Predestination is based on Free Will

[Halbhh]

If:
God is outside of time, "foreknowledge" means what?
I get a kick out of the Calvinists saying God can't know unless he predestines. That's a very weak view of God's omniscience. God being omniscient means he knows all possibilities in all possible futures before deciding anything.
Let me toss this into the mix: Perhaps the whole predestine bit is actually looking backwards, not forwards. Let me explain: God knew people in times past, such as Abraham, in other words they were God's chosen friends. He knew them and chose to let them be part of his plan. The whole reason Paul keeps saying this is to show us that God keeps his promises. It's not a predetermined blueprint at all, it's saying in essence "See how God brings to completion the plans he had in others lives in the past, in spite of themselves and their sins and problems? He will do the same for you, if you trust him."

I gained more reading through Genesis again to see how repeatedly and deeply Abraham is tested. More profoundly and more difficult tests than almost anyone could pass. So his faith was remarkable. That testing is so much. (Not an all-at-once like Job, but difficult stuff like a impossible seeming promise delayed for year after year after year, so that every kind of ordinary common sense says: 'not going to happen', yet still Abraham kept faith, and then came even harder testing.)

People can easily talk past each other on this topic of determinism/predestined (but people talking past each other is the norm, still here there is even more). When one person says "all" it actually means something a bit different than it will to another. For example many may say some wording of "God is in control of all things" and for many others (like me) when they say "all" I know that will block some seeker listening from trying to learn more from the word, because of the reasonable interpretation it would mean each individual flap of a butterflies wings is predetermined, and then we are only puppets or robots, and the whole thing is obviously wrong then. That's not because the person saying "all" actually meant that....(though some may), but because this question has so many aspects in it. I'm comfortable with mysteries that we won't necessarily plumb yet. But my guess is God chooses to control only the important outcomes by intervening, but does not control nature (the butterfly, the storm (not usually that is, though of course He can intervene)) because He already made nature "very good" to begin with, and it works already, so it does not need constant maintenance or control, but instead is "very good", and He simply intervenes as He chooses at important moments here and there. But see, someone else may argue on my wording even if after a dozen hours we'd find out we actually agree on much if we could get down to concrete examples, so even when a person argues on it, I can't even assume they actually have a significantly different view (I've found in deeper longer conversations with many different individuals). But I did find this summary of what predestination/election I'd like others to consider and possibly comment on -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election

 

[Halbhh]

e is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)

I've no doubt at all God can see where an individual is going if that person continues in the direction they are currently (and usually for many years) have been going. But when I looked up Isaiah 46:10 I could not but notice is says something else. Yes? Look --

I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it."


We can't but notice He is saying "I will accomplish"
"I will bring it to pass"
"I will do it"

Of course God can accomplish anything He decides to do, regardless of what we do in the meantime. Regardless of if a person turns to the right, or instead goes straight, He can intervene and bring to pass what He intends.

Even if Jonah refuses to go to Nineveh, if God decides that nonetheless He wants Jonah to go, then He can do whatever it takes to change Jonah's direction so that Jonah is corrected and set into the new direction God wants.

 

[bling]

You have it exactly backwards : he foreknows because he predestined !! TRUE FREE WILL CANNOT BE FOREKNOWN OR IT ISN'T REALLY FREE WILL !!

That is not true.

If you know the autonomous free will choice of which someone made in the man's future it is still their autonomous free will choice.

God of the future can know as history all human free will choices which are unchangeable (set) since history cannot be changed. That same God lives at the beginning of time and knows everything God (Himself) knows at the end of time.

If you limit God to the present then He cannot know free will choices in the future.

 

[Doveaman]

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

I totally agree.

God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh's stubbornness was also the reason God raised Pharaoh up to power in Egypt:

"God said to Moses..."I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.'" -- (Ex 3:14-19)

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'" -- (Rom 9:17)

 

[bling]

True Arminiests : always giving credit to man instead of God : why do you have such a problem giving all the credit to God : Why do you feel you must give something to man : It's just not true : It is all God : Eph 1(11), Col 1(17), Heb 12(2), Rom 13(1)

Why is all the blame for those who are lost God's fault?
There is no "credit" to be taken for humbly accepting pure sacrificial undeserved Charity. Do you give "credit", for a job will done, to a beggar who humbly accepts undeserved charity?

 

[bling]

I've no doubt at all God can see where an individual is going if that person continues in the direction they are currently (and usually for many years) have been going. But when I looked up Isaiah 46:10 I could not but notice is says something else. Yes? Look --

I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it."


