Is this "bigoted" ... or?

[DZoolander]

Oh I got it - lol - just didn't see any reason to clarify what I meant.

 

[DZoolander]

(because I was sure you got my meaning too... No need to ruin someone else's joke )

 

[Tom 1]

(because I was sure you got my meaning too... No need to ruin someone else's joke )

Ahh ok, apologies

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

So tonight I'm perusing over my facebook feed, and I see this post from an old friend of mine talking about how she stopped being friends with someone who called a kid she knew "evil" because they were "non-binary".

In case you're unfamiliar with the term, nonbinary is part of the whole trans thing that's been gaining momentum over the past couple of years. Basically it means that you don't really "identify" as either a boy or a girl. You're your own thing.

Now, I think it's nonsense to call a kid who's questioning things and/or going through whatever phase there may be "evil".

So then some other lady pops in and says "I know 4 kids who are trans"...which is kind of where my thought here is going to start.

In a lot of ways, the whole trans thing gives me problems in a way that most other issues don't...and for a variety of reasons.

1. It seems to be a growing thing. I'm a software developer and one of my jobs is developing mobile apps. Part of my job is to keep abreast of new social media apps - so every now and then I have to see what's popular/download it/evaluate what's good about it/bad about it/etc.
   
   One of the things about social apps is that you see what a lot of people are talking about on the feeds. When you see the LGBT feeds - it seems that there really aren't any more LGB people...lol It's ALLLLLLL T for the most part. It's like every other post is "I'm soooo confused about my gender identity and sexuality". And it's a LOT of those posts.
   
   Then you get some lady saying that she knows 4 kids that are trans? How many kids do you know - where you can end up with 4 being trans? lol Are you a teacher? Because if you're just some lady running around out there with your own kids and getting a sample group from random kids they may know - that's gotta be a pretty high percent. At least more than I would think would be a naturally occurring thing. I've got 2 kids of my own - and I think I at best can identify 10 other kids. Only maybe 3 of which I know their names. lol
   
   But you know 4 kids that are trans?
2. They're a pernicious group - in a way that others aren't. For example, gay people give me no problems. I can understand gay people. I love my wife, she's a woman. Bob over there loves Steve, and he's a man. So far as I can tell - it's the same feeling - applied in a different direction. So I can kinda "get" gay people.
   
   And gay people have never asked for a thing from me or asked me to change how I look at things. You're probably thinking "but gay marriage!!!" - but I don't agree. I've got no problems with gay people walking into a secular courthouse and getting whatever label they want applied to them to be granted the same legal rights straight people have. That gives me no issues - and I do not think that's asking a thing of me.
   
   Trans people aren't the same. In their ideal world - they would have me change how I look at what defines a man and a woman to accommodate them. In other words - I (if I were single) should be open to dating a biological man who "identifies" as a woman...and if I've got problems with the penis being there - then I'm "transphobic". Because - "trans women are real women". So they do want/expect things from others - in a way that's pretty big and foundational - that other groups don't ask.
3. For the life of me - I don't understand what the heck they're talking about. Don't get me wrong. I understand the terminology, the language they use, the arguments they make, etc. But it doesn't make sense to me. Going back to the "understanding gays" part I said above - I'm not gay - but I can envision the gay experience. Meaning - I can understand the feeling of love - and envision it applied just in a different direction.
   
   I DON'T understand the gender stuff - in the slightest.
   
   What do you mean you "feel like a man" or "feel like woman"? The only thing that *I* understand is what it feels like to be me. I happen to be a man. But - I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty if you were to throw my consciousness into RDKirk's experience - that there would be any similarity. Or that if you were to throw my consciousness into MkGal's or TropicalWild's experience - that I would go "Oh wow - this is so much different". Or that RDKirk's way of experiencing the world on a qualitative level (feeling) would be more similar to mine than that of MkGal's or TropicalWild's.
   
   I don't know that there's some distinctive difference between the two sexes where one feels one way and the other feels another. Nobody does. My experience is limited to one thing - myself. So is everyone else's. So the idea that people think they can compare what it feels like to be "this" or "that" doesn't make any sense to me.
   
   What is it (as a biological girl who identifies as a man) exactly that you identify with that's male? Is it how men are culturally expected to behave relative to how women are culturally expected to behave? Is it the clothing? Is it some core "feeling" you think is "male" vs. "female"? I don't get it - and nobody if asked can give a decent answer to that. Most of the time it's some vague stuff like "Well, I remember wondering what it might be like to be a little girl picking flowers as a child" or something like that. Or "I always preferred to play with boys instead of other little girls".

So what exactly then would be the difference between what we used to call being a "tomboy" vs. "nonbinary"? Has society ever been "binary" truly? I'm nearly 50. There were plenty of tomboy girls running around when I was a kid. I guess the difference is that the tomboy girl never really thought "I'm a boy". They'd run, play, be involved in sports, climb trees, do all of the "boy" things, but they still accepted they were a girl.

