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Age of the earth, why is it relevant?!

Anguspure

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There is no such thing as time as humans know it - time is an evolution of events coupled onto a dimensional space. It is not always linear, or one-directional.
On one theory.

Another theory is that time is the observation of cause and effect. It only appears to be analogue because of the sheer number of simultaneous cause and effect observations.

With that said, if you take Genesis 1 literally, the heaven and earth were created before anything else in this plane of existence. If you choose to take it figuratively, or if you choose to ignore that the heaven and earth were created before anything else, then the entire time issue is moot.

But, this still ignores the Hebrew words and implications of each word used in Genesis 1. If there is no sun/stars yet, how can there be light (a common question)? Look at what "or" means in Hebrew in the context of an absence of what we call light. Why was there a separation of light and darkness before luminaries were made and the earth was filled with matter? Look up what "choshek" means in the context. Why are there days when there was no sun to count a sunrise/sunset/moonrise/moonset? Look up what "yom" means in the context of missing historically human timepieces (e.g. a sun.)

A deeper look into Genesis 1 will show that there is a lot more going on than than the Christian status quo. And, it isn't about promoting a young earth. In fact, the earth's age isn't important at all; what happened after it was made (before time itself as humans know it) is what is important.
Have you ever considered that the Sun and the Planets may have been created seperately and brought into the system subsequently?

Certainly the nebular hypothesis has a big problem with angular momentum.

 
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Kaon

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On one theory.

Another theory is that time is the observation of cause and effect. It only appears to be analogue because of the sheer number of simultaneous cause and effect observations.

It would be interesting to have a thread on the philosophy of time, and then discuss the predictive philosophy of how quickly it would be shut down (based on certain things said).


Have you ever considered that the Sun and the Planets may have been created seperately and brought into the system subsequently?

Certainly the nebular hypothesis has a big problem with angular momentum.


It is an interesting idea, especially the helical model of the solar system. That model actually works much better (mathematically) that the standard elliptical view of orbiting bodies. With respect, as a mathematician I am not going to cosign (pun intended) to something I cannot prove uniquely. There is a lot about astronomy and relativity that poses severe problems - some of which QTFT answers quite elegantly, but the more we see the refinement in elegance, the more we realize our solutions are rudimentary at best.

What I can see is on this planet; I cannot reproduce or replicate a solar system or universe. And, even replication in the lab would only be a snapshot of the model since the universe is dynamic.

My suspicion about the nature of the universe, as it were, lines up with a literal review of Genesis. And, let's be honest: it shouldn't be a problem to entertain that things were made "out of order" in terms of terrestrial physics is concerned; we haven't been learned long enough to definitively and assuredly
 
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SkyWriting

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Okay, so I'm going to start off by stating my position just so we're clear. I believe the "new earth" theory is nonsense.

However, the purpose of this post isn't to debate the age of the earth, but rather, I'm trying to sort out why it matters how old the earth is?? It seems in my experience, new earthers tend to be obsessively dogmatic in holding this position. It's not sufficient that simply they hold this worldview, it's necessary everyone else does as well. Is there an underlying philosophical position I'm missing here?

Yes. Young Earth Creationists are taught that "Old Earth"
is a new assault on Christianity by "Evil" scientists. I was
in their camp meetings, so I know what they teach.
 
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SkyWriting

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As Yahweh says, CHOOSE TODAY who you will serve.

THAT is what Yahweh says is important (and the way to LIFE).

Serve other people.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."

In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.
 
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Halbhh

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On one theory.

Another theory is that time is the observation of cause and effect. It only appears to be analogue because of the sheer number of simultaneous cause and effect observations.


Have you ever considered that the Sun and the Planets may have been created seperately and brought into the system subsequently?

Certainly the nebular hypothesis has a big problem with angular momentum.


Yep, that's what planetary orbits about a star look like relative to the rest frame of the Milky Way galaxy -- spirals -- but it's conserving angular momentum just fine. There are interesting open questions about how planetary systems form...And we've lately gotten telescopic images of systems currently forming!
 
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Anguspure

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Yep, that's what planetary orbits about a star look like relative to the rest frame of the Milky Way galaxy -- spirals -- but it's conserving angular momentum just fine. There are interesting open questions about how planetary systems form...And we've lately gotten telescopic images of systems currently forming!
The problem with angular momentum in the Solar system is that the mass and the momentum don't add up. The Sun makes up something like 98% of the mass and yet only has 2% of the momentum.

