Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[tdidymas]

I'm thinking the same about yourself.


You just don't believe or understand the doctrine of fellowship.


So from your first sentence above, it seems you don't believe that Jesus died for all sins then. Please provide evidence from Scripture that He didn't.

In the meantime, here are some verses about the scope of His death for sin:
2 Cor 5:14,15
Heb 2:9
1 Tim 2:6


Please provide explanation for HOW I have taken verses "out of context". Just throwing out a charge does not equal truth or fact.


I believe this post of your is the first one to actually make your position clear. From the other ones, it seemed to me that you thought those who had believed could end up in hell.

Now I know that you believe that it's only those who "claim" to be Christian that will end up there.

I still disagree, since believers are capable of any sin that any unbeliever can commit. And the Bible is clear that believers can apostatize.


Of course I understand that verse about Jesus appearing to destroy the works of the devil. He died for ALL sin, so sin isn't an issue at all regarding who goes to hell.


No, it's the ONLY ONE. John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.


It seems you don't really believe Rev 20:15 then. Why not?


Did Christ die for all sins, or just some or most sins?


Do you have a verse that says this, or are you just making up your own verses?


How do you not understand that if this is true, then Christ could NOT have died for all sin?


Bottom line is that those who never received the free gift of eternal life will be cast into hell. Their sins were paid for on the cross.

What gets them to hell is rejecting the one thing that would keep them out of hell.


This is a great example of your claims that leads me to believe that your view (whether admitted to or not) is that a believer can end up not saved, and in hell.

If you don't think a believer is capable of living a disobedient lifestyle, you are woefully naive. What about believers who cease to believe? Do you just wave your magic wand and pronounce them unbelievers all along? That's just blindness to the truth.

Jesus Himself made the point of some who believe (and are therefore saved) but only for a while and in time of testing/temptation they fall away. Go ahead and discount what Jesus clearly said about them; that they believed. Did He not really mean it? Of course He did.


God's wrath (anger) comes on His own children who are disobedient.

Does Rom 13:4 not apply to believers as well as non-believers?
" For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

Believers can be guilty of being a wrongdoer. And will be punished by God's servants, who are "agents of wrath".

Again, your views show how naive you are about what the Bible teaches.


How come there are 2 "heirships" (inheritance) mentioned in Rom 8:17?
"Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

One heirship is guaranteed on the basis of being a child of God. The other one is CONDITIONAL on sharing in His sufferings.


I will point out again the FACT that when lifestyle (works/deeds) are mentioned regarding inheriting eternal life, it CANNOT be about the gift of eternal life. That gift is solely based on faith in Christ. It is NOT based on one's lifestyle. Again, you are very naive.

Do you understand what a reward means? It means something EARNED. By definition.

Now, is your salvation earned or is it by grace? I'll give you no hints.


This is the first time you'v made this silly charge. So let me inform you of my view.

Salvation:
Past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense: saved from the power of sin. Sanctification.
Future tense: saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.

Now you can re-adjust your erroneous view of my belief. Did you notice that all 3 tenses involve being saved from sin? Hopefully you'll quit making these wildly erroneous mistakes.


And this statement from you demonstrates that you really do believe a person can believe in Christ (get saved) but end up not saved and end up in hell.

If you really do either understand or believe John 10:28, you'd not make this kind of error.

In that verse, the SINGLE CONDITION for never perishing is to receive eternal life. Lifestyle is not an issue for those who have believed.


All the errors you've espoused demonstrates how much you do NOT know about the Bible.


If that unrepentant sinner had believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for their sins, their lifestyle has no bearing on their eternal destiny.

However, it has TREMENDOUS bearing on their life on earth and whether they will be rewarded in eternity. You can bet your boots.


I think what you fail to grasp is that God doesn't force anyone. It seems you think He does. Of course God is powerful enough to make the "stones cry out" as Jesus said, and from those stones make MUCH BETTER people than human beings are. But He didn't.

He created humanity with a free will. Who can obey or rebel. Don't take my word for it.

But maybe you'll take Isaiah's word for it.

Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

2 choices every human being faces.


I never said that. Quit putting FALSE words in my mouth.

I fully understand Isa 55:7.


How many times did James use the word "false" anywhere in James? None.

