Is this "bigoted" ... or?

[SkyWriting]

Every gay person I know is JUST as focused on genitalia...lol Part of what defines a gay dude is that he's interested in a specific thing. And gay dudes aren't interested in the other. Eventually - that "transphobic" label about those issues will equally be applied to them by those "in their own community".

Just a kind reflection on you that they have that focus.
My block area has about 25% gay singles and couples.
Including Bob, across the street outside my front window
I have no idea if these people have sex. I know nothing
more about their sex life than I do about your parents.
They spend the most time with same sex people and
less with the other gender, so I imagine they are gay.

Gay people have no different lifestyle at home than
any of your neighbors do. Do they have sex?
I can only guess.

 

[SkyWriting]

Gender is gender, male or female. It is not the stereotypes that are associated with it. A man is still a part of the male gender whether he is macho or docile, and a woman is part of the female gender whether she is macho or docile. What we need to do, rather than redefining gender, is break down the stereotypes about what men and women are supposed to enjoy or act like.

Biological sex is usually male or female.
There are a score of disorders that result in less common results
for more than 1 in 100 people.

• 45, X, also known as Turner syndrome
• 45,X/46,XY mosaicism
• 46, XX/XY
• 47, XXX, also known as Triple X syndrome and trisomy X
• 47, XXY, also known as Klinefelter syndrome
• 47, XYY, has normal phenotype
• 48, XXXX
• 48, XXXY
• 48, XXYY
• 49, XXXXY
• 49, XXXXX
• XX gonadal dysgenesis
• XY gonadal dysgenesis
• XX male syndrome

Gender is partly what we can choose.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
Understanding Gender | Gender Spectrum

 

[Dave-W]

Sky - you left off chimerism.

I know there are no numbers on how common that is, but it is out there.

 

[DZoolander]

Just a kind reflection on you that they have that focus.
My block area has about 25% gay singles and couples.
Including Bob, across the street outside my front window
I have no idea if these people have sex. I know nothing
more about their sex life than I do about your parents.
They spend the most time with same sex people and
less with the other gender, so I imagine they are gay.

Gay people have no different lifestyle at home than
any of your neighbors do. Do they have sex?
I can only guess.

lol, what?

 

[DZoolander]

A couple of things:

1. If people want to tinker with the labels "boy" and "girl" / "man" and "woman", etc...I have no problems with that. If they want to make the labels equate more to "gender" instead of "biological sex" (which is what it has been traditionally understood by most to equate) - I'm cool with that. I'm not a person particularly vested in labels. My only caveat to that is to make sure that everyone is on the same page.
   
   In other words - don't change the words "man" and "woman" to mean more of "the social role they play irrespective of genitalia" - and then talk to people about other topics like sexual preference with those terms in mind without giving them input on the new terms. Most likely - the people you're talking to are not using those words the same way you are.
   
   If we're going to redefine words - then I think you need to take into account how people had previously used those words. MOST people use "man and woman" interchangeably with "biological sex". In other words - "man" = someone with a penis. "woman" = someone with a vagina. MOST people when they say "straight man" mean "someone with a penis who desires someone with a vagina". "Gay man" means "someone with a penis who desires someone else with a penis".
   
   If a "biological man" can be a "woman" - then for most people - a man/woman relationship can be a homosexual one. If a "biological woman" can be a "man" - then a man/man relationship can be a heterosexual one. Because in essence - you're talking about two different things. You're started talking about "gender orientation" in addition to "sexual orientation."
   
   I think acknowledging that would go a long way toward making people understand each other. Because as it stands - most people don't want to be told "Hey, if that girl pops out a penis, you should be cool with it. You're straight, and women can have penises. If you can't accept that, it's your short sightedness".
   
   That does seem to be the direction the gender folks are going - and good luck with convincing people of that. lol Just as they expect others to accept their way of using words - I think they need to recognize and accept how the overwhelming majority of people use those same words...and account for that.
2. Back to the labels - cool - use them however you want. But another place where it really gives me problems is how it relates to kids - and the fact that there seems to be this trend to allow children to dictate medical decisions because of how they "identify".
   
