Biblical Creation vs Evolution- the age of the Earth

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Someone else replied to this earlier as well. The dating was performed on different parts of the same granite. But granites arent necessarily homogenous . More specifically, zircon inclusions within granite can give older ages than the granite itself.

To explain, it would be like someone making a Hershey chocolate chip on Tuesday. Putting the chocolate chip in cookie dough on Wednesday, then dating the full baked cookie and the chocolate chip and saying "look the cookie is two separate ages!".

Well that's correct. Because the cookie as a whole is made of different aged pieces.

great post thanks. But this would show contamination than correct? not a closed system.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Could you source this? Dare I ask for a source that doesn't come from a young earth creationists?

R. E. Taylor and J. Southon, “Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds,” Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 259 (2007): 282–287.

 

[Job 33:6]

great post thanks. But this would show contamination than correct? not a closed system.

Contamination is a term we use for something unnaturally included into a sample. Maybe by human error.

You can't say the same for something like a zircon contained within a rock.

This is just an inclusion. And inclusions can be encompassed within isolated crystalline lattices that are unaltered by the environment.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Could it not also indicate chronic dishonesty when the presenter has had their arguments refuted, yet never recants the claims? Seriously, some of this stuff is mindbogglingly easy to refute. Even just a little logic and a well stated followup question often suffices. But it takes integrity on the part of the presenter to recant. It was this lack of integrity which I had a serious problem with when I was a YEC.

I dont disagree if we assume we believe what we want and believe an refutation we like. You can find multiple back and fourths on any subject on the internet and chose to believe what you like. Truth i find is at the end of it. But if you believe my stuff has been refuted by all means please exspalin why, i can show you the responses and we can see the end of it through.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Please cite one scientific paper in which a polystrate tree goes through multiple layers which date vastly different from one another. Just one.

For this paper to count, it must show the radiometric dates for at least a couple of the layers it passes through.

Heck, you can even show me a paper in which a CREATIONIST actually did some research of his or her own, and had the layers surrounding the tree dated.

You won't find one. Because it's stupid. Scientists are not that stupid. They know about polystrate fossils, and it poses no threat to radiometric dating. Because we've known the answer to such a quandary for OVER 100 years. Even before radiometric dating existed, we knew the explanation, and how it is compatible with an old earth.

https://creation.com/polystrate-fossils-evidence-for-a-young-earth
http://www.icr.org/article/classic-polystrate-fossil/

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Yet another lie and even delusion from your source, Tolkien R.R.J.
The book by Derek Ager is The New Catastrophism: The Importance of the Rare Event in Geological History (published in 1993) and is on exceptions to "strict Lyellian uniformitarianism". The examples of the exceptions include colliding continents and asteroid impacts over the past 4.6 billion years. This is geology supporting an old Earth thus the deluded part of quoting the book.

You are citing a geologist whose examples of sudden geological events moved geologists away from strict Lyellian uniformitarianism! You would know that if you ever read a reliable source on modern uniformitarianism


Derek Ager was anti-YEC and explicitly did not want his words abused by creationists. Ager's Opinion of Young-Earth Creationists by Dr. Kevin R. Henke

and? what are the facts? uniformtarnism is false, i am glad we agree. Poly strait fossils prove catastrophic processes.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots a YEC delusion that continent only erode and the North American continent is about 10 million years old.
Explaining the deluded part first - this is young Earth creationism that believes the Earth is 6000 years old citing evidence that the Earth is millions of years old! They are stating that their erosion rate gives that the North American continent is about 10 million years old with older continent ages also calculated.

They assume the erosion rate is constant.
They deny mountain building as if the Himalayas and volcanoes did not exist doh and other continent building processes, e.g. lava flows, delta and continental shelf buildup.
They lie about the ages of modern continents. The modern continents formed from the breakup of Pangaea about 175 million years ago. There are rock formations within continents dated back to the early Earth.

The Erosion of Continents as a Creationist Clock
That article cites an old Earth creationist not denying or lying abut geology: "Ross, Hugh. 2004. A Matter of Days. Colorado Springs: NavPress, 186-187 p.".

Just as radiometric dating assumes constant rates. But as pointed out earlier, it does not include major storms and other rare events that up erosion.


Nobody denies continents rising or new lava this has been discussed already, please read my op even.