We can't but notice He is saying "I will accomplish"
"I will bring it to pass"
"I will do it"

Of course God can accomplish anything He decides to do, regardless of what we do in the meantime. Regardless of if a person turns to the right, or instead goes straight, He can intervene and bring to pass what He intends.

Even if Jonah refuses to go to Nineveh, if God decides that nonetheless He wants Jonah to go, then He can do whatever it takes to change Jonah's direction so that Jonah is corrected and set into the new direction God wants.

Could it also be in God's will to do things, the allowing on man to have limited free will?
Did God accomplish and was it brought to pass, the giving of mature adults the autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His charity?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Could it also be in God's will to do things, the allowing on man to have limited free will?
Did God accomplish and was it brought to pass, the giving of mature adults the autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His charity?

I agree with you that it's a case between two extremes.. otherwise no one could be held accountable for their sin..yet, God is in control..

 

[Doveaman]

A friendly question. While I think it's unimportant for a believer whether they have some esoteric knowledge (correct or incorrect either way) of this kind, there is a concern that keeps coming up to me when I see these threads on the internet -- if a person thinks they are under irresistible grace, going to be saved no matter what they do in the end, then one or the other of 2 problems that are very serious seem to occur. Either (the less likely perhaps) -- they may feel since they are saved inevitably, then they can at times do sins and not even need to confess and repent. Or the perhaps more likely problem -- they may think since they think there is irresistible grace and if they indeed to realize they still have to confess and repent (and that demonstrates they are truly chosen), then in spite of this alignment they are still committing an offense to discuss the subject publically in that isn't it just like saying to other random people listening/reading, some of whom aren't yet come to Christ, 'I have this infinite treasure, and some of you other people are not chosen and can't get it', which seems to be the opposite of the great commission.

I understand your concern.

But it's not possible for us to know if we are predestined for glory or predestined for destruction since they both are based on the choices we are making now.

God already knows the choices we will make, so He can predetermine our destiny, but He still determines our destiny by the choices we are making now.

To us, our choices are being made now.

But to the omniscient, omnipresent God, our choices have already occurred.

This is why God could predetermine the destruction of the Canaanites based on His foreknowledge of our future choices:

"Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." -- (Deut 20:17-18)

 

[Doveaman]

Capital Hogwarsh. The Scriptures you've quoted don't say anything of the sort. You're adding words and concepts to these passages to make them fit your doctrine, but it's not what the texts themselves are saying.

Foreknew in Romans 8:29 is not talking about God's knowledge of our actions. Rather it's talking about his sovereign choice of intimate love. When it says that Adam knew his wife, for example, it's talking about his intimate relationship with her.

Capital Hogwash.

Adam did not foreknew his wife.

God is saying that before the elect were born, he chose them for an intimate relationship. This is based on his free love and not on their foreseen actions or responses.

I'm sure there is some truth to this, but it's not completely true.

God does judge us based on foreseen choices:

"Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." -- (Deut 20:17-18)

 

[Doveaman]

I've heard that argument before about foreknowledge implying determinism. I just don't buy it. I think the argument is non sequitor. If foreknowledge implies determinism, then that logically means that the one who has foreknowledge is forcing the determinism. If I watch a movie that I had seen before, I have foreknowledge of the events to take place in the movie. Does that mean that I cause those events to take place. Obviously not.

Well said.

 

[Mike Czaj]

About our (non essential, non crucial) views on about how predestination works in relation to free will (which I take to mean agency, an ability to choose and act, however imperfectly), there are other formulations that make more sense and fit more scriptures as I understand. See the problem is that if God foreknows every (notice this word is 'every'; not 'many' or 'crucial' or other reasonable views, but here 'every') action, choice we will do ahead of time, then those choices being already known therefore are...fact. Already fixed. Determined. Then any 'free will' is but an illusion in a key way. More notable though: Why are there any commands from Christ like "love one another" if it's already fact whether you will or won't, so in effect it's as if you need not even bother whether to hear Him say it nor take it to heart, since it's already fact what you'll actually do. That kind of full determinism (on every thing, instead of for instance some things) makes us just like robots. But another view fits more scriptures and makes us not robots -- one in which God truly knows us and also can see exactly where the direction we are currently going leads to, with total understanding, and through the Spirit we can be pulled to change direction (to save us!!, or if we always refuse then we'd be lost). But regardless of if He made us truly unpredictable in this way (able to truly choose to respond to or reject the pull of the spirit), still He would be able to accomplish all His plans of course, regardless of what we do. This fits election/predestination being through Christ, as explained fairly well here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election#Summary_of_the_corporate_view_of_election (though of course this very issue is a main theological question; it's simply a reasonably good summary that is useful to lay out the view I think fits more scripture better).