   If a kid wants to dress however they want to express their "identity" as they see it - more power to you. But I really do not agree with doing things medically to the kid that would have lifelong effects - because of how a 10/11/12 year old kids feels. I think it's a bad idea to let a child dictate to you courses of treatment that impacts upon/interferes with how their healthy body is developing given the potential long term consequences.
   
   It will be interesting to me to see in 30 years just how many of these "non-binary" kids are still "non-binary" at 40-50 years old. And how many of them are going to regret doing things like taking puberty blockers in that light - given the long course of life. Like I said - I wouldn't want to be faced with my kid coming to me at 30 years old saying "My stuff is all malformed and non-functional - how could you let me at 12 dictate the course of action that resulted in that? Your job was to protect me from bad childhood decisions."
   
3. Yes, I do know that there is some degree of variance in actual biological sexual development. But, from my understanding it's relatively rare.
   
   To limit discussion about these things because a small fraction of people actually ARE sexually indeterminate and might be lumped into this discussion unfairly makes about as much sense to me as talking about how there ARE medical conditions that lead to obesity to avoid talking about the guy powering down his third piece of cheesecake after a lovely lasagna dinner. Yes, the one does exist and ought be treated fairly. But the existence and consideration of that one doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority now cannot be discussed.

Just my thoughts on it. lol

 

[A_Thinker]

So tonight I'm perusing over my facebook feed, and I see this post from an old friend of mine talking about how she stopped being friends with someone who called a kid she knew "evil" because they were "non-binary".

In case you're unfamiliar with the term, nonbinary is part of the whole trans thing that's been gaining momentum over the past couple of years. Basically it means that you don't really "identify" as either a boy or a girl. You're your own thing.

Now, I think it's nonsense to call a kid who's questioning things and/or going through whatever phase there may be "evil".

So then some other lady pops in and says "I know 4 kids who are trans"...which is kind of where my thought here is going to start.

In a lot of ways, the whole trans thing gives me problems in a way that most other issues don't...and for a variety of reasons.

1. It seems to be a growing thing. I'm a software developer and one of my jobs is developing mobile apps. Part of my job is to keep abreast of new social media apps - so every now and then I have to see what's popular/download it/evaluate what's good about it/bad about it/etc.
   
   One of the things about social apps is that you see what a lot of people are talking about on the feeds. When you see the LGBT feeds - it seems that there really aren't any more LGB people...lol It's ALLLLLLL T for the most part. It's like every other post is "I'm soooo confused about my gender identity and sexuality". And it's a LOT of those posts.
   
   Then you get some lady saying that she knows 4 kids that are trans? How many kids do you know - where you can end up with 4 being trans? lol Are you a teacher? Because if you're just some lady running around out there with your own kids and getting a sample group from random kids they may know - that's gotta be a pretty high percent. At least more than I would think would be a naturally occurring thing. I've got 2 kids of my own - and I think I at best can identify 10 other kids. Only maybe 3 of which I know their names. lol
   
   But you know 4 kids that are trans?
2. They're a pernicious group - in a way that others aren't. For example, gay people give me no problems. I can understand gay people. I love my wife, she's a woman. Bob over there loves Steve, and he's a man. So far as I can tell - it's the same feeling - applied in a different direction. So I can kinda "get" gay people.
   
   And gay people have never asked for a thing from me or asked me to change how I look at things. You're probably thinking "but gay marriage!!!" - but I don't agree. I've got no problems with gay people walking into a secular courthouse and getting whatever label they want applied to them to be granted the same legal rights straight people have. That gives me no issues - and I do not think that's asking a thing of me.
   
   Trans people aren't the same. In their ideal world - they would have me change how I look at what defines a man and a woman to accommodate them. In other words - I (if I were single) should be open to dating a biological man who "identifies" as a woman...and if I've got problems with the penis being there - then I'm "transphobic". Because - "trans women are real women". So they do want/expect things from others - in a way that's pretty big and foundational - that other groups don't ask.
3. For the life of me - I don't understand what the heck they're talking about. Don't get me wrong. I understand the terminology, the language they use, the arguments they make, etc. But it doesn't make sense to me. Going back to the "understanding gays" part I said above - I'm not gay - but I can envision the gay experience. Meaning - I can understand the feeling of love - and envision it applied just in a different direction.
   
   I DON'T understand the gender stuff - in the slightest.
   