See? You yourself don't even understand what he wrote. He said nothing about a false faith. Maybe you've real too many faulty commentators.

I give up, as you have worn me out. I'll let you have the last word, except for one last ditch effort to get us on the same page. This is what I believe about the gospel:

The goal of the gospel is to get us to believe in the working of God in us that He works His will, that He causes us to live a righteous and holy life in order to glorify Him, and that holy living is needed to enact the God-kind of love for Him and others, and this goal requires us to believe in the incarnation, work, death, and resurrection of Christ. This idea is the essence (in a nutshell) of the gospel, and it is this gospel that the whole NT is talking about.
* This gospel is what the angel was referring to when he said "He shall save His people from their sins."
* This gospel is what Jesus was talking about when He said "repent and believe the gospel," when He said "if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed," and when He said "the one who believes in Me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
* This gospel is what Peter was talking about when he wrote "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
* This gospel is what James had in mind when he wrote "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
* This gospel is what John had in mind when he wrote "the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." and "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."
* This gospel is what the writer of Hebrews had in mind when he wrote "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE," and "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
* This gospel is what Paul had in mind when he wrote "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake," and "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus," and "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death," and "so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit," and "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

I firmly believe that obedience is the proof of faith, since Jesus said "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock...", that whoever obeys the words of Christ (the gospel) is a believer because he believes in Him, and that whoever does not obey Him is an unbeliever because he does not believe in Him, so that obedience is the manifestation of genuine faith. It follows that whoever does not obey the gospel is not a believer.

Therefore, whoever believes in the idea that by our faith in Christ God cleanses us from all sin and causes us to live righteous and holy lives before God as He commanded is a believer, and whoever does not believe in this idea is an unbeliever, since they do not believe in this gospel of reconciliation with God. Whoever goes his own way in disobedience is not a believer because the assumption in that attitude is against reconciliation; such an attitude assumes separation from God.

I am firmly against the cheap grace idea. If someone goes apostate, they are not a believer, and they have nothing to stand on for any security in the grace of God. In the spirit of Paul's writing "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus," anyone who does not obey this gospel will incur lake of fire judgment.

Either you agree with this gospel I laid out here or you disagree.
TD

 

[Gr8Grace]

The goal of the gospel is to get us to believe in the working of God in us

The Goal of the Gospel is to get us to believe the working/works of the Lord Jesus Christ......What He did for us with His life,death(physical and substitute for our spiritual death) and resurrection. Freegrace has an astounding understanding of The Gospel, discipline, rewards, inheritance, fellowship and how to live the Christian way of life.

Cheap grace are those who think their puny little works for an almighty,gracious, JUST AND RIGHTEOUS Creator are worth their salvation. That is cheap Grace.

Faith alone in Christ alone is not cheap. It cost him so much we can't even understand it.

 

[tdidymas]

The Goal of the Gospel is to get us to believe the working/works of the Lord Jesus Christ......What He did for us with His life,death(physical and substitute for our spiritual death) and resurrection. Freegrace has an astounding understanding of The Gospel, discipline, rewards, inheritance, fellowship and how to live the Christian way of life.

Cheap grace are those who think their puny little works for an almighty,gracious, JUST AND RIGHTEOUS Creator are worth their salvation. That is cheap Grace.

Faith alone in Christ alone is not cheap. It cost him so much we can't even understand it.

My understanding is that the term "cheap grace" is used for people who think that a mere "sinner's prayer" obtains eternal life, in which living a holy life is optional. Jude wrote against such an idea, calling it licentiousness.
TD

 

[Gr8Grace]

My understanding is that the term "cheap grace" is used for people who think that a mere "sinner's prayer" obtains eternal life, in which living a holy life is optional. Jude wrote against such an idea, calling it licentiousness.
TD

From my reading of your responses on this thread cheap grace is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for ones salvation. I have not seen one person suggest that someone say's a sinners prayer and they will be saved. 99.9% percent of the sinners prayers I have seen won't save a person. They are about repenting of sin or asking Jesus into your heart.

What saves is BELIEVING in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for ones salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"You just don't believe or understand the doctrine of fellowship."

I give up, as you have worn me out.