This does not make sense if we are looking at a closed system as the nebular hypothesis would suggest, but does work if we are looking at an open system.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Understanding the age of the Earth is very important because to deny that the Earth is actually young is to deny the Bible. The bible in multiple places says that the Earth is actually much younger than people think. For example in 2 of the gospels we get a complete account of Jesus's family line up until Jesus. Less than 100 family members are written down and we know Jesus was born a little over 2,000 years ago. That means that the Earth is about 10,000 years old. To say that the Earth is millions of years old is to call the bible a fairy tale. Because the Bible says how old the Earth is from Genesis to Revelation. Understanding the true age of the Earth is crucial for Christians because it helps Christians grow. A Christian who believes in an old Earth is an uneducated Christian and is just like a Christian that believes in evolution. They just don't read their bibles and write off all that the Bible tells us about creation to be nonsense. Not true at all.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Christian Gaia hypothesis ???

if many today believe a feminine supra natural Earth goddess being, vaguely as depicted in the movie Avatar, can nurture the Earth biosphere over long time periods to maintain life on earth...

read:http://www.newsweek.com/gaia-hypoth...85?amp=1&utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

then might it not be equally possible that life on earth has been shepherded along by God in heaven?
 
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Tetra

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Understanding the age of the Earth is very important because to deny that the Earth is actually young is to deny the Bible. The bible in multiple places says that the Earth is actually much younger than people think. For example in 2 of the gospels we get a complete account of Jesus's family line up until Jesus. Less than 100 family members are written down and we know Jesus was born a little over 2,000 years ago. That means that the Earth is about 10,000 years old. To say that the Earth is millions of years old is to call the bible a fairy tale. Because the Bible says how old the Earth is from Genesis to Revelation. Understanding the true age of the Earth is crucial for Christians because it helps Christians grow. A Christian who believes in an old Earth is an uneducated Christian and is just like a Christian that believes in evolution. They just don't read their bibles and write off all that the Bible tells us about creation to be nonsense. Not true at all.
I believe evolution to be true, the earth is old, and creation is not nonsense. I also read my Bible regularly.
 
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Devin P

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Here we go with the dogma... My man, how on earth do you know how the bible was meant to be taken??? Don't you think that is very presumptuous of you?? You claim that its the word of god but within the book there is incest, genocide, racism, slavery, and a host of other questionable social norms.
Well, because. When someone reads the bible, apart from doctrinal interpretation from any specific church there to skew interpretation, the only way to take it is literally. It's simple. When you read the bible, and you don't try to judge what you're reading through the glasses provided to you by any one church's denominational lenses, it becomes incredibly easy. It's easy because the bible is nothing more than a "do this" and a "don't do this" type of book. There's a simplicity about it, that's refreshing. We know not to listen to any one denomination, because they're nothing more than man-made tradition telling us how we should see scripture, when the scripture shows us how we should see scripture.

Regarding the rest of the things you mentioned, I'm sorry you feel that way about it. There really isn't the issues you feel there are. It's a story of a Creator, that is aware that there are wicked entities looking to hurt His people. He gives them instructions on how to overcome these entities, and people that submit and sell themselves out to these entities He destroys, so that all can be saved. Each of those issues would take a lot of time to explain in context, so if you truly do care about the opportunity to learn, regardless of whether or not you feel I have anything I can share with you, mention a specific topic of the many you listed, and I'll explain why the bible justifies itself as a truly loving, and preserving action regarding it, and how it's often taken out of context to appear hateful.

To say that the bible is a book of stories actually helps it in terms of logic and contemporary social acceptance. But when you say its literal then that presents a lot of problems that force you and many others to spend a considerable amount of time trying to justify that claim. For instance, the flood story is scientifically impossible. How could geographically-bound animals like the penguin, koala, kangaroo, etc. make it onto the ark in the Arabian region? To accept this story as fact forces one to deny common sense and logic. And god is an allegory for energy. If he was real then all of the other thousands of gods that mankind claimed to have existed were real too.
I'd disagree that it'd help it in terms of logic. Modern social acceptance for sure though.