One point that I don't see that anyone brought up is that sequential time is a creation of God as well, and that He is outside it as Creator. That is a concept human reason cannot encompass, since we have no reference, and think of everything as before or after. So when we are trying to wrap our heads around God foreknowing and predestining, which Scripture tells us both have been in place before Creation and therefore before sequential time, then we are beyond our ability to comprehend God's work in eternity (in this case past). Also, when we try to argue the particulars of how we envision God did or does something, according to our human understanding, we are stepping beyond true knowledge, and forming our own inadequate conclusions. The main point of Scripture that I see concerning predestination is that through the writers, God is giving us who trust and obey Christ the secure promise that we are His, He is doing a good work in us, and it will be accomplished, no matter what earthly circumstances come against us. Grace in operation. And so we have courage to press on. That is the practical end of this discussion, not who is in and who is out, and why.

 

[Doveaman]

In reality God's thoughts are not totally above our full comprehension.

Really ?

Yep.

really ? ? ?

Yep.

As high as heaven is above the earth ..... .......

REALLY ? ? ?

Yep.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned....'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?'" But we have the mind of Christ." -- (1 Cor 2:14-3:1)

 

[Doveaman]

So, to me, this is really just academic, but I do sometimes worry for those not yet having come to Christ about whether they hear some double predestination viewpoint (as suggested in the OP bolding of "prepared for destruction? "), and then this pre-damned idea blocks them from belief even (as various passages in the NT suggest is possible, for some to be blocked by the wrongs visible from believers).

As I said in the OP, those who are prepared for glory or destruction are prepared based on the free choices we are making now.

So we are still responsible for the choices we are making now which will determine our destiny.

As so many people, millions and millions, will consider it -- if God really does know already the precise future in every way (instead of certain key things), then those future events are truly fixed

The future events are only fixed in the sense that God has foreseen them, but has not determined them.

and truly unalterable

They are alterable in our present time which God has already foreseen.

and totally determined.

They are not determined.

As was said before, knowing the outcome of a movie that you have watched before does not mean you have determined the outcome of that movie.

It's all the way to the classic old idea of the 'clockwork Universe' writ large, even onto spirit/soul also. In contrast if an outcome can be altered (either by us or by Him), that means He hadn't yet chosen or pre-seen, and that outcome was not fixed, and therefore was not known ahead of time.

The altered outcome is also foreseen:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." -- (Matt 24:21-22)

The great tribulation on the elect is foreseen and the altered outcome for the elect is also foreseen.

 

[Doveaman]

You have it exactly backwards : he foreknows because he predestined !! TRUE FREE WILL CANNOT BE FOREKNOWN OR IT ISN'T REALLY FREE WILL !!

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." -- (Matt 19:26)

 

[Doveaman]

Can I chime in here?

I don't believe anyone believes it doesn't matter what you do as a believer, you will go to heaven anyway..I've certainly never heard that posited anywhere except for (perhaps) from the magic sentence crowd..

The result of believing that some people will go to heaven and some people will not (which is true) and the 'who will' is within the foreknowledge of God, is that you dont know who will someday be your brother and sister in Christ, so you end up treating everyone as if they may be or may become so.

You also don't know if it will be you to lead them to Christ, or if Christ will use you in some way, so you hope God will use you in their life.. if even in a small way.

You do feel less like you have to force people, or get pushy with them, it becomes feeling more like a relaxed conversation among family, than a "oh no they're gonna go to hell if I don't convince them now!" feeling..

I find someone needing time, or space, far less threatening - but I really really trust that God brings His own to HIM in some way.. that doesn't make me apathetic, just confident.

Very insightful.

 

[Loren T.]

The early Christians were totally on board with free will. Do really think the guys who were one generation removed form the Apostles got it wrong? In fact, they were arguing against the determinists of their time.

I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance. (c. 207, Vol. 3, pp. 300-301)
Tertullian (Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus) 160-225 AD

”But although we shall be understood, from our argument, to be only so affirming man’s unshackled power over his will, that what happens to him should be laid to his own charge, and not to God’s, yet that you may not object, even now, that he ought not to have been so constituted, since his liberty and power of will might turn out to be injurious…Therefore it was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with a free will and a mastery of him self;… At present, let God’s goodness alone occupy our attention, that which gave so large a gift to man, even the liberty of his will.” /Chapter 6
Irenaeus of Lyons 120-202 AD

This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves… Irenaeus of Lyons 120-202 AD (c. 180, Against Heresies 37; God’s Strategy In Human History, p. 246)

 

[Loren T.]