So once more, why deny science and observation? because you read an anti creation article that misrepresented creation arguments? or more likely

“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.”
Malcolm Maggeridge

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Answers your questions....

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Conservapedia: Arguments for a recent creation is a handy source for the debunking of some YEC fantasies about the age of the Earth.

great sources for debunking old earth fantasies.


https://www.amazon.com/Earths-Catastrophic-Past-Geology-Creation/dp/0932766943
https://www.amazon.com/Young-Earth-History-Present-Future/dp/0890511748
https://creation.com/qa
https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/
http://www.icr.org/homepage/

 

[Job 33:6]

R. E. Taylor and J. Southon, “Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds,” Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 259 (2007): 282–287.

This seems deceptive. The article is discussing background readings created by instrumentation. It isn't talking about naturally occurring C14 in ancient diamonds.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Please read my op before you respond to it, usually a good idea.
...

Ignorance that I have not read his Gish gallop of ignorant and lying YEC claims. More irrelevant quoting of those claims from his OP as "replies".

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: What are the other geological process that make "erosion rates of continents" into a lie (hint: Himalayas, Andes, the country of New Zealand).

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: The YEC claim that the sea cannot contain its measured salt is unsupported and starts with a probable "maximum possible age of 62 million years""

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: You cited a lie that astronomers consider spiral arms to be persistent physical features when that was discarded in 1926.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Did not understand the YEC lie about the sediment accumulation in oceans filling them up.

Apparently we don't disagree on:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots an "overall decay" of the Earth's magnetic field lie
Somehow I doubt this is an acknowledgement of the lie because the magnetic field cycles.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "based on faith" lie about the origins of comets.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A lie that uniformitarianism means population growth is constant.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Explain how fossils of species that died out > 65 million years ago can contain soft tissue that is < 6000 years old ?

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An ignorant demand to not read a source containing and citing science (TalkOrigins).

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An stupid and irrelevant Yahoo search for spiral galaxies that produces images of spiral galaxies!
Stupid and irrelevant because

• We know that spiral galaxies with their arms exist!
• I gave him the science that the spiral arms have not been considered to be persistent physical features since 1926.
• The YEC lie he parrots starts with the winding problem that was found in 1926 !
  That is the lie he is parroting. Astronomers do not try to explain the arms as persistent physical features because conservation of angular momentum makes the wind into the center until they are not arms within a few galactic rotations. Astronomers have other working explanations.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious faith on an old Earth" lie.
My profile clearly states that I am an atheist. I do not have a religious faith in anything.
I can count to 55,000 (visual ice core layers) or to deny the ability to count annual layers in ice cores.
I am not stupid enough to do a simplistic calculation that the Moon has existed for over a billion years and declare that the Earth must be 6000 years old. etc.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Thus you support my argument" lie about soft dinosaur tissue.
Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. Thus every part of a dinosaur fossil must be > 65 65 million years old. That includes the rare preservation of soft tissue. That debunks his argument.
We even have a credible mechanism for that preservation.
A role for iron and oxygen chemistry in preserving soft tissues, cells and molecules from deep time
Soak ostrich blood vessels in water and they decay in 3 days. Soak ostrich blood vessels in a hemoglobin (iron rich) solution and they remain intact for more than 2 years.

ETA: A support for your argument would carbon dating the soft tissue to show that it is < 6000 years old! Odd how no YEC has done that.

 

[Job 33:6]

I am not sure you are getting this. Carbon-14 is found in ancient samples including diamonds and fossils long after it should have decayed away. Thus their has not been time for them to decay away and the earth or those samples claimed to be over a billion years in age, are in fact young.

Also, this article doesn't say anything about C 14 being found in fossils at all. And it doesn't say anything about naturally occurrin C14 in diamonds either

 

[RealityCheck01]

As RC acuratey stated

"The TalkOrigins Archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another. The primary reason for this archive's existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences."
...

As I accurately stated
8 Augist 2018 Justatruthseeker: A set of "hack" insults and lies rather than addressing the linked science.

8 August 2018 Justatruthseeker: Ignorance of English - the archive articles have to provide responses to FAQS from mainstream science.
That is a misinterpretation as articles that have to be published in peer reviewed, scientific journals. What is published in peer reviewed, scientific journals is research and review papers.

8 August 2018 Justatruthseeker: A "hack journalists" lie, the articles were written by TalkOrigins members with unspecified occupations.