Heck - my aunt was a tomboy - and she was born in 1916. I have pictures of her running around in torn up pants, t-shirts, etc...much to my grandparent's chagrin. But it was perfectly normal then as well. Literature is full of them - heck - Mark Twain wrote about Hellfire Hotchkiss.

It seems to me that at least on the "girl" side - there's always been an acceptance of bending the gender-rules. Boys - ehhhh - not as much...lol But - that's a different topic altogether.

So it seems to me that a lot of these people are taking what was always within the normal realm - and pretty much blowing it into odd new proportions...and once again...it does pose me problems...because the consequences are different.

I've always thought that I'd like to have a tomboy as a daughter. But ya know, I don't want a tomboy who then comes to me and says "Because I like to climb trees, I'm actually a boy, nature did me wrong, so how about some hormone therapy, dad?" Or... "Because I like to wear pants and don't like to wear dresses, I think you should allow me to be prescribed some puberty blockers."

...and that does seem to be the direction that a lot of this is stuff is headed.

I dunno - what do you think?

In reality, trans folks are a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population- and I don't really think it is increasing. I live in the Seattle area and a co-worker of mine has a 14 yr old son. He has tons of friends who are "something", but it is mostly drama.

Because (at least in some areas) it is ok to be different, these kids change their identities like fashion trends. These kids aren't receiving medical care or transitioning- most of them are posing. Craving attention.

Honestly, I don't get the trans thing either. I identify as a female person now because that is at least specific and not open to interpretation. I have to say- the only time I "feel" like a woman is when I am experiencing things that no surgery or hormones will provide to someone not born with female anatomy.

Honestly, I think the trans issue causes such problems because most people don't feel a strong attachment to their gender. A lot of trans folks seem attracted to gender expressions that are stereotypical. They perform masculinity and femininity in a way that most cisgender folks don't. So when someone says they always felt like a girl and they perform femininity like they walked out of a 50s sitcom- it's almost like someone is being made fun of. I mean, if I'm a woman and you say that it isn't about anatomy, well ok. But it sure isn't about wearing heels, dresses, long hair, make-up, or being pretty either. There is really no definition now for woman that is logically consistent

BTW, LGB gets lots of negativity for being transphobic when lots of us (I'm Bi) don't understand why they hooked themselves to our train. So while straight people might not hear about the arguments (a lot of it is academic or in activist circles) it happens.

 

[DZoolander]

Honestly, I think the trans issue causes such problems because most people don't feel a strong attachment to their gender. A lot of trans folks seem attracted to gender expressions that are stereotypical. They perform masculinity and femininity in a way that most cisgender folks don't. So when someone says they always felt like a girl and they perform femininity like they walked out of a 50s sitcom- it's almost like someone is being made fun of. I mean, if I'm a woman and you say that it isn't about anatomy, well ok. But it sure isn't about wearing heels, dresses, long hair, make-up, or being pretty either. There is really no definition now for woman that is logically consistent

BTW, LGB gets lots of negativity for being transphobic when lots of us (I'm Bi) don't understand why they hooked themselves to our train. So while straight people might not hear about the arguments (a lot of it is academic or in activist circles) it happens.

I agree with that. Like, I'm a guy. But I give absolutely 0% thought to my "guyness". I don't worry about what it means to be a "guy". I don't sit back and go "Wow, look at me fulfilling my guyness, doing guy things, just enjoying being a guy. Thank God I identify as a guy, because I like guy clothes, I like this guy thing and that guy thing", etc. I mean, that kind of stuff simply isn't a part of my reality.

Why do I dress the way I do (as a "guy")? Why do I wear dockers? Why do I wear button up dress shirts or polos? Because that's what I've always worn and what gets me social acceptance. That's what people react well to. No more, no less. It's not some deeply affirming expression/thing of my "gender".

As for what it means to "feel like a guy" - I have no idea what anyone is talking about there. Like I said in an earlier post - if you were to somehow be able to temporarily imprint RDKirk's consciousness onto mine - and then imprint MkGal or TropicalWild's consciousness onto mine - I can't say with any degree of certainty that RDKirk's consciousness would somehow be more familiar to me than the ladies'. That I would look at RDKirk's and go "Yeah, that feels more like home than the others".

I have no frame of reference to make that kind of statement or hold any such belief. I have only one experience I'm familiar with, mine. How that compares to the experience of anyone else I have no idea - and how that might relate to "gender" is even more removed.

So a lot of it is exactly as you've described (to me at least) - highly affected behaviors mimicking stereotypes of what they think that "gender" ought embody.

