Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[Gr8Grace]

If it was rape, what verses make you think that this was the case?

The time and place. To defy the king was a death sentence. The king gets what the king wants...no questions asked.

As for your thinking that David did not commit murder:
Well, just because he planned it does not make it any less a murder. What crime would this be called today? What sin in the Bible would you define it as?

My point was that it was a particular loathsome, underhanded,planned, sneaky and cowardly kind of murder. Not that it wasn't murder.

This is the problem. Saying that David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder is to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Actually, it turns the self-righteous prigs works into used menstrual rags. And It makes their blood boil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In Post #182 of this thread, Free Grace says that God merely disciplines those who rebel.

Oh, really? Why didn't you quote what I said. I've ALWAYS emphasized from Heb 12:11 that God's discipline is PAINFUL, yet here you are, trying to minimize what I said about discipline. And I've given plenty of examples from Scripture that PROVES that God's discipline is far from being "mere".

But this is not a loss of salvation, though. One can still sin and still be saved.

Do you not realize that the 2nd sentence is basically saying that WHEN one sins, they are no longer saved? Please read what you write before you post.

And please provide any verse that actually says that sinning results in loss of salvation.

So a believer can sleep around with a bunchof people and still be saved and they are only going to be disciplined in this life or lose rewards. This is what I believe is what he is saying. Do you believe the same way?

"only"? Again, you are misrepresenting what I have said.

Why don't you read what David said about his discipline after Bathsheba and having her husband killed?

Psa 32:3-5
3 When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy on me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer.
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.

So please QUIT trying to minimize God's discipline.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then why did he say.... "yes?

He said "yes" to my question that a believer can continue to murder, rape, etc. and still be saved.

It appears I've assumed more than is warranted by what you comprehend.

It seems that you think that commiting sin will result in loss of salvation. Or is it just certain sins? So, which is it; all sins or just certain sins?

If it is only certain sins, then please list the ones that result in loss of salvation, and don't forget to provide the verse or verses that teach this.

While I believe a believer can stumble into sin on occasion, they need to repent or confess of those sins to Jesus and forsake those sins.

Yes, they should.

They are not just automatically still saved if they commit those sins.

What does this mean? "not just automatically still saved".

It still seems you believe that sin will result in loss of salvation. Yet you haven't yet provided any verses that teach this.

So why do you believe it?

Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes. The Bible is clear.

Yes, or no?

Note what David wrote in regard to those specific sins:

Psalms 51 -
7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

v.7 is a request for cleansing from his sins
v.8 is an acknowledgement of his discipline. Are "crushed bones" just "mere" discipline? huh?
v.9 continues the request for cleansing and forgiveness
v.10 is a request for the ability to be faithful
v.11 is a request to not take the Holy Spirit away from him. Remember that the Holy Spirit was given to only very few believers in the OT. In the NT, the indwelling Holy Spirit is universal.
v.12 is a request for God to restore the JOY of God's salvation.

So, focus on v.12. David WAS NOT asking for salvation back. He was asking for the joy of God's salvation back.

iow, while sinning and then the painful discipline, there was NO JOY in David's salvation.

So he was asking God to restore the joy of salvation. This is a request for fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is encouraging. Now so have to ask why so many protestants oddly assume the judgement seat of Christ isn"t a real judgement bit something else.

I think there's a lot of questions about why protestants assume so many things that just aren't true.

I believe it is where we are actually judged and not here on earth.

Don't forget that God does discipline His children while on this earth. Heb 12

It is how the Church believed from Her conception. This saved forever while here on earth is as new as Calvinism.

I'm not a Calvinist and I don't defend the theology, but eternal security was directly and clearly taught by Jesus Christ in John 10:28.

We seem to be looking for this blessed assurance harder than we attempt to actually follow Christ.

No one needs to looking hard for assurance. God has promised it.

But you are correct that all believers should be way more focused on actually following Christ. Amen to that!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those who are in Christ must continue to obey His teachings, His word, His doctrine or the will no longer have God.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

It's just sad how much you don't understand that "abiding" is about fellowship.

Just like when the prodigal left home after highly insulting his father, which resulted in being out of fellowship. When the son returned, he was abiding with his father, because fellowship was restored.

But I wonder how much of this you even understand.