I would agree that it is very tiring to try to figure out something that one has no clue about. Kinda like trying to understand calculus for the math challenged.

I'll let you have the last word, except for one last ditch effort to get us on the same page. This is what I believe about the gospel:

The goal of the gospel is to get us to believe in the working of God in us that He works His will, that He causes us to live a righteous and holy life in order to glorify Him, and that holy living is needed to enact the God-kind of love for Him and others, and this goal requires us to believe in the incarnation, work, death, and resurrection of Christ. This idea is the essence (in a nutshell) of the gospel, and it is this gospel that the whole NT is talking about.

I find it interesting that you've left out the main goal of the gospel.

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

What you've listed are the by-products of the gospel. It seems to me that you view the gospel as something to change our behavior. It's so much more than that.

* This gospel is what the angel was referring to when he said "He shall save His people from their sins."

Bing.

* This gospel is what Jesus was talking about when He said "repent and believe the gospel," when He said "if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed," and when He said "the one who believes in Me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."[/QUOTE]
No, this is not the gospel. See Romans 1:16.

* This gospel is what Peter was talking about when he wrote "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

This is a by-product of the gospel.

* This gospel is what James had in mind when he wrote "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

No, James was teaching that faith without evidence is barren (v.20).

* This gospel is what John had in mind when he wrote "the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." and "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."

Again, this is a by-product of the gospel.

* This gospel is what the writer of Hebrews had in mind when he wrote "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE," and "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

The gospel is the good news of salvation in 3 tenses, which I've listed previously.

* This gospel is what Paul had in mind when he wrote "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake," and "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus," and "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death," and "so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit," and "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

The key here is found in the words "to bring about the obedience of faith". This is a reference to trusting in Christ for salvation.

I firmly believe that obedience is the proof of faith, since Jesus said "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock...", that whoever obeys the words of Christ (the gospel) is a believer because he believes in Him, and that whoever does not obey Him is an unbeliever because he does not believe in Him, so that obedience is the manifestation of genuine faith. It follows that whoever does not obey the gospel is not a believer.

This shows a confusion about the meaning of "obedience" and "believing". They aren't the same.

I am firmly against the cheap grace idea.

There is no such thing. God's grace is invaluable. Do you know what that means? It is priceless. Do you understand what that means?

Those who abuse grace don't cheapen it. No one has the power to cheapen ANYTHING of God. So don't kid yourself.

When someone abuses grace, don't think they will get away with it. But God's timing of judgment ain't yours, so don't make any judgments about it.

From man's perspective, God's grace is FREE. From God's perspective, it cost the Son EVERYTHING.

If someone goes apostate, they are not a believer, and they have nothing to stand on for any security in the grace of God.

Nonsense. That is just your opinion, which is not based on the Bible. When God saves someone, they STAY saved, regardless of what they do later. But you stubbornly refuse to accept that fact. So you simply discount that such a person really did believe at one point. Such thinking is just a cop out because you don't like God's plan.

In the spirit of Paul's writing "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus," anyone who does not obey this gospel will incur lake of fire judgment.

Right. And anyone who EVER did believe the gospel remains saved regardless of what happens to them in the future.

Reminds me of something Paul wrote about the future:
Rom 8 -
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Maybe you're not aware of this passage, or just not aware of what the "future" refers to.

It refers to ANYTHING that may occur at a later date. Such as going apostate.

But go ahead and stay in denial of the truth.

Either you agree with this gospel I laid out here or you disagree.
TD

I've given my explanation of your comments. But Romans 1:16 shows where you went off the rails regarding your definition.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My understanding is that the term "cheap grace" is used for people who think that a mere "sinner's prayer" obtains eternal life

Well, you can put your mind to rest regarding my views. I've NEVER agreed that the sinner's prayer does anything, much less save anyone. Or walking down an aisle, or raising one's hand.

The ONLY THING that results in eternal salvation is to put your trust completely in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross on your behalf and gives you salvation for doing so.

Do you have a problem with that?

in which living a holy life is optional.

I really don't understand why people don't understand the issues and use the silly word "optional".

Do you not understand that EVERY choice involves options? Probably not. But they do.

Consider any command you can think of. You are faced with options; to obey or not.

Choices are options.