   What do you mean you "feel like a man" or "feel like woman"? The only thing that *I* understand is what it feels like to be me. I happen to be a man. But - I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty if you were to throw my consciousness into RDKirk's experience - that there would be any similarity. Or that if you were to throw my consciousness into MkGal's or TropicalWild's experience - that I would go "Oh wow - this is so much different". Or that RDKirk's way of experiencing the world on a qualitative level (feeling) would be more similar to mine than that of MkGal's or TropicalWild's.
   
   I don't know that there's some distinctive difference between the two sexes where one feels one way and the other feels another. Nobody does. My experience is limited to one thing - myself. So is everyone else's. So the idea that people think they can compare what it feels like to be "this" or "that" doesn't make any sense to me.
   
   What is it (as a biological girl who identifies as a man) exactly that you identify with that's male? Is it how men are culturally expected to behave relative to how women are culturally expected to behave? Is it the clothing? Is it some core "feeling" you think is "male" vs. "female"? I don't get it - and nobody if asked can give a decent answer to that. Most of the time it's some vague stuff like "Well, I remember wondering what it might be like to be a little girl picking flowers as a child" or something like that. Or "I always preferred to play with boys instead of other little girls".

So what exactly then would be the difference between what we used to call being a "tomboy" vs. "nonbinary"? Has society ever been "binary" truly? I'm nearly 50. There were plenty of tomboy girls running around when I was a kid. I guess the difference is that the tomboy girl never really thought "I'm a boy". They'd run, play, be involved in sports, climb trees, do all of the "boy" things, but they still accepted they were a girl.

Heck - my aunt was a tomboy - and she was born in 1916. I have pictures of her running around in torn up pants, t-shirts, etc...much to my grandparent's chagrin. But it was perfectly normal then as well. Literature is full of them - heck - Mark Twain wrote about Hellfire Hotchkiss.

It seems to me that at least on the "girl" side - there's always been an acceptance of bending the gender-rules. Boys - ehhhh - not as much...lol But - that's a different topic altogether.

So it seems to me that a lot of these people are taking what was always within the normal realm - and pretty much blowing it into odd new proportions...and once again...it does pose me problems...because the consequences are different.

I've always thought that I'd like to have a tomboy as a daughter. But ya know, I don't want a tomboy who then comes to me and says "Because I like to climb trees, I'm actually a boy, nature did me wrong, so how about some hormone therapy, dad?" Or... "Because I like to wear pants and don't like to wear dresses, I think you should allow me to be prescribed some puberty blockers."

...and that does seem to be the direction that a lot of this is stuff is headed.

I dunno - what do you think?

The world will goes through many philosophical phases, sometimes too liberal, sometimes too conservative. Society will "try on" many ideas, ... only to discard them at a later point.

The current gender focus is one of these phases, I think.

It's a parent's job to PROTECT their children from the whims of the world (or their own whims). It's also a parent's job to protect their children from others who would call a questioning/exploring child "evil".

Parents have a tough job ...

 

[RDKirk]

The world will goes through many philosophical phases, sometimes too liberal, sometimes too conservative. Society will "try on" many ideas, ... only to discard them at a later point.

The current gender focus is one of these phases, I think.

It's a parent's job to PROTECT their children from the whims of the world (or their own whims). It's also a parent's job to protect their children from others who would call a questioning/exploring child "evil".

Parents have a tough job ...

It's also necessary to look at a bigger picture and get away from seeing social changes, such as they are, with too much America-centrism or even Western-centrism.

Is this stuff really making a dent in world society? Really? Because we're not in an "As America Goes So Goes the World" universe anymore.

 

[Bumble Bee]

Other countries are following suit. I don’t remember which article it was I read, but Germany is now making a third designation in addition to male and female on their official documents for people to mark as being neither

 

[RDKirk]

Other countries are following suit. I don’t remember which article it was I read, but Germany is now making a third designation in addition to male and female on their official documents for people to mark as being neither

But is China following suit? India? South Korea? Japan?

I'd also point out that Germany's decision was based on actual genetic evidence that some people lack a second sex chromosome--only a single X or Y without the second chromosome that makes genetic "male" or "female."

So Germany's decision is not actually about how someone "feels," it's about what people actually genetically are.

 

[DZoolander]

What's interesting to me is the way the dialogue has shifted over the past few decades.

