LDS What happens to ex-Mormon men?

[Rescued One]

You said: "Another peculiar thing about Mormonism is the lack of spiritual discernment...." Bishops and leaders do have spiritual discernment. I have seen it.

Do they use discernment in calling people to positions and conferring Priesthood offices?

You said: "Then people without those testimonies are are ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood." When ordained to the priesthood a person has the authority to use that priesthood. Peter was made an apostle before he was converted.

Mormons are to ordain worthy men to have the Melchizedek Priesthood. Are those who don't believe Mormonism worthy?

Worthy brethren may receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and be ordained elders when they are at least 18 years old. The rights and responsibilities of elders are revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 20:38–45; 42:44; 46:2; and 107:11–12. Elders also hold the authority of deacons, teachers, and priests.
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbo...e-church/melchizedek-priesthood?lang=eng&_r=1

You said:"Mormonism teaches that my husband lost the eternal life" No it does not. It is not up to us to judge. Jesus Christ is the judge, He and only He will judge. However all of us are to repent and refrain from sin as stated in the Bible.

Mormonism comes partly from the Doctrine and Covenants.

Are you claiming that the verses below aren't true? Would someone scare the priesthood holders with a lie?

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

"The stake president oversees the conferral of the Melchizedek Priesthood and ordinations to the offices of elder and high priest. However, the bishop usually initiates recommendations for these ordinations."
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbo...od-ordinances-and-blessings/20.7?lang=eng#207

 

[Rescued One]

Did you see the scripture I posted? However they are one God:
(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:43 - 44)

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

When Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he taught that there was only one God. Later he started teaching the doctrine of multiple Gods.

Pearl of Great Price, The Book of Abraham, Chapter 4,
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

 

[He is the way]

With due respect, I don't believe that answers ArmenianJohn's question.

We know from past experience with Mormons here that when you say "one God", you have in mind Mormon-specific theology that differs radically from that of Christianity. Going into detail about how the three are one God is when we get to the substance of the difference between your religion and ours, so you cannot simply post some piece of LDS scripture that does not go into such detail and leave it at that.

Because the three beings of the Mormon trinity are not united in any way that is related to their essence, but are instead united in things like "love" and whatnot, it means something that a Mormon would say that such and such is "Jesus' word" versus being "God's (the Father's) word", so it is right to ask you at this juncture if you believe them to be one God, and if so how.

The Bible lets us know how they are one:

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

There is nothing about essence there. Here is another scripture related to being one with another person:

(New Testament | Matthew 19:5 - 6)

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[dzheremi]

Soooo...the persons of the Mormon trinity are married to one another?

 

[He is the way]

Do they use discernment in calling people to positions and conferring Priesthood offices?

Mormons are to ordain worthy men to have the Melchizedek Priesthood. Are those who don't believe Mormonism worthy?

Worthy brethren may receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and be ordained elders when they are at least 18 years old. The rights and responsibilities of elders are revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 20:38–45; 42:44; 46:2; and 107:11–12. Elders also hold the authority of deacons, teachers, and priests.
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbo...e-church/melchizedek-priesthood?lang=eng&_r=1

Mormonism comes partly from the Doctrine and Covenants.

Are you claiming that the verses below aren't true? Would someone scare the priesthood holders with a lie?

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

"The stake president oversees the conferral of the Melchizedek Priesthood and ordinations to the offices of elder and high priest. However, the bishop usually initiates recommendations for these ordinations."
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbo...od-ordinances-and-blessings/20.7?lang=eng#207

It would depend on whether or not the person knows exactly what they are doing. Jesus said:
(New Testament | Luke 23:34)

34 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

They would have to "altogether turneth therefrom..." There is a similar scripture in the Bible which states:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:32)

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I do not know the mind of a person well enough to know how to judge them. Only God knows someone well enough to be their judge. I have hope that very few people, if any, will fit into this category. I constantly pray for mercy for sinners. God is LOVE.

 

[Rescued One]

It would depend on whether or not the person knows exactly what they are doing. Jesus said:
(New Testament | Luke 23:34)

34 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

They would have to "altogether turneth therefrom..." There is a similar scripture in the Bible which states:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:32)

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I do not know the mind of a person well enough to know how to judge them. Only God knows someone well enough to be their judge. I have hope that very few people, if any, will fit into this category. I constantly pray for mercy for sinners. God is LOVE.

Those verses are not applicable! Tell me why LDS priesthood holders don't know what they're doing!

"To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/discernment-gift-of

“And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.” (D&C 46:27.)"
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/46.8,11

Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual leaders who, by virtue of their callings, are entitled to the gift of discernment to enable them to lead and counsel correctly. "The gift of discernment is essential to the leadership of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I never ordain a bishop or set apart a president of a stake without invoking upon him this divine blessing, that he may read the lives and hearts of his people and call forth the best within them. The gift and power of discernment…[are] essential equipment for every son and daughter of God…. The true gift of discernment is often premonitory. A sense of danger should be heeded to be of value" (Richards, p. 371).
Richards, Stephen L. "The Gifts of the Spirit." IE 53 [May 1950]:371.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Discernment,_Gift_of

 

[He is the way]

When Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he taught that there was only one God. Later he started teaching the doctrine of multiple Gods.