When you sin (and don't tell me you don't sin), you have made a choice. You had the option of NOT sinning, or TO sin. You chose the option of sinning.

Are you getting this, or is it just sailing right over your head?

Jude wrote against such an idea, calling it licentiousness.
TD

That's exactly what it is.

And it is what grieves/quenched the Holy Spirit. And Paul COMMANDED (choice/option) us to STOP doing it.

This is the essence of spiritual life. Whether we live our live in the power of the Holy Spirit by being filled (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), or by grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

All these are choices, or options.

Which choices are you going to make?

You seem to think the gospel WILL result in holy living. Yet the Bible repeatedly commands and encourages believers to live holy lives. Think about that for a moment.

If holy living is THE result of being saved, there would be no need for commands to saved people for holy living. None whatsoever.

I'll bet you don't have an answer for that.

 

[tdidymas]

From my reading of your responses on this thread cheap grace is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for ones salvation. I have not seen one person suggest that someone say's a sinners prayer and they will be saved. 99.9% percent of the sinners prayers I have seen won't save a person. They are about repenting of sin or asking Jesus into your heart.

What saves is BELIEVING in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for ones salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

You misunderstand me then.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Well, you can put your mind to rest regarding my views. I've NEVER agreed that the sinner's prayer does anything, much less save anyone. Or walking down an aisle, or raising one's hand.

The ONLY THING that results in eternal salvation is to put your trust completely in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross on your behalf and gives you salvation for doing so.

Do you have a problem with that?


I really don't understand why people don't understand the issues and use the silly word "optional".

Do you not understand that EVERY choice involves options? Probably not. But they do.

Consider any command you can think of. You are faced with options; to obey or not.

Choices are options.

When you sin (and don't tell me you don't sin), you have made a choice. You had the option of NOT sinning, or TO sin. You chose the option of sinning.

Are you getting this, or is it just sailing right over your head?


That's exactly what it is.

And it is what grieves/quenched the Holy Spirit. And Paul COMMANDED (choice/option) us to STOP doing it.

This is the essence of spiritual life. Whether we live our live in the power of the Holy Spirit by being filled (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), or by grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

All these are choices, or options.

Which choices are you going to make?

You seem to think the gospel WILL result in holy living. Yet the Bible repeatedly commands and encourages believers to live holy lives. Think about that for a moment.

If holy living is THE result of being saved, there would be no need for commands to saved people for holy living. None whatsoever.

I'll bet you don't have an answer for that.

Yet when you say that going apostate one can still make it to heaven, you are teaching the very licentiousness Jude was talking about.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I said this:
"You just don't believe or understand the doctrine of fellowship."

I would agree that it is very tiring to try to figure out something that one has no clue about. Kinda like trying to understand calculus for the math challenged.


I find it interesting that you've left out the main goal of the gospel.

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

What you've listed are the by-products of the gospel. It seems to me that you view the gospel as something to change our behavior. It's so much more than that.


Bing.

* This gospel is what Jesus was talking about when He said "repent and believe the gospel," when He said "if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed," and when He said "the one who believes in Me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

No, this is not the gospel. See Romans 1:16.


This is a by-product of the gospel.


No, James was teaching that faith without evidence is barren (v.20).


Again, this is a by-product of the gospel.


The gospel is the good news of salvation in 3 tenses, which I've listed previously.


The key here is found in the words "to bring about the obedience of faith". This is a reference to trusting in Christ for salvation.


This shows a confusion about the meaning of "obedience" and "believing". They aren't the same.


There is no such thing. God's grace is invaluable. Do you know what that means? It is priceless. Do you understand what that means?

Those who abuse grace don't cheapen it. No one has the power to cheapen ANYTHING of God. So don't kid yourself.

When someone abuses grace, don't think they will get away with it. But God's timing of judgment ain't yours, so don't make any judgments about it.

From man's perspective, God's grace is FREE. From God's perspective, it cost the Son EVERYTHING.


Nonsense. That is just your opinion, which is not based on the Bible. When God saves someone, they STAY saved, regardless of what they do later. But you stubbornly refuse to accept that fact. So you simply discount that such a person really did believe at one point. Such thinking is just a cop out because you don't like God's plan.


Right. And anyone who EVER did believe the gospel remains saved regardless of what happens to them in the future.