Then you get into the stuff about how they have hooked themselves to the LGB train - and the ever growing list of letters. LGBTQIA+.

I understand the sexual preference stuff (LGB). But I can't help but think that everyone else on that list has a completely separate set of goals than the LGB/sexual orientation folks. The dilution isn't going to help the LGB folks (IMHO) - and eventually the gender folks will end up cannibalizing the movement from the inside.

What started out as sexual orientation stuff has now become "Anything but stereotypically heterosexual". I mean, now they're throwing in things like asexual, "demisexual" (meaning that you have to have an emotional attachment to have sex with someone... really? That's a thing that needs to be thrown into the LGB mix?), etc.. It's like everyone NEEDS to be recognized, no matter what it is. lol

 

[RDKirk]

I agree with that. Like, I'm a guy. But I give absolutely 0% thought to my "guyness". I don't worry about what it means to be a "guy". I don't sit back and go "Wow, look at me fulfilling my guyness, doing guy things, just enjoying being a guy. Thank God I identify as a guy, because I like guy clothes, I like this guy thing and that guy thing", etc. I mean, that kind of stuff simply isn't a part of my reality.

Why do I dress the way I do (as a "guy")? Why do I wear dockers? Why do I wear button up dress shirts or polos? Because that's what I've always worn and what gets me social acceptance. That's what people react well to. No more, no less. It's not some deeply affirming expression/thing of my "gender".

As for what it means to "feel like a guy" - I have no idea what anyone is talking about there. Like I said in an earlier post - if you were to somehow be able to temporarily imprint RDKirk's consciousness onto mine - and then imprint MkGal or TropicalWild's consciousness onto mine - I can't say with any degree of certainty that RDKirk's consciousness would somehow be more familiar to me than the ladies'. That I would look at RDKirk's and go "Yeah, that feels more like home than the others".

I have no frame of reference to make that kind of statement or hold any such belief. I have only one experience I'm familiar with, mine. How that compares to the experience of anyone else I have no idea - and how that might relate to "gender" is even more removed.

So a lot of it is exactly as you've described (to me at least) - highly affected behaviors mimicking stereotypes of what they think that "gender" ought embody.

I think there are some "guy" things and some "gal" things specific to sex. It may not seem so clear with regard to guys, but for sure, there are biological distinctions (organ-based and hormone-based) clearly specific to women that affect how they feel as women.

When your daughter hits puberty, you'll see her going through things you didn't. When your wife was pregnant, she went through things you didn't. When your wife hits menopause, you will see her going through things you aren't.

You'll just have to say, "Well, that's different" and certainly sympathize because you love them, but you won't really know how they feel, and you won't be changed the way they were changed because you didn't go through those same experiences.

And I'm convinced that when biology hits women as a group that hard, we men who don't go through such things are categorically different in certain ways because we as a group lack that experience.

If someone argues that experience doesn't change a person, I'm not going to buy it, and if someone argues that a shared group experience doesn't change people in common ways as group, then I (and I have a family full of men who have combat PTSD) won't buy that either.

Then you get into the stuff about how they have hooked themselves to the LGB train - and the ever growing list of letters. LGBTQIA+.

I understand the sexual preference stuff (LGB). But I can't help but think that everyone else on that list has a completely separate set of goals than the LGB/sexual orientation folks. The dilution isn't going to help the LGB folks (IMHO) - and eventually the gender folks will end up cannibalizing the movement from the inside.

What started out as sexual orientation stuff has now become "Anything but stereotypically heterosexual". I mean, now they're throwing in things like asexual, "demisexual" (meaning that you have to have an emotional attachment to have sex with someone... really? That's a thing that needs to be thrown into the LGB mix?), etc.. It's like everyone NEEDS to be recognized, no matter what it is. lol

Yes, I agree with that.

I find that, seemingly paradoxical--but not paradoxical when you think about it--it's transexuals that prove gender is a real thing, not simply a product of socialization.

 

[DZoolander]

I think there are some "guy" things and some "gal" things specific to sex. It may not seem so clear with regard to guys, but for sure, there are biological distinctions (organ-based and hormone-based) clearly specific to women that affect how they feel as women.

When your daughter hits puberty, you'll see her going through things you didn't. When your wife was pregnant, she went through things you didn't. When your wife hits menopause, you will see her going through things you aren't.

You'll just have to say, "Well, that's different" and certainly sympathize because you love them, but you won't really know how they feel, and you won't be changed the way they were changed because you didn't go through those same experiences.

And I'm convinced that when biology hits women as a group that hard, we men who don't go through such things are categorically different in certain ways because we as a group lack that experience.

If someone argues that experience doesn't change a person, I'm not going to buy it, and if someone argues that a shared group experience doesn't change people in common ways as group, then I (and I have a family full of men who have combat PTSD) won't buy that either.