When I was growing up - the prevailing attitude among progressives was "gender" were social constructs that were harmful to all involved - tools to oppress and limit options. So, gender distinctions ought be eschewed in favor of a more androgynous approach to sex. I remember watching Donahue as a kid, and them having episodes about how "if Johnny plays with dolls, it doesn't make him a girl or gay. Playing with dolls doesn't mean anything. He's just as much of a boy as someone who plays with GI Joe."

But that has completely flipped in the past couple of decades. Nowadays Gender distinctions are EVERYTHING - and little Johnny playing with a doll shows that he is in fact a girl. Or at least good evidence of that fact.

 

[FireDragon76]

A couple of things:

1. If people want to tinker with the labels "boy" and "girl" / "man" and "woman", etc...I have no problems with that. If they want to make the labels equate more to "gender" instead of "biological sex" (which is what it has been traditionally understood by most to equate) - I'm cool with that. I'm not a person particularly vested in labels. My only caveat to that is to make sure that everyone is on the same page.
   
   In other words - don't change the words "man" and "woman" to mean more of "the social role they play irrespective of genitalia" - and then talk to people about other topics like sexual preference with those terms in mind without giving them input on the new terms. Most likely - the people you're talking to are not using those words the same way you are.

Sexual orientation is more than being attracted to a particular kind of genitalia. Being attracted to a transperson doesn't make you gay, necessarily. I think its more of a case of stepping away from rigid ideas about gender and sexuality- this doesn't require labels like "pansexual" necessarily, but maybe "open-minded" would be a better term.

I think there are ways to talk about ones preferences that are sensitive to gender minorities and women and their bodies. Even some gay men have been criticized by feminists for saying "vaginas are disgusting", because that goes beyond just stating a preference to making an assertion that denigrates other peoples bodies.

Society is going through alot of cultural changes. Some of what is happening may turn out to be faddish, especially as younger people explore the implications of new ideas, but other changes are likely here to stay.

 

[DZoolander]

Sexual orientation is more than being attracted to a particular kind of genitalia. Being attracted to a transperson doesn't make you gay, necessarily. I think its more of a case of stepping away from rigid ideas about gender and sexuality- this doesn't require labels like "pansexual" necessarily, but maybe "open-minded" would be a better term.

I don't really agree with that. I don't think gender - at least in the way it's being used nowadays/here - has any part of what people traditionally refer to when it comes to sexual orientation. People go to great lengths to differentiate between sex and gender - so I think it's fair to carry that into SEXual orientation.

If you're attracted to those with the same genitalia you have exclusively, you're gay. If you're attracted to either kind of genitalia, you're bisexual. If you're exclusively attracted to the kind other than what you have, you're straight. That's it. No more, no less.

If we want to start talking about gender orientation as a separate concept to cover the kinds of things they talk about when they start using terms like "pansexual" - I'm good with that. Gender-straight, gender-gay, heterogenderal, whatever you want to use... It's all good to me.

 

[Deidre32]

I don't necessarily think it's ''bigoted,'' but I wouldn't shun someone over it. I think being there for people who are struggling with identity issues of any kind, is far better than shunning them or name calling them. I don't know if it's anymore ''evil'' than other areas such as infidelity. I know some Christians who have no problem remaining pals with people who cheat on their spouses, but shun trans or gay people. No one is better than anyone else, imo.

 

[DZoolander]

I don't necessarily think it's ''bigoted,'' but I wouldn't shun someone over it. I think being there for people who are struggling with identity issues of any kind, is far better than shunning them or name calling them. I don't know if it's anymore ''evil'' than other areas such as infidelity. I know some Christians who have no problem remaining pals with people who cheat on their spouses, but shun trans or gay people. No one is better than anyone else, imo.

Oh I totally agree there. I'm not talking about shunning anyone.

My issues stem from what I perceive to be a lack of clarity in language surrounding the issues, certain behaviors that I've seen, and the pressure people seem to face when it comes to allowing medical treatment for children.

 

[Deidre32]

Oh I totally agree there. I'm not talking about shunning anyone.

My issues stem from what I perceive to be a lack of clarity in language surrounding the issues, certain behaviors that I've seen, and the pressure people seem to face when it comes to allowing medical treatment for children.