If you understand abide, then you also know that a person who is obeying the teachings of Christ, then leaves that place of obeying Christ, whereby they no longer obeying His doctrine, then they no longer have God.

You've already demonstrated your failure to understand fellowship and abiding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am saying that you are saying that you do not have to follow Jesus in relation to salvation.

Do you believe or NOT believe these verses about salvation and/or eternal life?

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please read each verse and then count the number which teach that salvation and/or eternal life is based on following Jesus.

Now, please provide a list of verses that DO teach directly that following Jesus is required for salvation and/or eternal life.

While you may not exactly say that we are not to follow Jesus, that is basically what you are saying when you tell a person that they are still saved even if they do not follow Jesus.

No, that is just your twisted misunderstanding of what I say.

Is that your impression when you read John 10:28 where Jesus said that thoe He gives eternal life shall never perish?

Well, do ya?

 

[JLB777]

It's just sad how much you don't understand that "abiding" is about fellowship.

Just like when the prodigal left home after highly insulting his father, which resulted in being out of fellowship. When the son returned, he was abiding with his father, because fellowship was restored.

But I wonder how much of this you even understand.


You've already demonstrated your failure to understand fellowship and abiding.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus understood and taught that when those who are in Him, do not remain in Him, they are cast into the fire and burned.




JLB

 

[WordSword]

Do not Grieve the Spirit and do not quench the Spirit.

Immature Christians will grieve and quench the Spirit (even unknowingly and unwillingly) in their walk until they eventually begin to mature in the Father's "work" in them, and this "work" is done in all who are reborn. Phil 2:13 is not to certain believers but all believers, given the time in this life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I actually explained how v.27 doesn't rise to the level of setting forth any condition at all. It actually goes without saying. But apparently you aren't familiar with what conditional clauses look like.

So I'll provide several examples of what a conditional clause looks like:

If following Jesus was a condition for never perishing from v.28, it would have to look like this:
27 IF My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and IF they follow me.
28 THEN I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

or -

27 AS LONG AS My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and AS LONG AS they follow me.
28 THEN I WILL give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The words in red represent a conditional clause. Yet, Jesus DIDN'T use any of those words, did He.


What are you talking about? I gave 5 numbered points. Which you've ignored.


See above for examples of what conditions look like. And v.27 does NOT have any conditional language in it.


Correct. And no conditional language was used in either verse.

The Word of God is not written in such a way so as to cater to a belief you would prefer to hear. First, John 10:27-28 does not refer to lazy sheep but it refers to sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. Second, if you need "IF" statements, there are "IF" statements in the Bible that demolish OSAS, if you are truly open to accepting what the Bible plainly says. For here are...

If Statements That Refute Eternal Security:

1. Matthew 5:30 - “And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
   
   
2. Matthew 6:15 - “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
   
   
3. Mark 8:36 - ”For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
   
   
4. Matthew 19:17 - “...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
   
   
5. Matthew 24:48-51 - “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
   
   
6. John 8:42 - “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”
   
   
7. John 8:51 - “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
   
   
8. John 14:23 - “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
   
   
9. John 15:6 - “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
   
   
10. John 15:14 - “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.”
    
    
11. Acts of the Apostles 8:22 - “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.”
    
    
12. Romans 8:13 - “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
    
    
13. Romans 10:9 - “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
    
    
14. Romans 11:21 - “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.”
    
    
15. Romans 11:22 - “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
    
    
16. 1 Corinthians 3:17 - “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
    
    
17. 1 Corinthians 5:11 - “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”
    
    
18. 1 Corinthians 7:9 - “But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.”
    
    
19. 1 Corinthians 16:22 - “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.”
    
    
20. 2 Corinthians 11:15 - “Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
    
    
21. Galatians 5:2 - “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
    
    
22. Colossians 1:21-23 - “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”
    
    
23. 1 Timothy 5:8 - “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
    
    
24. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,”
    
    
25. 2 Timothy 2:12 - “... if we deny him, he also will deny us:”
    
    
26. Hebrews 10:26 - “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
    
    
27. Hebrews 10:38 - “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
    
    
28. James 1:26 - “If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”
    
    
29. James 2:17 - “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
    
    
30. James 5:19-20 - “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
    
    
31. 1 Peter 4:18 - “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
    
    
32. 2 Peter 2:4-6 - “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;”
    
    
33. 1 John 1:7 - “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
    
    
34. 1 John 1:9 - “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
    
    
35. 1 John 2:3 - “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
    
    
36. 1 John 4:20 - “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”
    
    
37. Revelation 14:9-10 - “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:”
    
    
38. Revelation 22:19 - “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Those who follow Him receive eternal life.

This is made up fantasy. That's NOT what Jesus said. There are NO verses anywhere in the Bible that say what you are claiming.