It's a story that sounds foolish to the world, so by the standards we've developed over the last stretch of human history, of course it sounds foolish, but it's supposed to

And yes, and no at the same time. The other "gods" that mankind claimed to have existed were real to an extent. They were entities that led them astray, into traditions apart from the truth of God. Their whole purpose was to usurp worship from יהוה or "YHWH". This is why when we study all pantheons from around the world, and throughout history, they are all the same. The same stories, just with different names, all over. Egyptian, Sumerian, Grecian, Roman, Nordic, etc, etc, etc. It's all the same, just with different names. They all had the same purpose, the same symbols (mostly), the same worship customs, the same family structure, the same basic wrongs (incest regarding the same family members), etc. They even almost all (aside from some asian countries) had the same exact constellations, with the same exact stories, but again, different names. The constellation we know as hercules, was known Hebraically speaking, as the Messiah, or Yeshua (Jesus). Things like that, same story, they both killed the serpent or dragon that plagued mankind.
 
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Kenny'sID

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it would help if one explained.

I have explained

You are more intent on slighting me, perhaps a weak form of ad hominem, than actually addressing the substance of this discussion.

First, I don't know how you get the idea you were slighted..help me out on that please so I'll know if I owe apology. And I certainly have addressed the substance here...not sure where that comes from either?

It's simply my opinion, an opinion that I have no doubt is shared by many, that you are adding so many unfounded "could have beens" that you end up pulling something from scripture that is far from the simple story being told there. In a case like this, I think people in general do that in order to make the bible fit evolution. As I said before, had there never been mention of evolution, the theories on what the Bible says there would likely never have come about.

I've seen what you are offing as explanation before, but I still feel the same way about it....have no concrete reason not to.

You can ague anything I say? Of course you can, always the way with anything anywhere, but I personally choose not sway from what the Bible says simply. What you do, is up to you.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Here we go with the dogma... My man, how on earth do you know how the bible was meant to be taken??? Don't you think that is very presumptuous of you??

Presumptuous to take the bible for exactly what it says, and not going hog wild in adding our own ideas?

Not at all.
 
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Kenny'sID

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What did I say was nonsense in the Bible??

I'm very sorry, I didn't see the "not" in your post...apologies.

I suppose the way it read, as in you believe creation and evolution, is what threw me, though I do understand the meaning behind the comment.
 
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Halbhh

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Understanding the age of the Earth is very important because to deny that the Earth is actually young is to deny the Bible. The bible in multiple places says that the Earth is actually much younger than people think. For example in 2 of the gospels we get a complete account of Jesus's family line up until Jesus. Less than 100 family members are written down and we know Jesus was born a little over 2,000 years ago. That means that the Earth is about 10,000 years old. To say that the Earth is millions of years old is to call the bible a fairy tale. Because the Bible says how old the Earth is from Genesis to Revelation. Understanding the true age of the Earth is crucial for Christians because it helps Christians grow. A Christian who believes in an old Earth is an uneducated Christian and is just like a Christian that believes in evolution. They just don't read their bibles and write off all that the Bible tells us about creation to be nonsense. Not true at all.

In the Bible verse 1 reads this way --

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Notice something about the time duration?

Right -- there is no indication at all about how much time passed before Earth, when the heavens -- the Universe -- was being formed. We simply do not know from this chapter.

Also, there is no indication of how long the great raw mass of Earth was forming.

It's not in the scripture.

Might some think that time was only zero seconds, instantaneous? I ask because it's hard to imagine what people think if they are guessing the Earth only existed just a moment before the first Day of Genesis chapter 1.

10 seconds? 2 hours? How long?

10,000 years? See? We are not told how long the Heavens or the Earth was forming before the first Day of Creation.


Why?

Here's why -- because it's totally trivial -- time duration, mere numerical amounts of hours or years is utterly trivial in the face of time and God's power and majesty.

God is able. He is able when He created Nature to make it actually good -- it works. Instead of having to make each molecule of water, God made physics and water naturally happened by His design, we can readily see, if we only look/examine (in this case using chemistry and electron microscopy). We have discovered some of what He has done in the sciences of chemistry, physics, biochemistry. Anyone can learn about some of what God has done if they only try, only look and learn.

Nature, His design, works!

Ergo, He didn't have to make the molecules of Earth one at a time. It appears the raw material of Earth formed in the heavens by His design of Nature, naturally, by His plan, as Creator of all (not only life on Earth, but all).

