LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[He is the way]

In Mormonism, eternal life is given only to those who obey and earn that blessing.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.18-19


3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

The Bible is clear about who will be saved and who won't.

 

[He is the way]

1 John 2
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

As dzheremi told you, you have no example of Christians saying that we should sin.

Televangelists are a bad example.

 

[He is the way]

If you want to accuse me of posting scriptures out of context then you need to show where and how I have done so. Just stating it doesn't make it so. You have yet to show where I have done such a thing.


You're right, a person should not sin AFTER receiving grace.

I'm glad you pasted that verse because it proves my point. Notice it says "because we are not under the law". Directly stated - we are not under law. It goes on to say "but under grace". We are not under law, but under grace. For that reason we should not sin, but it is clear that we are NOT under law but we ARE under grace.


Not sure what you intend to say with this passage - it is pointing out that people who have knowledge of the law and grace yet choose law cannot be under grace. That goes against your religion's assertion that grace comes with/after works of the law. You're defeating your own religion's teaching.


Correct. And with works nobody can be saved. You've already said that grace is stipulated by works, so when you say "without grace no one would be saved" you are saying that without WORKS no one would be saved, and that is wrong. Salvation is by grace, not works. Works are the fruit or outcome of salvation by grace. Works come after grace.

Mormon religion teaches in 2 Nephi 25:23:
"...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (emphasis mine)
Mormonism teaches we must do FIRST and then AFTER that the "grace" is received. The problem there is that if the works are done FIRST to establish a worthiness then what comes next is not GRACE, it is WAGES.

The Bible teaches that the Wages of sin is DEATH. Our works are sin. Nobody is sinless. The Bible teaches our wages are death, not Grace. The Bible teaches that Grace comes by faith through hearing and not of works, therefore Grace absolves us of the wages we deserve.

Mormonism teaches "worthiness" - that you must work and become "worthy" to GET from God. Mormonism teaches that their god is a magical genie and if you rub the lamp the right way you can control him. You want eternal life? Do this and this. You want to become a god yourself? Do this and this to be worthy. You want a blessing? Do a good work. You want more blessings? Do more good works.

Nothing is a free gift in Mormonism. Everything must be earned. Everything must be paid for, even if in part. Nothing is given. There is no Grace.

Mormonism takes their works-based system and sells it with lies, with false advertising.

Imagine if you were told that a new store opened up where everything was FREE! You go to that store and pick up a few items, and just to double check you ask a clerk "Is everything really free here?" The clerk says "Yes, sir! Look at the price tag - FREE! Everything in our store is free! No item in here is not free! It's all FREE!" So you get to the front and a checkout register clerk stops you and says "Excuse me sir, we just need to get your portion of the payment." You say, "Wait, I thought these items were FREE?" The clerk says, "Oh, they absolutely are! All items are FREE entirely, after all you can pay for them!"

See how they are just distorting and twisting the word "Free" in that scenario? A court of law would find them guilty of lying and would punish them. Well, the mormons play this game but they don't have to face a court of law. The mormons proclaim salvation by grace but then they add the stipulation, "after all you can do." And that stipulation negates the claim of grace, just as the stipulation "after all you can pay" negates the claim of an item being "free".

Mormon gospel is a false one and is the lie of Satan. Other than Christianity, all other religions teach that one must be worthy to receive good things, be it an afterlife, a blessing in this or the afterlife, etc. Mormonism is in that boat. Mormonism says "You must be worthy" for EVERYTHING, EVEN salvation. Mormonism is not Christian in any way, they simply steal all the Christian terminology in an effort to dupe and swindle people into joining their false religion.

Good luck finding a store where everything is free. In case you didn't notice not everyone gets eternal life, and not everyone goes to the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Good luck finding a store where everything is free. In case you didn't notice not everyone gets eternal life, and not everyone goes to the kingdom of heaven.

Bishop's Storehouse - is everything free there? Someone who walks in there to get free stuff - do they tell them it's "after all they can pay"??? Is that another mormon scam?

Or have I stumbled onto an example of a store where everything is actually free?

You tell me.

Be careful not to contradict your own president on this:
“While [bishops’] storehouses provide many of the same services as any retail food store, not one has a cash register. … These are goods that money cannot buy. No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need.”

—President Thomas S. Monson

 

[Rescued One]

The Bible is clear about who will be saved and who won't.

John 3 tells us.

 

[Rescued One]

Bishop's Storehouse - is everything free there? Someone who walks in there to get free stuff - do they tell them it's "after all they can pay"??? Is that another mormon scam?

Or have I stumbled onto an example of a store where everything is actually free?

You tell me.

Be careful not to contradict your own president on this:
“While [bishops’] storehouses provide many of the same services as any retail food store, not one has a cash register. … These are goods that money cannot buy. No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need.”

—President Thomas S. Monson

However you have to be approved to get those goods!

 

[Rescued One]

Televangelists are a bad example.