Not true. Jesus said,

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29)

I read about earning an inheritance here. Salvation isn't earned. It's a gift. Eph 2:8,9.

Rewards is not mentioned in Matthew 19:29. Eternal life is used in this verse in reference to inheritance. Besides, are you saying you don't believe what Matthew 19:29 says when it says that by forsaking things equates with eternal life?

Also, just because something can be received as a gift, does not mean one does not work to take care of that gift. For if we received a car as a free gift and yet we ran red lights, drove drunk, and hit pedestrians, we are not going to keep that free gift for very long.

Here's how to receive eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Well, you gotta keep reading in John 3, my friend. It says this (Which refutes your belief).

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:19-21).

Notice verse 20? It says everyone who does evil hates the light. Can a person who hates the light or Christ be saved? Surely not.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I highlighted the portion of the verse here for you that refutes your belief. It says he who does NOT OBEY the Son will not see life.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The word "hears" in John 5:24 is in reference to obeying God's Word.
Jesus said to the disobedient pharisees in John 8, "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

This is not just a belief in the person of Jesus, but this is a belief in everything Jesus taught, too. For Jesus said that we are not his brothers and sisters if we do not the will of the Father (See Matthew 12:49-50). 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our sanctification or holiness.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

When you read 1 Timothy 1:16, you also have to read 1 Timothy 1:9-10 that talks about how the law is not made for a righteous man but for the ungodly, sinners, etc. This lets us know that ungodly behavior is not acceptable as a part of eternal life. Paul mentions how he used to be a sinner as a part of his old life in 1 Timothy 1:13.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:12 says, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

So you have to have the Son in order to have life (i.e. eternal life or salvation).
How can we have an assurance that we are abiding in the Son or Christ?
Well, if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3-4).

 

[FreeGrace2]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus understood and taught that when those who are in Him, do not remain in Him, they are cast into the fire and burned.JLB

What you haven't come close to proving is that this metaphor is literal.

Further, you have not proved that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish.

Finally, since Jesus Himself said that those who believe POSSESS eternal life (John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13), and those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish (John 10:28), your argument is against what the Lord said.

It's simply unconscionable to argue against the Lord.

Those who do so, do so to their own peril.

There are 5 verses I have cited that support my claims. If you believe that any of them don't support my claim, please note which verses don't, and explain why they don't.

But don't bother with the phony claim that I have given "no Scripture".

 

[JLB777]

What you haven't come close to proving is that this metaphor is literal.

LOL.


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Jesus is referring to literal people by His use of pronouns, referring to people.


I know it all must be sooooo confusing to you. I will post the previous verse for context. Maybe that will help.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5


I hope this helps.







JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Word of God is not written in such a way so as to cater to a belief you would prefer to hear.

Of course it isn't. What a silly thing to say.

First, John 10:27-28 does not refer to lazy sheep but it refers to sheep that FOLLOW Jesus.

I never said anything about "lazy sheep", so your comment here is irrelevant.

Second, if you need "IF" statements, there are "IF" statements in the Bible that demolish OSAS, if you are truly open to accepting what the Bible plainly says.

Oh, here we go again. I really wonder how any rational person can read John 10:27,28 and come away thinking that anyone who has been given eternal life CAN perish. Just amazing.

For here are...

If Statements That Refute Eternal Security

There were 38 verses quoted. I'll let readers of this thread read them for themselves, but NONE of the 38 verses come close to saying that salvaton can be lost, taken away, revoked, lost, given away, forfeited, etc.

Not true. Jesus said,

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

Could you please explain which words are equivalent to "lose salvation"? This is a statement about discipleship. Any believer who isn't a disciple isn't worthy of Jesus.

But how is being "unworthy" equivalent to losing salvation.

I think you've got quite an imagination.