But in the sciences we are learning how remarkably perfect this solar system is for a planet like ours, how much more rare than we knew only 20 years ago. Extraordinary perfect for life here on Earth. An unusually stable star without too much dangerous flaring. A perfect and very unusual large moon to aid life here greatly through tides and help make natural abundance of near-shore sea life. A very protective large gas giant planet Jupiter in a good place to help reduce the asteroid bombardment Earth would likely suffer without Jupiter where it is. But big planets tend to tug small planets and make their orbits change. Not for us! We have a perfect canceling out of this effect by the just-right configuration of planets in our system. The list goes on and on.
 
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SkyWriting

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Understanding the age of the Earth is very important because to deny that the Earth is actually young is to deny the Bible. The bible in multiple places says that the Earth is actually much younger than people think. ..... A Christian who believes in an old Earth is an uneducated Christian and is just like a Christian that believes in evolution. They just don't read their bibles and write off all that the Bible tells us about creation to be nonsense. Not true at all.

Old, according to much clearer statements in scripture
that don't require a calculator or abacus.


Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal
mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low.

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents,
up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

Psalm 76:4 Thou enlightenest wonderfully from the everlasting hills. .

Habakkuk 3:6 When he stops, the earth shakes. When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters
the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Micah 6:2 "Hear, you mountains,
the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
foundations of the earth.

 
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Traveling teacher

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it just seems easier to keep up with

this is off the top of my head!!!!
easy to memoirize

adam - about 4000bc

noah and ark -add 1500 years...2500 bc

abraham - add 500 years ----2000 bc

moses - add 500 years ----- 1500bc

david - add 500 ---- 1000bc

babylon exile - add 500 -- - 500bc

Messiah - add 500 -------- -0

crusades to take jerusalem - add 1000 --1000ad

columbus and luther - add 500 ---- 1500 ad

state of Israel, city of Jerusalem -add 500 --2000ad

this is obviously aproximate within 50 years either way
 
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Jamsie

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I have explained

You have not in any way shown where I have twisted scripture or made it to "fit" evolution. The interpretation comes directly from the exact wording... and you have not specifically addressed anything directly but in a general sense.


First, I don't know how you get the idea you were slighted..help me out on that please so I'll know if I owe apology. And I certainly have addressed the substance here...not sure where that comes from either?

In addition to "overthinking" here is your critique of what I proposed: "Reason can get out of hand", "some want to lean unto their own understanding", "bible is stretched", ".../no longer the truth", "we are smart", "unreasonable"... hardly offers any substantive defense or constructive criticism. You have not in any way directly addressed what was put forth but rather you simply dismissed in a vague manner without substance.


It's simply my opinion, an opinion that I have no doubt is shared by many, that you are adding so many unfounded "could have beens" that you end up pulling something from scripture that is far from the simple story being told there. In a case like this, I think people in general do that in order to make the bible fit evolution. As I said before, had there never been mention of evolution, the theories on what the Bible says there would likely never have come about.

Can you show me the list of "could have beens" aside from addressing Adam. (And you never commented on the account in Gen. 1 and then in Gen. 2...which to my reading poses legitimate questions concerning Adam) As you are aware the argumentum ad populum fails, and there are "many" Christians who believe in OEC and evolution, including myriad world renowned Christian professors, Biblical Scholars, apologists, etc. One should approach scripture with humility, as it does not address the specifics on many subjects that we take for granted.

You can ague anything I say? Of course you can, always the way with anything anywhere, but I personally choose not sway from what the Bible says simply. What you do, is up to you.

If at some point you actually choose to specifically address the subject we can have a discussion:

What does "Let the land produce..." mean? How is it not mediate creation? Was the command sufficient to create? If the command was sufficient then why would it be necessary to qualify as "God made"? Gen. 1:3 is clearly immediate - And God said, Let there be light and there was light"...So if all creation was immediate why was this pattern not followed as in And God said, "Let there be living creatures and there was living creatures"? Why the often use of "And it was so" after the command to created matter? The command was to the "land"/earth/dust and we are told that man and animal are from the same substance what does that suggest? Do you not see a structure of creation as was noted with Gen. 1? We know that plant, animal, and human life involves a process why is it so anathema that this same process was from the beginning?

So rather then simply countering with "overthinking", "stretching...", "leaning on own understanding", etc. simply answer the questions posed.
 
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