Reminds me of something Paul wrote about the future:
Rom 8 -
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Maybe you're not aware of this passage, or just not aware of what the "future" refers to.

It refers to ANYTHING that may occur at a later date. Such as going apostate.

But go ahead and stay in denial of the truth.


I've given my explanation of your comments. But Romans 1:16 shows where you went off the rails regarding your definition.[/QUOTE]
Talking down to me doesn't support your ideas, it only makes you look prideful.

What you call "by products of the gospel" is part of the gospel itself. They are proofs that a person actually has embraced the gospel. Without those proofs, a person has no security against the 2nd death. You can cry OSAS all you want (which I also believe in), but your way to obtain salvation reeks of weak grace, as if God can't (or won't) preserve a believer's soul from sin. 2Pe 2:9 "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." and 1Co 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." If a man cannot endure temptation and goes apostate or headlong into sin, he is not preserved.
TD

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yet when you say that going apostate one can still make it to heaven, you are teaching the very licentiousness Jude was talking about.
TD

No, I supported my claims with Scripture. All you've done is express opinions and emotions.

Rom 8:38 SAYS that there is NOTHING in the future that can separate the believer from the love of Christ. And going to hell isn't about the love of Christ.

Further, Jesus said never perishing is based on His giving eternal life. Not what one does after receiving it.

I think your basic problem is that you don't really like the extent of God's grace. It's much more than you'd ever give.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No, this is not the gospel. See Romans 1:16.

This is a by-product of the gospel.

No, James was teaching that faith without evidence is barren (v.20).

Again, this is a by-product of the gospel.

The gospel is the good news of salvation in 3 tenses, which I've listed previously.

The key here is found in the words "to bring about the obedience of faith". This is a reference to trusting in Christ for salvation.

This shows a confusion about the meaning of "obedience" and "believing". They aren't the same.

There is no such thing. God's grace is invaluable. Do you know what that means? It is priceless. Do you understand what that means?

Those who abuse grace don't cheapen it. No one has the power to cheapen ANYTHING of God. So don't kid yourself.

When someone abuses grace, don't think they will get away with it. But God's timing of judgment ain't yours, so don't make any judgments about it.

From man's perspective, God's grace is FREE. From God's perspective, it cost the Son EVERYTHING.

Nonsense. That is just your opinion, which is not based on the Bible. When God saves someone, they STAY saved, regardless of what they do later. But you stubbornly refuse to accept that fact. So you simply discount that such a person really did believe at one point. Such thinking is just a cop out because you don't like God's plan.

Right. And anyone who EVER did believe the gospel remains saved regardless of what happens to them in the future.

Reminds me of something Paul wrote about the future:
Rom 8 -
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Maybe you're not aware of this passage, or just not aware of what the "future" refers to.

It refers to ANYTHING that may occur at a later date. Such as going apostate.

But go ahead and stay in denial of the truth.


I've given my explanation of your comments. But Romans 1:16 shows where you went off the rails regarding your definition"

Talking down to me doesn't support your ideas, it only makes you look prideful.

How is quoting Romans 8 "talking down" to anyone?

And my comments were explanations. Apparently you're not open to correction.

What you call "by products of the gospel" is part of the gospel itself.

You are welcome to your own opinion. Romans 1:16 is clear enough.

They are proofs that a person actually has embraced the gospel.

I think you've confused "proofs" and "evidence". They are not the same.

Without those proofs, a person has no security against the 2nd death.

Nonsense. Possessing eternal life is the security against the lake of fire. Jesus said so.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Apparently you don't believe what Jesus said here.

You can cry OSAS all you want (which I also believe in), but your way to obtain salvation reeks of weak grace, as if God can't (or won't) preserve a believer's soul from sin.

This is such nonsense. Of course God has provided every believer with a solution to sin. But you've ignored what I explained.

Did you read my explanation that all choices are options?

And that all believers have the option or choice of being filled with the Spirit, walking by the Spirit AND grieving or quenching the Spirit.

Do you disagree with Paul?

2Pe 2:9 "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." and 1Co 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." If a man cannot endure temptation and goes apostate or headlong into sin, he is not preserved.
TD

I agree with these verses. But it seems you DON'T agree with Paul's commands regarding the Holy Spirit.