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

Again, no words to the effect of "losing salvation".

Rewards is not mentioned in Matthew 19:29. Eternal life is used in this verse in reference to inheritance. Besides, are you saying you don't believe what Matthew 19:29 says when it says that by forsaking things equates with eternal life?

Wow. Talk about not believing a verse. You still believe that those Jesus gives eternal life CAN perish, in spite of His clear words.

So don't lecture me about not believing a verse.

Also, just because something can be received as a gift, does not mean one does not work to take care of that gift.

Let's be clear here. Eternal life is NEVER described as something that needs to be "cared for". But please provide any verse that you think does so.

And, IF eternal life DOES have to be "cared for" (whatever that means), then ultimately one's salvation is STILL dependent upon the recipient.

Yet, Jesus was clear about the status of recipients of eternal life; they SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't have been said any more clear than that.

For if we received a car as a free gift and yet we ran red lights, drove drunk, and hit pedestrians, we are not going to keep that free gift for very long.

Well, at least we all know you equate the priceless gift of eternal life as nothing more than a car. That's really low.

And there is NO parallel between possessing eternal life and abusing an object.

Well, you gotta keep reading in John 3, my friend. It says this (Which refutes your belief).

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

Notice verse 20? It says everyone who does evil hates the light. Can a person who hates the light or Christ be saved? Surely not.

Maybe in your haste to justify your unbiblical beliefs, you didn't read the verse very carefully. It SAYS "neither comes to the light". So we're not even talking about one who HAS believed.

But I'm not surprised, since none of the 38 verses you carefully quoted and numbered say anything about losing savlation.

So you either don't read carefully, or your imagination runs wild when you read Scripture.

I highlighted the portion of the verse here for you that refutes your belief. It says he who does NOT OBEY the Son will not see life.

Do you know the Greek word for "obey" here? Probably not. "not obey" means "not believe".

Which you are guilty of regarding John 10:28.

What you reject is that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The word "hears" in John 5:24 is in reference to obeying God's Word.
Jesus said to the disobedient pharisees in John 8, "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

It also includes "believes". And on that basis, the believer possesses eternal life.

And to "hear" means to comprehend what has been said. And the word DOES NOT MEAN OBEY. It means UNDERSTAND.

Comprendo?

So Jesus was indicating WHEN a person possesses eternal life. When they HEAR and BELIEVE the gospel. That's WHEN.

And those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I highlighted the part that you have rejected. Your theology rejects what Jesus said.

This is not just a belief in the person of Jesus, but this is a belief in everything Jesus taught, too.

I guess you didn't read (or believe) John 20:31 then.

For Jesus said that we are not his brothers and sisters if we do not the will of the Father (See Matthew 12:49-50). 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our sanctification or holiness.

Right. Salvation by works, behavior, huh.

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16).

Do you even understand what sin does to fellowship with the Lord? Probably not.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

I've explained God's discipline which includes physical death. But you are free to imagine anything you want the verse to say.

1 John 5:12 says, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

It sure does. But it seems to me that you don't understand what it means.

What about the very next verse?
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Where do you see anything about behavior or lifestyle here? Because they aren't mentioned here.

Those who believe possess eternal life. And those who possess (have been given) eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Yet you still don't believe the Bible. Amazing.

So you have to have the Son in order to have life (i.e. eternal life or salvation).

Of course. And v.13 refutes your unbiblical theology just as John 10:28 does.

How can we have an assurance that we are abiding in the Son or Christ?

First, one must understand what "abiding" means. And you don't. You've equated the word with being saved, and it's not even about that. It's about fellowship, which you've also rejected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I hope this helps.

JLB

I have concluded that you are beyond help.

Jesus was crystal clear about those He gives eternal life; both WHEN He does and the ultimate result.

Those who believe in Him possess eternal life. This is plainly stated in John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13. I'll let you look them up for yourself and IF any of these verses don't say what I claim they say, please explain to me what they are saying.

Those who believe possess eternal life because Jesus said He is the One who gives eternal life in John 10:28. If you disagree, then please explain WHY I'm wrong.

Jesus also said those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) they shall never perish.

Yet you keep arguing that those who have eternal life CAN perish, in direct opposition to what Jesus said.

This has been explained over and over. But it seems you just don't want to get it.