Televangelists? I thought we were discussing Mormonism. Do you watch televangelists?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

However you have to be approved to get those goods!

So we see the "after all you can do/pay" principle in effect here too, then! President Monson said "No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need" but in reality there is a price tag, non-monetary, a condition/stipulation that you must be approved (considered worthy).

 

[Rescued One]

So we see the "after all you can do/pay" principle in effect here too, then! President Monson said "No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need" but in reality there is a price tag, non-monetary, a condition/stipulation that you must be approved (considered worthy).

(Doctrine and Covenants 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.)

The bishop must approve all orders. He should review orders and communicate any problems to the preparer. Counselors in the bishopric can also approve orders as a contingency. Orders that are approved by counselors in lieu of the bishop must eventually also be reviewed and approved by the bishop. An order approved by a counselor can be filled by the storehouse prior to the bishop’s final review and approval.
https://www.lds.org/help/support/food-order-guide-leader?lang=eng

 

[dzheremi]

What I want to know is what makes these people themselves worthy to judge another's worthiness for any of this stuff: the store, the temple recommend, and so on. At least when it comes to Christian bishops, you can say that they have served at lower levels in the Church (i.e., as priests) and hence know how a parish is to be run because they've done it before, so it makes sense they would then be trusted to oversee parishes within a diocese (since they've been there before). But if Wikipedia is right that the role of the Mormon bishop is more analogous to a parish priest...well...my parish priest does not get to determine whether or not I am worthy to receive charity, or whether or not I can enter a cathedral, and so on.

(There are some aspects of life where the parish priest is to be petitioned on account of his position and authority, as when staying in a monastery overnight as a pilgrim, but that is because canonically you are being transferred from being the priest's responsibility to the monastery's, which may involve even going into a different diocese, so you need to have the priest, as one who knows you and is your spiritual father, vouch for you.)

 

[Rescued One]

What I want to know is what makes these people themselves worthy to judge another's worthiness for any of this stuff: the store, the temple recommend, and so on. At least when it comes to Christian bishops, you can say that they have served at lower levels in the Church (i.e., as priests) and hence know how a parish is to be run because they've done it before, so it makes sense they would then be trusted to oversee parishes within a diocese (since they've been there before). But if Wikipedia is right that the role of the Mormon bishop is more analogous to a parish priest...well...my parish priest does not get to determine whether or not I am worthy to receive charity, or whether or not I can enter a cathedral, and so on.

(There are some aspects of life where the parish priest is to be petitioned on account of his position and authority, as when staying in a monastery overnight as a pilgrim, but that is because canonically you are being transferred from being the priest's responsibility to the monastery's, which may involve even going into a different diocese, so you need to have the priest, as one who knows you and is your spiritual father, vouch for you.)

There are requirements (and paper work) to being approved by the bishop.
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/welfare/NeedsResrcSup.pdf

How do Coptic Orthodox determine whether or not to provide charity? Do members have priority over non-members? I'm just curious and uninformed.

 

[dzheremi]

No, not at all. The determination of who gets charity is who needs it, not anything about the people themselves.

For instance, HG Bishop Angaelos of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the UK has stood apart from the right-wing Christian approach to immigration in Europe, saying that we must not help people according to their religious background, but according to their need: http://www.pravmir.com/bishop-angae...ng-we-cannot-only-support-christian-refugees/

 

[He is the way]

Bishop's Storehouse - is everything free there? Someone who walks in there to get free stuff - do they tell them it's "after all they can pay"??? Is that another mormon scam?

Or have I stumbled onto an example of a store where everything is actually free?

You tell me.

Be careful not to contradict your own president on this:
“While [bishops’] storehouses provide many of the same services as any retail food store, not one has a cash register. … These are goods that money cannot buy. No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need.”

—President Thomas S. Monson

Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. Jesus had to pay for the sins of the repentant. People are expected to work for the provisions they receive at the storehouse if they can. People who are baptized for the remission of sins are expected to do works meet for repentance:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:7 - 8)

7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


(New Testament | Acts 26:20)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

[He is the way]

Televangelists? I thought we were discussing Mormonism. Do you watch televangelists?

I believe we are discussing Mormonism compared to the people who are registered as Christians. Televangelists would be classified as Christians here. I don't watch televangelists but they are in the news quite often.

 

[He is the way]

(Doctrine and Covenants 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.)

The bishop must approve all orders. He should review orders and communicate any problems to the preparer. Counselors in the bishopric can also approve orders as a contingency. Orders that are approved by counselors in lieu of the bishop must eventually also be reviewed and approved by the bishop. An order approved by a counselor can be filled by the storehouse prior to the bishop’s final review and approval.
https://www.lds.org/help/support/food-order-guide-leader?lang=eng

You quoted
(Doctrine and Covenants 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.)