Are you aware of the reason God puts His Spirit in each believer?

 

[tdidymas]

This is such nonsense. Of course God has provided every believer with a solution to sin. But you've ignored what I explained.

Did you read my explanation that all choices are options?

And that all believers have the option or choice of being filled with the Spirit, walking by the Spirit AND grieving or quenching the Spirit.

Do you disagree with Paul?

What is nonsense is your slant and agenda, and then calling it Paul. Do you disagree that walking in the Spirit is an obligation (not an option)? Rom. 8:12-13.
TD

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is nonsense is your slant and agenda, and then calling it Paul.

More nonsense. I quoted Paul. What verses have you quoted to support your claims?

Do you disagree that walking in the Spirit is an obligation (not an option)? Rom. 8:12-13.
TD

Listen, all believers are OBLIGATED to be obedient. But being filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit are commands.

Do you disagree that a command provides options?

 

[Gr8Grace]

What is nonsense is your slant and agenda, and then calling it Paul. Do you disagree that walking in the Spirit is an obligation (not an option)? Rom. 8:12-13.
TD

Freegrace lines up with Paul. We are commanded (maybe we will, maybe we won't)to be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, do not quench the Spirit and do not grieve the Spirit.

We are obligated(maybe we will, maybe we won't) to do these things to be counted worthy to reign with Him. And Have the inheritance He has provided for us.

To be SAVED we are DEMANDED (You MUST)to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for our salvation.

 

[JakeyB123]

While there are a number of Scriptures that "seemingly" indicate that salvation can be lost, Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is found in the red words "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is found in the blue words "and they shall never perish".

Also note that the 2 colored phrases are separated by "and", which is a connecting link between the 2 phrases.

Also note that there are no conditions listed or noted for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

If the Bible elsewhere teaches that believers (recipients of eternal life) must meet certain conditions in order to make it to heaven, then Jesus would have been compelled to include them in this very important verse.

So, after the red words "I give them eternal life", we would recognize any conditions by either of 2 ways:

1. "if". It would look like this: "I give them eternal life, and IF..."

2. "as long as". It would look like this: "and as long as..."

Since we find no such wording to indicate conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life, we are confident that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

So, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

This is exactly what Jesus said, and meant.

You cannot take one scripture and make a doctrine, I have myself but I have repented from it.
v 27 says they follow him and hear his voice, not all professing Christians follow Christ, they may honor him with their lips but their hearts are FAR from him. Matthew 15:8
Matthew 24:48-51
Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Soften your heart and allow the word of God through the Holy Spirit teach you.
Let's get real now.. You just said that there are verses that seem as if you can lose it. Does God like to play around with us? Can he tell a lie? No... He loves us and thats why he has given us his word to teach us, but with a hardened heart and a flesh desiring sin comes in, they then tend to cherry-pick scriptures that suit their needs and then simply have their ears tickled enough to where they grow comfortable. I say this out of love for I care for you, no sin is worth losing the Lord Jesus for eternity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life"

You cannot take one scripture and make a doctrine, I have myself but I have repented from it.

There is nothing to repent of here. I explained what Jesus was teaching about the CAUSE and EFFECT of HAVING eternal life.

If you disagree, then please address the red and blue phrases are talking about.

And I'm not making a doctrine from 1 verse. I AM using the best single verse on eternal security and explained WHY it teaches eternal security.

v 27 says they follow him and hear his voice, not all professing Christians follow Christ, they may honor him with their lips but their hearts are FAR from him. Matthew 15:8
Matthew 24:48-51
Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

None of this is relevant to what Jesus said in v.28. And v.27 is descriptive about who His sheep are. v.28 is about what Jesus GIVES to His sheep.

So there is nothing in v.27 that can be linked as a conditional clause to v.28.

Soften your heart and allow the word of God through the Holy Spirit teach you.

That's my current state.

Let's get real now.. You just said that there are verses that seem as if you can lose it.

No, I never said that. I will allow that there are people that quote verses that seem TO THEM that salvation can be lost.

Does God like to play around with us? Can he tell a lie? No... He loves us and thats why he has given us his word to teach us, but with a hardened heart and a flesh desiring sin comes in, they then tend to cherry-pick scriptures that suit their needs and then simply have their ears tickled enough to where they grow comfortable.