Pearl of Great Price, The Book of Abraham, Chapter 4,
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

The Bible states:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

We only have one Father in heaven and we are ALL His children including Jesus Christ our brother who made it possible for us to return to God the Father by His proxy atonement for our sins. This being said there are Gods many and Lords many as taught in the Bible. They are not our God or our Father. We are adopted through the atonement by Jesus and are His until He gives us back to the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Rescued One]

When Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he taught that there was only one God. Later he started teaching the doctrine of multiple Gods.

 

[He is the way]

Soooo...the persons of the Mormon trinity are married to one another?

No. First we don't believe in the non-Biblical word Trinity as related to God. Consider the following scriptures:

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 11)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Father, Son, and Holy spirit are one God in unity or purpose.

 

[Bumble Bee]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been cleaned. Please remember to present your points respectfully. It is alright to disagree with another member, but please do not use flaming or goading language to do so.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Jane_Doe]

I used to go to an Episcopalian church years ago that was right next to a Mormon church that got alone fine with the congregation being in such close proximity. I think that's typical. Mainline Protestants don't recognize Mormon baptisms as valid, but we have no more antipathy towards Mormons than we do to Jews or Muslims.

I would agree with you that that is the attitude of majority of of Creedal Christians / Creedal Churches. I've actually had many positive experiences at such churches / with such people. However, there is a small minority that of Creedal Christians / Churches that take a more... hostile approach and scream at the top of their lungs. So you run into the most-silent-majority vs screaming-minority situation.

 

[Rescued One]

No. First we don't believe in the non-Biblical word Trinity as related to God.

Whether or not a certain English word is found in the Bible means nothing. The Mormon word telestial isn't in any Bible.

Consider the following scriptures:

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I have considered that verse. For a while He took the position of being lower than the angels, but before He became a man He shared the glory with the Father.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Mormonism:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Joseph Smith's Claim of His First Vision
Brigham City Third Ward, 1911

 

[He is the way]

Whether or not a certain English word is found in the Bible means nothing. The Mormon word telestial isn't in any Bible.

It is not just the word Trinity, it is the whole ideology of the Trinity. Jesus was very clear about how He and the Father are one.

I have considered that verse. For a while He took the position of being lower than the angels, but before He became a man He shared the glory with the Father.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Mormonism:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

John 17:1-5 does not negate or conflict with Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ has a spiritual resurrected body. God the Father does too:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:1 - 2)

1 BEHOLD, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I wonder how many LDS men stay in the church who would honestly rather leave due to the pressures they feel from reading and believing scriptures like these (amongst other things as well), it really is very strong language.

Probably about the same as stay in the RCC for the same reason (see below).

The LDS scripture I was referring to does read like a threat, if a Catholic or a Protestant or an Orthodox man wishes to leave their faith there is no scripture that I know of within those groups threatening them with an eternity of un-forgiviness for leaving (to be clear we are not talking about leaving Christianity altogether here, just a group within it).

Catechism of the Catholic Church

846 "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

 

[RoseCrystal]

Probably about the same as stay in the RCC for the same reason (see below).



Catechism of the Catholic Church

846 "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

To clarify, I specifically said I no of no SCRIPTURE within those groups, the Catechism is not scripture, rather it is a summary of the official teachings of Catholic beliefs including creeds, sacraments, commandments, and prayers, divided into these four sections. Expressing the Catholic interpretation of scripture and tradition.

• Profession of Faith (the Apostles Creed)
• Celebration of the Christian Mystery (the Sacred Liturgy, especially the sacraments)
• Life in Christ (including The Ten Commandments in Roman Catholic theology)
• Christian Prayer (including The Lord's Prayer)

So no I really don't think its the same thing at all.

 

[Phil 1:21]

To clarify, I specifically said I no of no SCRIPTURE within those groups, the Catechism is not scripture, rather it is a summary of the official teachings of Catholic beliefs including creeds, sacraments, commandments, and prayers, divided into these four sections. Expressing the Catholic interpretation of scripture and tradition.

• Profession of Faith (the Apostles Creed)
• Celebration of the Christian Mystery (the Sacred Liturgy, especially the sacraments)
• Life in Christ (including The Ten Commandments in Roman Catholic theology)
• Christian Prayer (including The Lord's Prayer)

So no I really don't think its the same thing at all.

You are correct in that catechism is not scripture. But in the RCC, the Magisterium and Tradition are seen of equal importance to scripture.

The point is, and I say this with the utmost grace, it’s really not fair to criticize a religion for having the same belief as your own.

 

[RoseCrystal]

You are correct in that catechism is not scripture. But in the RCC, the Magisterium and Tradition are seen of equal importance to scripture.

But its not scripture - I said scripture, and I remind you that this thread is about how LDS men who leave are viewed by the LDS church - not things you think are similarities between mormonism and Catholicism.

If you would like to debate what you believe are errors in Catholic teaching, then make a thread about it.

 

[RoseCrystal]

The point is, and I say this with the utmost grace, it’s really not fair to criticize a religion for having the same belief as your own.

And mormonism certainly does not have the same beliefs as Catholicism.

 

[He is the way]

And mormonism certainly does not have the same beliefs as Catholicism.

We may not have the same exact beliefs, but since we do believe in the Bible many of the things we believe are the same.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And mormonism certainly does not have the same beliefs as Catholicism.

Apparently they both believe those who leave are not saved. A belief for which you, being a Catholic, criticized them.