Oh okay...I was talking about how that person in your OP dealt with it. But, yea...totally think it's wrong to allow children to undergo surgery. Pretty soon, ''children'' won't exist anymore...we will all be adults right out of the womb. It all started with abortion, in my opinion. Once a society makes it legal to take the life of children at any stage of development, everything becomes fair game, in terms of how we as a society, view kids. I read something recently about how some on the left want to make pedophilia legal. Now, that's evil.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So tonight I'm perusing over my facebook feed, and I see this post from an old friend of mine talking about how she stopped being friends with someone who called a kid she knew "evil" because they were "non-binary".

In case you're unfamiliar with the term, nonbinary is part of the whole trans thing that's been gaining momentum over the past couple of years. Basically it means that you don't really "identify" as either a boy or a girl. You're your own thing.

Now, I think it's nonsense to call a kid who's questioning things and/or going through whatever phase there may be "evil".

So then some other lady pops in and says "I know 4 kids who are trans"...which is kind of where my thought here is going to start.

In a lot of ways, the whole trans thing gives me problems in a way that most other issues don't...and for a variety of reasons.

1. It seems to be a growing thing. I'm a software developer and one of my jobs is developing mobile apps. Part of my job is to keep abreast of new social media apps - so every now and then I have to see what's popular/download it/evaluate what's good about it/bad about it/etc.
   
   One of the things about social apps is that you see what a lot of people are talking about on the feeds. When you see the LGBT feeds - it seems that there really aren't any more LGB people...lol It's ALLLLLLL T for the most part. It's like every other post is "I'm soooo confused about my gender identity and sexuality". And it's a LOT of those posts.
   
   Then you get some lady saying that she knows 4 kids that are trans? How many kids do you know - where you can end up with 4 being trans? lol Are you a teacher? Because if you're just some lady running around out there with your own kids and getting a sample group from random kids they may know - that's gotta be a pretty high percent. At least more than I would think would be a naturally occurring thing. I've got 2 kids of my own - and I think I at best can identify 10 other kids. Only maybe 3 of which I know their names. lol
   
   But you know 4 kids that are trans?
2. They're a pernicious group - in a way that others aren't. For example, gay people give me no problems. I can understand gay people. I love my wife, she's a woman. Bob over there loves Steve, and he's a man. So far as I can tell - it's the same feeling - applied in a different direction. So I can kinda "get" gay people.
   
   And gay people have never asked for a thing from me or asked me to change how I look at things. You're probably thinking "but gay marriage!!!" - but I don't agree. I've got no problems with gay people walking into a secular courthouse and getting whatever label they want applied to them to be granted the same legal rights straight people have. That gives me no issues - and I do not think that's asking a thing of me.
   
   Trans people aren't the same. In their ideal world - they would have me change how I look at what defines a man and a woman to accommodate them. In other words - I (if I were single) should be open to dating a biological man who "identifies" as a woman...and if I've got problems with the penis being there - then I'm "transphobic". Because - "trans women are real women". So they do want/expect things from others - in a way that's pretty big and foundational - that other groups don't ask.
3. For the life of me - I don't understand what the heck they're talking about. Don't get me wrong. I understand the terminology, the language they use, the arguments they make, etc. But it doesn't make sense to me. Going back to the "understanding gays" part I said above - I'm not gay - but I can envision the gay experience. Meaning - I can understand the feeling of love - and envision it applied just in a different direction.
   
   I DON'T understand the gender stuff - in the slightest.
   
   What do you mean you "feel like a man" or "feel like woman"? The only thing that *I* understand is what it feels like to be me. I happen to be a man. But - I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty if you were to throw my consciousness into RDKirk's experience - that there would be any similarity. Or that if you were to throw my consciousness into MkGal's or TropicalWild's experience - that I would go "Oh wow - this is so much different". Or that RDKirk's way of experiencing the world on a qualitative level (feeling) would be more similar to mine than that of MkGal's or TropicalWild's.
   
   I don't know that there's some distinctive difference between the two sexes where one feels one way and the other feels another. Nobody does. My experience is limited to one thing - myself. So is everyone else's. So the idea that people think they can compare what it feels like to be "this" or "that" doesn't make any sense to me.
   