8 August 2018 Justatruthseeker: Ignorant fantasy about the "very last part of the papers linked to"
Claim CD410
The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global (PDF)
A correct quote about the snow accumulation between the Greenland coast and interior. But the context is the question:

How could some 250 feet of snow in the area of GISP2 cover a period of c. 250 years while 250 feet of snow in the area of the Lost Squadron planes only covers c. 50 years?

The answer is that there is greater snowfall on the coast especially where the planes landed:

“The World War II planes landed in one of the regions of Greenland where snow accumulates fastest.”

The truth one last time for Justatruthseeker:
The ice core layers that are counted are not any arbitrary layers. They are the dark layers that are colored by dust depositing during summers. When the layers are so compressed that the dark layers overlap, we can use their physical properties to separate them.

No one would argue that there were X summers in the interior of Greenland and a different number on the coast !

8 August 2018 Justatruthseeker: An irrelevant "want you to believe the area has only received 1 foot of snow forever" lie.
The amount of snow that falls (unless it is zero!) does not stop an annual deposit of dusty snow that for dark ice core layers.
The average ~1 foot per year at the GISP2 site is an average!
"46 Average annual snow accumulation at Summit for the last 100
years is .24 ± 0.05 m; and over the last 75 years just .21 m (D. A.
Meese, et. al., “The Accumulation Record from the GISP2 Core as
an Indicator of Climate Change throughout the Holocene,” Science
266 [1994]: 1681–2)"
The average ~7 feet per year at the crash site is an average over the 50 years since the crash.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots a YEC delusion about the recession of the Moon from the Earth.
Explaining the deluded part first - this is young Earth creationism that believes the Earth is 6000 years old calculating that the Moon and presumably the Earth is at least 1.37 billion years old!

Claim CE110: Because of tidal friction, the moon is receding, and the earth's rotation is slowing down, at rates too fast for the earth to be billions of years old.

So you are suggesting that constant rates are false only when it goes against an old earth? but no even when their is observation to think so with radiometric dating?

However this rescuing devise and speculation does not solve it. It does not guarantee it would help and if the continents were larger ,it would hurt. It would have to be vastly different as well. A great book here using evolutions sources

https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/taking-back-astronomy/?sku=10-2-252&

shows studies in tidal rhythmites show that over geological ages it has been pretty constant. Also there is no evidence of extreme tides if the moon were much closer in earth history.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

You make a mistake about the burden of proof, Tolkien R.R.J.
You are claiming a young Earth. The burden is on you to provide evidence for that young Earth. What you have provided is a Gish gallop of ignorance and lies from YEC source(s).

You claimed that the Grand Canyon was evidence for a young Earth.

KomatiiteBIF explained how a "...many were folded while still wet." claim was completely wrong.

Now it is your turn.

see op and my responses to BIF.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Contamination is a term we use for something unnaturally included into a sample. Maybe by human error.

You can't say the same for something like a zircon contained within a rock.

This is just an inclusion. And inclusions can be encompassed within isolated crystalline lattices that are unaltered by the environment.

i meant contamination in nature, the rock was contaminated. But i get what your saying thanks.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Ignorance that I have not read his Gish gallop of ignorant and lying YEC claims. More irrelevant quoting of those claims from his OP as "replies".

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: What are the other geological process that make "erosion rates of continents" into a lie (hint: Himalayas, Andes, the country of New Zealand).

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: The YEC claim that the sea cannot contain its measured salt is unsupported and starts with a probable "maximum possible age of 62 million years""

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: You cited a lie that astronomers consider spiral arms to be persistent physical features when that was discarded in 1926.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Did not understand the YEC lie about the sediment accumulation in oceans filling them up.

Apparently we don't disagree on:
6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Parrots an "overall decay" of the Earth's magnetic field lie
Somehow I doubt this is an acknowledgement of the lie because the magnetic field cycles.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "based on faith" lie about the origins of comets.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A lie that uniformitarianism means population growth is constant.

6 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: Explain how fossils of species that died out > 65 million years ago can contain soft tissue that is < 6000 years old ?

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An ignorant demand to not read a source containing and citing science (TalkOrigins).