"God is in control of all things" and for many others (like me) when they say "all" I know that will block some seeker listening from trying to learn more from the word, because of the reasonable interpretation it would mean each individual flap of a butterflies wings is predetermined, and then we are only puppets or robots, and the whole thing is obviously wrong then

I have a negative reaction to Christians constantly saying " God is in control." I know they mean it as an encouragement, but I always wonder what goes through the mind of a person who, for example, has just lost a loved one to cancer or accident and someone says that to them. Do they hear: " God is the one who caused your pain.?"
I will say God is sovereign, but not "God is in control." The two have very different meanings.

 

[Halbhh]

One point that I don't see that anyone brought up is that sequential time is a creation of God as well, and that He is outside it as Creator. That is a concept human reason cannot encompass, since we have no reference, and think of everything as before or after. So when we are trying to wrap our heads around God foreknowing and predestining, which Scripture tells us both have been in place before Creation and therefore before sequential time, then we are beyond our ability to comprehend God's work in eternity (in this case past). Also,
and forming our own inadequate conclusions. The main point of Scripture that I see concerning predestination is that through the writers, God is giving us who trust and obey Christ the secure promise that we are His, He is doing a good work in us, and it will be accomplished, no matter what earthly circumstances come against us. Grace in operation. And so we have courage to press on. That is the practical end of this discussion, not who is in and who is out, and why.

As I see it the time idea is speculation. For example, when I read Psalm 139 and it seems to show God already knowing ahead of time not just a few things (important things), but more....if I continue reading, and read through to the end, then in the last 2 verses finally the whole of this poem/prayer becomes clear.
https://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/139.htm
David having said how God can know the heart, then asks Him to search his heart, to find what needs to be changed, and this is the prayer, a very wonderful one. What scripture is there that tells us that instead of being in control simply of important or ultimate things, God also chose to be in control of small things that could work naturally on their own, by His design of nature He created? (but of course those saying God is in control of 'all' things may mean actually things that truly matter, ultimate things, and not the trivial like whether a butterfly darts to the left or to the right next).


I want to emphasize a key true thing you say here -- "...when we try to argue the particulars of how we envision God did or does something, according to our human understanding, we are stepping beyond true knowledge..."

That's exactly how I see it.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

As I see it the time idea is speculation. For example, when I read Psalm 139 and it seems to show God already knowing ahead of time not just a few things (important things), but more....if I continue reading, and read through to the end, then in the last 2 verses finally the whole of this poem/prayer becomes clear.
https://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/139.htm
David having said how God can know the heart, then asks Him to search his heart, to find what needs to be changed, and this is the prayer, a very wonderful one. What scripture is there that tells us that instead of being in control simply of important or ultimate things, God also chose to be in control of small things that could work naturally on their own, by His design of nature He created? (but of course those saying God is in control of 'all' things may mean actually things that truly matter, ultimate things, and not the trivial like whether a butterfly darts to the left or to the right next).


I want to emphasize a key true thing you say here -- "...when we try to argue the particulars of how we envision God did or does something, according to our human understanding, we are stepping beyond true knowledge..."

That's exactly how I see it.

Psalm 147 speaks to this issue.
Follow that with Psalm 148.....look at verse8

 

[Doveaman]

Sorry but your argument is flawed. It is circular. God knew what your choices would be...therefore God predestined you would become what you chose to be.

You are arguing against your own strawman.

We can choose eternal glory now, but there is no guarantee we will receive it in the end.

It all depends on the daily choices we are making now toward that end.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance" -- (Heb 6:4-6)

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." -- (Gal 5:4)

"Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." -- (Heb 10:38)

We who have chosen and have been enlightened with God's grace can draw back and fall away and be alienated from Christ, so there is no guarantee that what we chose now will work out to the very end.

But God can foresee what will.

This is actually circular because from it one could say: I chose to be A; therefore God decided (predestined I'd be A) They lead back into each other. And I'm not explaining it well.

No, you are not.

I submit you are not presenting a predestination argument but one more conducive to Middle Knowledge with Free-Will.

Predestination is simply God predetermining an outcome:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God has predestined us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (the outcome), but this outcome is determined by our faith in Christ.

This predestination, then, is based on God's foreknowledge of our faith in Christ.

This in its simplest way could be described as God in his foreknowledge was able to foresee all possible outcomes of any event. Therefore God chose the action to take that would produce the most favorable events.

I'm okay with that argument to a certain extent.

But our eternal destiny only has two possible outcomes which God has already determined, life or death, eternal glory or eternal destruction, and those two outcomes are dependent on the free choices we are making now, free choices that God has already foreseen.

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" -- (Deut 30:19)