There are examples of this throughout the Bible. The flood is an example of what happens to the disobedient and the obedient ( Noah and some of his family) Jesus told the apostles they had to fast to cast out evil spirits. Samson could not cut his hair. John the Baptist was given rules he had to keep and there are many more examples.

 

[He is the way]

Here in Utah the LDS Church and the Catholic Church work together to feed the homeless and have done so for many years.

 

[Ironhold]

Bishop's Storehouse - is everything free there? Someone who walks in there to get free stuff - do they tell them it's "after all they can pay"??? Is that another mormon scam?

Or have I stumbled onto an example of a store where everything is actually free?

You tell me.

Be careful not to contradict your own president on this:
“While [bishops’] storehouses provide many of the same services as any retail food store, not one has a cash register. … These are goods that money cannot buy. No price tag is put on the time, effort, and love so generously contributed to the common good of those in need.”

—President Thomas S. Monson

Nutshell:

The Bishop's Storehouse is part of the church's welfare system.

If a person is in financial need, they can appeal to the church for help. A person *could* just walk in off of the street and ask for it, but the fact that the bishop of that particular congregation has the right to examine the person's financials usually dissuades people who simply want theirs.

Yes, that happens. Actually witnessed it once. Some random person called up the congregation I was in, said "I heard you have a welfare system", and got upset when told that we weren't simply doling things out at random.

Once the bishop has examined the financials, they can then determine what assistance a person needs. In some instances, what the person needs is someone to tell them that they're not living within their means and that they need to make some hard choices. In other instances, what the person needs is help managing their money; they do make enough, but they're not staying on top of their bills and other expenses.

If it's determined that a person really is falling short despite their best efforts, then the bishop makes a judgement call from there as to how best to help them. It may be that the church will pay one or more of the person's bills that month, giving them some breathing room. It may be that the bishop will authorize them to draw supplies from the Storehouse, thereby giving them food and household goods to supplement what they have (if anything).

Much of the material in the Bishop's Storehouse is produced by Deseret Industries or another company that the church has key ownership stake in. Deseret Industries product is only available through the Storehouse, and so there's an attached reputation to it; basically, if someone spots DI products, it's understood what's going on.

Some of the material - including food items like certain types of dried fruit - is actually produced by the Seventh-Day Adventists. The SDAs can produce these items more efficiently than we can, and in exchange we help them handle the logistics for their own aid programs.

The rest is purchased as close to local for the individual Storehouse as possible. This is usually things like produce, dairy, and bread, things that are perishable and need constant replacement. For other items, like toiletries and personal care items, the church goes with whatever national brand will cut them the best bulk discount.

Under certain circumstances, the bishop does have the right to ask whoever is taking this assistance to perform volunteer work in exchange. Thing is, this volunteer work can actually go on a resume, making the person more attractive to potential employers.

 

[Ironhold]

What I want to know is what makes these people themselves worthy to judge another's worthiness for any of this stuff: the store, the temple recommend, and so on.

The storehouse is "Do you have a legitimate financial need, or are you simply living beyond your means due to poor spending habits?".

Sadly, there are people who will go bust trying to live large, then ask the church for help when the bills come due. Hence the requirement that people meet with their bishop and present their financials for inspection.

 

[BigDaddy4]

People are expected to work for the provisions they receive at the storehouse if they can.

So it's not charity, it's work. After all they can do...

 

[dzheremi]

The storehouse is "Do you have a legitimate financial need, or are you simply living beyond your means due to poor spending habits?".

Sadly, there are people who will go bust trying to live large, then ask the church for help when the bills come due. Hence the requirement that people meet with their bishop and present their financials for inspection.

I can see the practical usefulness of this, but the idea of making any churchman into an on-the-spot financial auditor/consultant before deciding to help people is a bit unnerving, to say the least. It seems especially odd when the LDS church itself hasn't publicly disclosed its financial statements in the U.S. since 1959. Even the recent release of specific financial information earlier this year (which must be seen as anomalous, since it's apparently a newsworthy event) was in response to questions about just what it is doing, not a matter of routine and principled financial transparency, as the LDS church seems not to operate by such a thing.

Related:

2017 SLC Tribune story - "Historian digs into the hidden world of Mormon finances", etc.: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/loc...from-losing-money-to-making-money-lots-of-it/

May 30, 2018 SLC Tribune story "MormonLeaks: LDS Church connected to at least $32B in U.S. Stock Market", which states "The church — officially titled The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — does not not publish the details of its finances, but the website MormonLeaks.io released information it says connects the church to 13 LLC companies that collectively owned the stocks at the end of 2017 and provides the collective value at $ 32,769,914,000..."

Hmmm...

More earned 'gifts' from Mormonism, wrapped up in a big ol' package of "Do as we say, not as we do"...and that's apparently the case even as they try to 'demystify' their finances!

Tell me again what makes such people worthy of looking into others' finances? Even if someone shows up at their storehouse after having squandered their money, I bet the person would not have done so by, say, opening a $1.5 billion dollar shopping mall...