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: An stupid and irrelevant Yahoo search for spiral galaxies that produces images of spiral galaxies!
Stupid and irrelevant because

• We know that spiral galaxies with their arms exist!
• I gave him the science that the spiral arms have not been considered to be persistent physical features since 1926.
• The YEC lie he parrots starts with the winding problem that was found in 1926 !
  That is the lie he is parroting. Astronomers do not try to explain the arms as persistent physical features because conservation of angular momentum makes the wind into the center until they are not arms within a few galactic rotations. Astronomers have other working explanations.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "religious faith on an old Earth" lie.
My profile clearly states that I am an atheist. I do not have a religious faith in anything.
I can count to 55,000 (visual ice core layers) or to deny the ability to count annual layers in ice cores.
I am not stupid enough to do a simplistic calculation that the Moon has existed for over a billion years and declare that the Earth must be 6000 years old. etc.

8 August 2018 Tolkien R.R.J: A "Thus you support my argument" lie about soft dinosaur tissue.
Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. Thus every part of a dinosaur fossil must be > 65 65 million years old. That includes the rare preservation of soft tissue. That debunks his argument.
We even have a credible mechanism for that preservation.
A role for iron and oxygen chemistry in preserving soft tissues, cells and molecules from deep time
Soak ostrich blood vessels in water and they decay in 3 days. Soak ostrich blood vessels in a hemoglobin (iron rich) solution and they remain intact for more than 2 years.

I appreciate the religious fervor, but your posts are very hard to read could you please use the quote tags? it was hard to find anything that actually addressed what i said. Could you please retype for me?

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Also, this article doesn't say anything about C 14 being found in fossils at all. And it doesn't say anything about naturally occurrin C14 in diamonds either
It doesn't even mention fossils at all.

Did i give the wrong link?

For some years creation scientists have been doing their own investigation of radiocarbon in fossils. Pieces of fossilized wood in Oligocene, Eocene, Cretaceous, Jurassic, Triassic, and Permian rock layers supposedly 32–250 million years old all contain measurable radiocarbon, equivalent to “ages” of 20,700 to 44,700 years (Figures 3–5).5 6 7 8 910 11 (Creation geologists believe that with careful recalibration, even these extremely “young” time periods would be fewer than 10,000 years.)

Similarly, carefully sampled pieces of coal from ten U.S. coal beds, ranging from Eocene to Pennsylvanian and supposedly 40–320 million years old, all contained similar radiocarbon levels equivalent to “ages” of 48,000 to 50,000 years.12 Even fossilized ammonite shells found alongside fossilized wood in a Cretaceous layer, supposedly 112–120 million years old, contained measurable radiocarbon equivalent to “ages” of 36,400 to 48,710 years (Figure 5)
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/carbon-14/carbon-14-in-fossils-and-diamonds/

 

[Job 33:6]

Did i give the wrong link?

For some years creation scientists have been doing their own investigation of radiocarbon in fossils. Pieces of fossilized wood in Oligocene, Eocene, Cretaceous, Jurassic, Triassic, and Permian rock layers supposedly 32–250 million years old all contain measurable radiocarbon, equivalent to “ages” of 20,700 to 44,700 years (Figures 3–5).5 6 7 8 910 11 (Creation geologists believe that with careful recalibration, even these extremely “young” time periods would be fewer than 10,000 years.)

Similarly, carefully sampled pieces of coal from ten U.S. coal beds, ranging from Eocene to Pennsylvanian and supposedly 40–320 million years old, all contained similar radiocarbon levels equivalent to “ages” of 48,000 to 50,000 years.12 Even fossilized ammonite shells found alongside fossilized wood in a Cretaceous layer, supposedly 112–120 million years old, contained measurable radiocarbon equivalent to “ages” of 36,400 to 48,710 years (Figure 5)
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/carbon-14/carbon-14-in-fossils-and-diamonds/

Did you actually read the article?

See this is the problem, youre reading these random young earth creationist articles rather than reading the actual research.

 

[Job 33:6]

@Tolkien R.R.J

R. E. Taylor and J. Southon, “Use of Natural Diamonds to Monitor 14C AMS Instrument Backgrounds,” Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 259 (2007): 282–287.

This^ is what you sourced and this is what you should be reading. You should be reading the purpose of the research, and their conclusions.

They did not have any naturally occuring C14 in diamonds or fossils.

I stand corrected in that the article does describe studies done with petrified wood. It still does not describe naturally occuring C14 in ancient petrified wood however, nor in diamonds.

The article was a study regarding background AMS readings, just as the title suggests. "AMS Instrument Backgrounds"