? More like, you don't like what the verse implys?
You quoted this verse in an attempt to say things happen that were not ordained to come to pass....that means you are using it to sinfully suggest
That God lacked knowledge or control, either of which would mean God is not God in your world.
 
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Loren T.

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You quoted this verse in an attempt to say things happen that were not ordained to come to pass....that means you are using it to sinfgully suggest
That God lacked knowledge or control, either of which would mean God is not God in your world.
Funny, for centuries, most of the church didn't have a problem with God not controlling every thought that passed through a person's mind. Were they all heretics? I suspect their problem is that they actually read the whole Bible and found out that people actually do rebel against God's will. How silly of them.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Lol. Translation: I don't like your conclusions, so I'm just randoming making up stuff to divert you off topic. "So you're an open theist?" "So you think God is just watching a movie?" I bet your next one is "So you're a universalist?" So predictable.
No....translation....you do not understand anything in this interaction.
You are offering profane ideas about God as if He were a man, rather than God. You flee from responding to the verses offered earlier, because you have no response but to claim you are being victimized by Calvinists,lol.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Funny, for centuries, most of the church didn't have a problem with God not controlling every thought that passed through a person's mind. Were they all heretics? I suspect their problem is that they actually read the whole Bible and found out that people actually do rebel against God's will. How silly of them.
Care to enlighten us as to who in church history you are referring To?
You now are saying God does know what is in man despite In jn2 saying Jesus knew exactly what was in them so He did not commit Himself unto them.
You random unbiblical statements contrast and conflict with scripture time after time...
You jumping around and trying to explain away your theology which is devoid of scripture support is obvious for all to see.
 
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Loren T.

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Which verses? You already used the tired old, "You just don't understand." line. You guys need some new material. It's like you all read from the same playbook. By profane ideas, you mean: men really do rebel against God, as God himself says they do all through the scripture.
 
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Loren T.

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You now are saying God does know what is in man despite In 2 saying Jesus knew exactly what was in them?
I don't know what this means?
God knows what is in man. Ok, that I get.
The second half needs clarification.
 
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You random unbiblical statements contrast and conflict Sith scripture time after time...
Those darn Siths...actually quite appropriate, since Calvinism does remind one a lot of the force in star wars. Yes, if the Sith have scripture the Bible is most certainly in contrast to it. Because God is not the dualistic force that determinism necessarily makes him. Augustine probably was the first to bring a form of this into the church because of going too far in the direction of God having to control man's will, in his opposing Pelagius. Luther and Calvin just read Augustine's writings and brought determinism to the reformation. Kinda a shame that when they threw out the corruption of the Catholic church, they swung too far in another direction, but that's human nature. Wesley was one who swung things back to center a bit.
 
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