   What is it (as a biological girl who identifies as a man) exactly that you identify with that's male? Is it how men are culturally expected to behave relative to how women are culturally expected to behave? Is it the clothing? Is it some core "feeling" you think is "male" vs. "female"? I don't get it - and nobody if asked can give a decent answer to that. Most of the time it's some vague stuff like "Well, I remember wondering what it might be like to be a little girl picking flowers as a child" or something like that. Or "I always preferred to play with boys instead of other little girls".

So what exactly then would be the difference between what we used to call being a "tomboy" vs. "nonbinary"? Has society ever been "binary" truly? I'm nearly 50. There were plenty of tomboy girls running around when I was a kid. I guess the difference is that the tomboy girl never really thought "I'm a boy". They'd run, play, be involved in sports, climb trees, do all of the "boy" things, but they still accepted they were a girl.

Heck - my aunt was a tomboy - and she was born in 1916. I have pictures of her running around in torn up pants, t-shirts, etc...much to my grandparent's chagrin. But it was perfectly normal then as well. Literature is full of them - heck - Mark Twain wrote about Hellfire Hotchkiss.

It seems to me that at least on the "girl" side - there's always been an acceptance of bending the gender-rules. Boys - ehhhh - not as much...lol But - that's a different topic altogether.

So it seems to me that a lot of these people are taking what was always within the normal realm - and pretty much blowing it into odd new proportions...and once again...it does pose me problems...because the consequences are different.

I've always thought that I'd like to have a tomboy as a daughter. But ya know, I don't want a tomboy who then comes to me and says "Because I like to climb trees, I'm actually a boy, nature did me wrong, so how about some hormone therapy, dad?" Or... "Because I like to wear pants and don't like to wear dresses, I think you should allow me to be prescribed some puberty blockers."

...and that does seem to be the direction that a lot of this is stuff is headed.

I dunno - what do you think?

First off...as someone who doesn't agree with a lot of the leftist "gender diversity" or "gender acceptance" stuff that's been peddled around as fact (without any science to back it up)....I'd say the lady's comment about the nonbinary child being "evil" is pretty bigoted. It's a child...with all of a child's feelings and ignorance. It's not inherently evil anymore than it's inherently good. That said...

Yeah...a lot of this gender stuff makes little sense. What bothers me more is that the people who defend it don't seem to have any better understanding of it....in spite of advocating for it. You would think in regards to such a fundamental issue, people would try to understand the issue before advocating one way or another. That's not the case though, because being "tolerant" and "accepting" is far more important than being smart to so many these days.

My whole problem with the "trans" issue is very fundamental. The issue is that a person of one gender feels as if they are really another gender. Seems pretty simple at first....but upon any serious examination, it seems completely impossible. Here's why...

For example, if one is born a man...and believes they feel like a woman....that "feeling" can only come from one of three places...

1. Biological fact. Hormones, genitalia, or some other aspect of genetics is the reason why men feel like men...and women feel like women. If a man feels like a woman, then there should be some indication...at a biological level....which shows why he doesn't feel like a man.

2. The way society treats men/women. If there's a fundamental difference in a culture between the way that men and women are treated...then it stands to reason that our sense of what it means to feel like a man or woman depends upon our experiences and perceptions of how our environment perceives us.

3. A combination of both 1 and 2.

So here's the rub...I've seen some evidence for #1, though nothing conclusive. That's actually understandable, as genetics has turned out to be an extremely complicated field when it tries to describe human behavior. However, the reality is that if #1 is correct....then no one is really a "man who feels like a woman"....they're simply men who don't quite feel like other men for genetic reasons. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that...but it wouldn't be accurate to say that they genuinely "feel like a woman".

If #2 is correct...then it would be nearly impossible for a man or woman to genuinely feel like the other gender....it would require society mistaking them for the other their entire lives, or barring that, some genuine mental defect in self perception. Such defects aren't treated by indulging them....we don't tell an anorexic girl that she is as fat as she "feels" for example. We also don't ask society to do that either.

If it's #3....then it's similarly impossible...for reasons that should now be obvious.