If you don't think Jesus was making clear the fact of eternal security, then please follow my lead and explain v.28 as to what Jesus was really talking about.

I say this out of love for I care for you, no sin is worth losing the Lord Jesus for eternity.

How does "sin" enter this discussion about what Jesus was teaching?

It seems your opinion is that a hardened heart and flesh that desires sin leads to the teaching of eternal security.

Do you believe that every person to whom Jesus Christ gives eternal life shall never perish, or do you believe that some of them WILL perish?

 

[Gr8Grace]

Soften your heart and allow the word of God through the Holy Spirit teach you.
Let's get real now.. You just said that there are verses that seem as if you can lose it. Does God like to play around with us? Can he tell a lie? No... He loves us and thats why he has given us his word to teach us

There are no verses that seem to teach loss of salvation. There are people who use their own interpretation of certain verses to try to teach loss of salvation.

There are many verses that clearly teach eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 clearly shows that NOTHING can separate from the love of Christ. We OVERWHELMINGLY conquer through Him. John 10:28 we will NEVER perish.

Now I say lets get real.

Loss of salvation would send some of His children to the Lake of fire FOREVER and EVER. Horrific, tremendous and absolute destruction for eternity. A virtuous, just and righteous God(as believers,our Father) would not leave something like this in an "open to interpretation" state. It would be stated in clear and concise language........just as clear as He has stated our eternal security.

 

[JLB777]

While there are a number of Scriptures that "seemingly" indicate that salvation can be lost, Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is found in the red words "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is found in the blue words "and they shall never perish".

Also note that the 2 colored phrases are separated by "and", which is a connecting link between the 2 phrases.

Also note that there are no conditions listed or noted for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

If the Bible elsewhere teaches that believers (recipients of eternal life) must meet certain conditions in order to make it to heaven, then Jesus would have been compelled to include them in this very important verse.

So, after the red words "I give them eternal life", we would recognize any conditions by either of 2 ways:

1. "if". It would look like this: "I give them eternal life, and IF..."

2. "as long as". It would look like this: "and as long as..."

Since we find no such wording to indicate conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life, we are confident that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

So, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

This is exactly what Jesus said, and meant.

OSAS is a theology of hate.


Jesus taught LOve.


The doctrine of Christ is about what love is.


Most Christians think they can live the way they want and disobey obey Jesus Christ as Lord, and still inherit eternal life.


People who hate will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Those who obey His commandments are those who love.

Those who come to be in Christ by believing must remain in Christ or be cast into the fire and burned.


It's really comes down to believing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If a person believes for a while, then no longer believes, is no longer a believer.


It's one thing to be in Christ, it's another to remain in Christ.


We must obey His word, His teaching, His doctrine as Lord if we are to remain in Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


His commandments are about loving God by loving His people.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5



If we steal from our brother, is that love or hate?

If we covet our brothers things, is that love or hate?

If we commit adultery with our brother wife, is that love or hate?


20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20



2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2

• For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Loss of salvation would send some of His children to the Lake of fire FOREVER and EVER.

That's correct.


LIke the serpent in the garden who beguiled Eve, OSAS is a doctrine of demons, that teaches -

You won't surely die!


Go ahead and disobey God, you won't perish: You won't die.


Your God's children, He loves you: you won't surely die.


That's THE LIE!


Those who obey His commandments are those who love.

Those who come to be in Christ by believing must remain in Christ or be cast into the fire and burned.


It's really comes down to believing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If a person believes for a while, then no longer believes, is no longer a believer.


It's one thing to be in Christ, it's another to remain in Christ.


We must obey His word, His teaching, His doctrine as Lord if we are to remain in Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


His commandments are about loving God by loving His people.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5



If we steal from our brother, is that love or hate?

If we covet our brothers things, is that love or hate?

If we commit adultery with our brother wife, is that love or hate?


20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20



2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2

• For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

Thank God we do have eternal security! Loss of salvation is the EPITOME of hating and MURDERING brothers and sisters in Christ.

I seriously would not want to be in the shoes of those who CONTINUALLY try to find any way under the sun to toss other believers under the bus.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15