I agree - but I can only sympathize to some degree or other. There may be things thing truly ARE different between the sexes - but yeah - it's outside of the scope of what I or anyone else can *know*. And they are experiential things that you'd have to actually have gone through to go from sympathy to empathy.

Like on the "guy" side of the aisle - I remember going through puberty and a set of feelings that went along with that. There's a point where your body goes from producing small amounts of testosterone - to just a glut of it - and the feelings that come with that. I remember in my early teens always feeling kinda hot, itchy and greasy. A sort of jittery-ness, nervousness, sometimes elevated heartrate, etc.

I've always thought *that* might be something different about the "male" experience. But I have no idea.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I think there are some "guy" things and some "gal" things specific to sex. It may not seem so clear with regard to guys, but for sure, there are biological distinctions (organ-based and hormone-based) clearly specific to women that affect how they feel as women.

When your daughter hits puberty, you'll see her going through things you didn't. When your wife was pregnant, she went through things you didn't. When your wife hits menopause, you will see her going through things you aren't.

You'll just have to say, "Well, that's different" and certainly sympathize because you love them, but you won't really know how they feel, and you won't be changed the way they were changed because you didn't go through those same experiences.

And I'm convinced that when biology hits women as a group that hard, we men who don't go through such things are categorically different in certain ways because we as a group lack that experience.

If someone argues that experience doesn't change a person, I'm not going to buy it, and if someone argues that a shared group experience doesn't change people in common ways as group, then I (and I have a family full of men who have combat PTSD) won't buy that either.



Yes, I agree with that.

I find that, seemingly paradoxical--but not paradoxical when you think about it--it's transexuals that prove gender is a real thing, not simply a product of socialization.

Actually, what you are referring to is where my problem lies. All of the "gal" things I have experienced are directly related to biology. I don't feel like a woman without the biology. Transexuals claim the gender without the biology.

What is gender then? A socially acceptable set of behaviors that change according to culture/region/time? Is that really something you can feel?

 

[snoochface]

Actually, what you are referring to is where my problem lies. All of the "gal" things I have experienced are directly related to biology. I don't feel like a woman without the biology. Transexuals claim the gender without the biology.

What is gender then? A socially acceptable set of behaviors that change according to culture/region/time? Is that really something you can feel?

Is that really something a 5 year old can feel, too? People who say their pre-school child told them they "are" another gender based on those factors - it seems extremely unlikely the child would have any sense of what they are even talking about at that age.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

Is that really something a 5 year old can feel, too? People who say their pre-school child told them they "are" another gender based on those factors - it seems extremely unlikely the child would have any sense of what they are even talking about at that age.

That's something I have always questioned. I think the child just wants to do something/be something that they've been told "belongs" to the other sex. I would much rather have my son wear dresses or have long hair, as a boy, than have him think he necessarily needs to be a girl.

At 5- gender is appearance and activities.

 

[RDKirk]

Is that really something a 5 year old can feel, too? People who say their pre-school child told them they "are" another gender based on those factors - it seems extremely unlikely the child would have any sense of what they are even talking about at that age.

There have been studies that have discovered a number of highly sex-correlated behaviors from infancy through toddlerhood far earlier than such behaviors could have been observed from parents or other social contacts.

And in a couple of cases, some of those behaviors have even been found to be sex-correlated in other primates. IOW, there are certain stereotypical male behaviors that occur in both humans and apes and certain stereotypical female behaviors that occur in both human and apes.

 

[Albion]

...and that does seem to be the direction that a lot of this is stuff is headed.

I dunno - what do you think?

For one thing, I believe that we have to start saying NO to the relentless demands for everyone to use terms that were just invented by someone or other yesterday.

A few changes were understandable and probably reasonable in prior years, but we have long since passed that point.

(With apologies to my ElgeebeeteecueayI friends everywhere!)

 

[RDKirk]

For one thing, I believe that we have to start saying NO to the relentless demands for everyone to use terms that were just invented by someone or other yesterday.

A few changes were understandable and probably reasonable in prior years, but we have long since passed that point.

(With apologies to my ElgeebeeteecueayI friends everywhere!)

That will happen.

Grammar does not increase in complexity over time, it decreases.

So one gender-neutralizing change in English grammar will happen: Using "their" as an all-purpose gender neutral pronoun even though it frequently creates confusion, depending heavily on its presumed context.

That was already happening because fewer and fewer people who learned English had firmly learned the additional complexity of using "their" properly. Grammar decreases in complexity, rules fall away.

Deliberate gender-neutralization has only made that happen more quickly, but it was certainly already happening.

But trying to add additional pronouns with complex context-specific rules is not going to happen outside of a very narrow user base (like people who speak Esperanto). Grammar does not increase in complexity.

People learning English as a second language are not going to adopt new grammar complexities that most native users don't even know.