Your rejection is what Jesus said. Not what I post. I have quoted what Jesus said, and you continue to reject it.

Just like Pharaoh, the more you resist God, the harder your heart becomes.

I'd be very careful if I were you.

 

[Gr8Grace]

First, one must understand what "abiding" means. And you don't. You've equated the word with being saved, and it's not even about that. It's about fellowship, which you've also rejected.

The Irony in it all. If we abide with Christ or are in fellowship with Him...........We are going to KNOW we are saved and will never perish....Because it is based upon His character, nature,virtue and righteousness.

If we don't abide/fellowship with Him. We are going to be all over the map........And wishy washy on just about every detail.

 

[JLB777]

I have concluded that you are beyond help.

Jesus was crystal clear about those He gives eternal life; both WHEN He does and the ultimate result.

Those who believe in Him possess eternal life. This is plainly stated in John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13. I'll let you look them up for yourself and IF any of these verses don't say what I claim they say, please explain to me what they are saying.

Those who believe possess eternal life because Jesus said He is the One who gives eternal life in John 10:28. If you disagree, then please explain WHY I'm wrong.

Jesus also said those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) they shall never perish.

Yet you keep arguing that those who have eternal life CAN perish, in direct opposition to what Jesus said.

This has been explained over and over. But it seems you just don't want to get it.

Your rejection is what Jesus said. Not what I post. I have quoted what Jesus said, and you continue to reject it.

Just like Pharaoh, the more you resist God, the harder your heart becomes.

I'd be very careful if I were you.

Now you are trying to change the subject, again, when the truth has refuted your man made doctrine.



6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Jesus is referring to literal people by His use of pronouns, referring to people.


I know it all must be sooooo confusing to you. I will post the previous verse for context. Maybe that will help.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5


Your attempt to discredit and explain way the simple and plain teaching of Jesus Christ, so as to exalt your man made doctrine over the truth of God's word is crystal clear to all who read this thread.


Your claim that this teaching is not literal, has been easily refuted by just reading the text.

• I am the Vine
• You are the branches
• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch
• they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• You sir are a promoter of heresy.

Those who practice the work of heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Immature Christians will grieve and quench the Spirit (even unknowingly and unwillingly) in their walk until they eventually begin to mature in the Father's "work" in them, and this "work" is done in all who are reborn. Phil 2:13 is not to certain believers but all believers, given the time in this life.

Maturity is knowing His mind,His doctrines. Then applying them to our lives. If we don't know His doctrines(his 'work' in us) we cannot and will not apply them to our lives. This is why we see Christianity filled with all sorts of doctrines and a WHOLE bunch of fear,worry and guilt.

Just take all the forums we are on for example. 70-80 year old Christians who were saved at ages 10-30 years old.......and we see every wind of doctrine imaginable.

I definitely believe Philippians 2:13 is to just believers. Yet, I believe it is to certain believers.

1. Believers who understand that no matter what 'stage' they are at in their walk, that they can grieve and quench the Spirit.

2. That they need to regain the filling of the Spirit when they do sin.

3. That they should be walking in the Spirit.

4. 1 John 1:9 is Gods mechanics as to which the believer gets back into the filling of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

Philippians 2:13 is to believers who have CHOSEN to sit down more than once or twice a week, and have learned His doctrines(His 'work') and can apply them to their lives.....they have learned how to live the Christian way of life. Those who don't chose to learn His doctrines(His 'work') remain babes.

Just the evidences from these forums alone...show the result of folks not advancing in His 'work.'

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Irony in it all. If we abide with Christ or are in fellowship with Him...........We are going to KNOW we are saved and will never perish....Because it is based upon His character, nature,virtue and righteousness.

If we don't abide/fellowship with Him. We are going to be all over the map........And wishy washy on just about every detail.

Very well stated!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now you are trying to change the subject, again, when the truth has refuted your man made doctrine.

I've never changed the subject about eternal security.

As to your claim that my view are "man made doctrine", you're actually correct! How 'bout that!

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth and was born of woman and lived fully human about about 33 years perfectly keeping the entire Law.

And He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
And He taught that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS eternal life. John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13

I encourage you to address these 2 points and show me from the verses cited that they do not support what I am claiming.

But we all know you've never done that, and don't expect to either. Because you know that you cannot do that.