Now, where does that leave us? Pretty much where we started....just a little bit better informed. There are still a small subset of people out there, who for reasons not at all their fault, believe they are genuinely the other gender. If they want to alter their bodies....change their identities....or present themselves to society in any particular way, I've got no problem with that. They have a far more difficult time dealing with this issue than I will ever have...I won't seek to make it harder. What I don't think they can ask though, is for everyone to indulge their personal perceptions of their gender. I may do so as I see appropriate (and if a trans man or woman asked me to refer to them by a certain pronoun or name, I probably would, just to make their life easier). Those who seek to codify their perceptions into laws that the rest of us need to follow or face shame or punishment are flat out ridiculous. My perceptions regarding this issue are no less valid than theirs or anyone else's.

If you understand the basis of the argument I've laid out here... then you understand my position on "non-binary", genderqueer, or any of the other such made up genders. I find them even less likely to be real than a man simply feeling like a woman or vice versa.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh I totally agree there. I'm not talking about shunning anyone.

My issues stem from what I perceive to be a lack of clarity in language surrounding the issues, certain behaviors that I've seen, and the pressure people seem to face when it comes to allowing medical treatment for children.

I think it's appalling that doctors or parents would allow their children to make such drastic decisions before puberty.

I think there's an Australian case where a mother gave her son hormones...illegally...to facilitate his change before puberty. Then when the boy decided he actually felt like a boy in his early teens, she tried to sue the doctor who prescribed her the medication (prescribed for her, not her son).

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't really agree with that. I don't think gender - at least in the way it's being used nowadays/here - has any part of what people traditionally refer to when it comes to sexual orientation. People go to great lengths to differentiate between sex and gender - so I think it's fair to carry that into SEXual orientation.

If you're attracted to those with the same genitalia you have exclusively, you're gay.

Gay men aren't generally attracted to trans women. Aside from possibly having a penis (assuming they have not undergone genital surgery), they aren't what gay men are looking for. Usually gay men are attracted to masculinity.

Are those types of people attracted to trans women bisexual? Not necessarily. There are men that would consider a trans woman a potential sexual partner that do not find other men attractive.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Biological sex is usually male or female.
There are a score of disorders that result in less common results
for more than 1 in 100 people.

• 45, X, also known as Turner syndrome
• 45,X/46,XY mosaicism
• 46, XX/XY
• 47, XXX, also known as Triple X syndrome and trisomy X
• 47, XXY, also known as Klinefelter syndrome
• 47, XYY, has normal phenotype
• 48, XXXX
• 48, XXXY
• 48, XXYY
• 49, XXXXY
• 49, XXXXX
• XX gonadal dysgenesis
• XY gonadal dysgenesis
• XX male syndrome

Gender is partly what we can choose.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
Understanding Gender | Gender Spectrum

I dunno if "genderspectrum.org" is going to be the best place for an honest discussion of the topic. Mainly because of this....

"Identity: our deeply held, internal sense of self as male, female, a blend of both, or neither; who we internally know ourselves to be."

It's the word "know" that's problematic there. If, for example, I know that I'm of the male gender....that implies there is something about being male which can be "known". It's not a matter of opinion. That's all well and good if I am born into the male sex....I can arguably say that I "know" such things from my experiences as a male.

If however, I'm born into the male sex....how could I ever possibly "know" what it's like to be female? I cannot experience anything as a female. I'm not treated as a female. So how can I "know" such a thing? Obviously, I cannot.

Now....I can imagine what it's like to be a female. I can guess about what it's like to be female. I can even pretend to be a female. The thing is....so what? I can imagine what it's like to be a housecat as well, that doesn't mean I can know such things....or even feel them....no matter how good I am at imagining and pretending.

 

[SkyWriting]

Mainly because of this.."Identity: our deeply held, internal sense of self as male, female, a blend of both, or neither; who we internally know ourselves to be."It's the word "know" that's problematic there. If, for example, I know that I'm of the male gender....that implies there is something about being male which can be "known". It's not a matter of opinion. That's all well and good if I am born into the male sex....I can arguably say that I "know" such things from my experiences as a male.If however, I'm born into the male sex....how could I ever possibly "know" what it's like to be female? I cannot experience anything as a female.

Yes it is a matter of opinion. I don't think your a male at all. The way you look, dress, talk to others, touch your hair....you look like all the women I know. You don't even have hair on your back like all the men I know. Or a beard.

So given this.....do you know you are a man anyway? Even though we all say not?