Because the verses cited ALL say what I claim.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Any doctrine that must resort to metaphors, figures of speech and parables is in dire trouble from the start.

Where is the verse that actually speaks of losing salvation? That's what's missing from your theology.

Jesus is referring to literal people by His use of pronouns, referring to people.

That's not what is in dispute.

I know it all must be sooooo confusing to you. I will post the previous verse for context. Maybe that will help.

No, the confusion is all on your side. Jesus was clear about eternal security from John 10:28 and no one has been able to prove that He wasn't teaching eternal security for those He gives eternal security.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5

The doctrine of fellowship has been explained many times. But you are just being resistant to it.

Your attempt to discredit and explain way the simple and plain teaching of Jesus Christ, so as to exalt your man made doctrine over the truth of God's word is crystal clear to all who read this thread.

All th discrediting goes to you and your side, for REFUSING to believe what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28; that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

You sir are a promoter of heresy.

I'm not the one who rejects what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. I'm not the one who claims saved people, which means they've been given eternal life, CAN perish.

Those who practice the work of heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That is absolutely correct.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

I've already explained the 3 parallel passages about this; 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5.

Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6 uses the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" while Eph 5 uses the phrase "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Since all 3 passages are directlly parallel, they all are saying the same thing.

So, "not inherit the kingdom" means the same thing as "will have no inheritance in the kingdom".

What is clear is that neither of the phrases even speaks of entrance into the kingdom, and the Eph 5 passage deals with what won't be IN the kingdom.

So your assumptions are incorrect.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

What about the ones who claim "I know Him" but reject what He says?

Your claims are in direct opposition to the Savior's.

 

[JLB777]

I've never changed the subject about eternal security.

As to your claim that my view are "man made doctrine", you're actually correct! How 'bout that!

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth and was born of woman and lived fully human about about 33 years perfectly keeping the entire Law.

And He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
And He taught that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS eternal life. John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13

I encourage you to address these 2 points and show me from the verses cited that they do not support what I am claiming.

But we all know you've never done that, and don't expect to either. Because you know that you cannot do that.

Because the verses cited ALL say what I claim.


Any doctrine that must resort to metaphors, figures of speech and parables is in dire trouble from the start.

Where is the verse that actually speaks of losing salvation? That's what's missing from your theology.


That's not what is in dispute.


No, the confusion is all on your side. Jesus was clear about eternal security from John 10:28 and no one has been able to prove that He wasn't teaching eternal security for those He gives eternal security.


The doctrine of fellowship has been explained many times. But you are just being resistant to it.


All th discrediting goes to you and your side, for REFUSING to believe what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28; that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.


I'm not the one who rejects what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. I'm not the one who claims saved people, which means they've been given eternal life, CAN perish.


That is absolutely correct.


I've already explained the 3 parallel passages about this; 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5.

Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6 uses the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" while Eph 5 uses the phrase "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Since all 3 passages are directlly parallel, they all are saying the same thing.

So, "not inherit the kingdom" means the same thing as "will have no inheritance in the kingdom".

What is clear is that neither of the phrases even speaks of entrance into the kingdom, and the Eph 5 passage deals with what won't be IN the kingdom.

So your assumptions are incorrect.


What about the ones who claim "I know Him" but reject what He says?

Your claims are in direct opposition to the Savior's.

No scriptures here, just you typical opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference.


Here is an example of your opinion "tagged" with a scripture reference -

And He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

This is not what John 10:28 says. Why do you do this?


Because you are wanting to hide the truth the scriptures teach.


John 15:6 ends your bogus man made doctrine of fallacy and deceit.



6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Jesus is referring to literal people by His use of pronouns, referring to people.


I know it all must be sooooo confusing to you. I will post the previous verse for context. Maybe that will help.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5


Your attempt to discredit and explain way the simple and plain teaching of Jesus Christ, so as to exalt your man made doctrine over the truth of God's word is crystal clear to all who read this thread.


Your claim that this teaching is not literal, has been easily refuted by just reading the text.

• I am the Vine
• You are the branches
• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch
• they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• You sir are a promoter of heresy.

Those who practice the work of heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

JLB

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Eternal Security, OSAS, or Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Type Beliefs do not line up with basic morality, real world examples, and the Bible (using basic rules of grammar or reading).