Patriotism & the Church

[W2L]

Right and we shouldn't be correct? That's our own fault and Paul addressed this in the meat offered to idols. Its the perfect scripture for this situation.

Explain please.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Said it is not of this world. Didn't say it was not in this world. Since it is in this world what he must mean is it does not operate the same way the worlds kingdoms operate.
Another little article I wrote called: What is the Government of God?
http://wordservice.org/Government of God/gg1001.htm

I think it is a fallacy to say that God allowed the founding of the USA was in anyway to demonstrate God's approval any more than than God allowing Sodom , Gomorah , Eygypt , Babylon , etc. God does not have a democracy for starters . His is a Kingdom of subjects . ( No rights and no vote . ) Secondly the Kingdom of God is bottom up . Jesus said that the rulers of the gentiles exercise authority over them but with you it will not be so but whosoever will be the greatest , let him be the least . It is a Kingdom of utter humility and awe at God's mercy and love toward ungodly people .
There was a democracy once I believe when Saul said that the people wanted to offer the best of the sheep as a sacrifice and Saul listened to the people . No , we have no biblical foundation that the deist ( they believed in God ) and humanist ( they believed in the rights of man ) were acting out of love for Jesus Christ . History can not even demonstrate that this was the case . We are and have always been a secular nation . ( We were founded primarily over the right of self rule . ) I am well versed in history ....pilgrims , etc. but again , no scriptural basis for us rebelling against the King . Additionally I do not see how patriotism can lead to humility ...seems to me it always lead to pride . We are free to deny the truth but for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion , that they might believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth . Christian history is littered with instances of crucifying the truth so that tradition be not harmed . And the Truth ? He did not resist them.

 

[rjs330]

We should be careful how we involve ourselves in politics. Its a very slippery slope.

Can't argue with you there. That's just being wise. But it's not sinful to be involved.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I think you do not have to worry. The only state religions these days are the Catholics and the Muslims. The Protestants don't do that that I know of.

Well if the protestants vote , then the church is in politics unless the body of Jesus Christ is only His body on Sunday mornings . When was Jesus actually Jesus ...only when at the synagogue ? No , the protestants mix religion and politics every time they vote unless they become unreligious while they vote and then put Jesus back on . I often wonder , who would Jesus vote for ..who would the King of all things relinquish His power to ?

 

[W2L]

Can't argue with you there. That's just being wise. But it's not sinful to be involved.

It depends on what we're involved in. Economics for example. Both sides are worried about money but God teaches us not to worry, but to seek the kingdom and God will supply our needs. Thats what we should be practicing and preaching.

 

[W2L]

Just lost a good friend over this thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We are an international church and never raise some one group’s nationality above the others, so no, this NEVER happens. I personally have lived outside the US for thirty years and it is clear to me that God is not blessing America. It only works to think so if one never leaves.

Interesting.
Let me just quote this part of your post:
I would tend to agree.
I thought about Christopher Columbus.
I find it interesting that C C' first name starts with "Christ....".

He was of course a Christian, but what if it would have been a non-Christian that discovered America,
so I would have to think that God had a hand in this.
I looked up a bit of the history of him and his voyage:

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/columbus-and-christianity-did-you-know

CONTRARY TO LEGEND, Columbus did not sail to prove the earth was round. Most educated Europeans and mariners already knew that.

Columbus estimated the size of the Atlantic Ocean partially from reading his Bible. He had read in the Second Book of Esdras (in the Apocrypha) that God created the world in seven parts, six of them dry land and the seventh water. He thus calculated that the ocean separating Portugal from Cipangu (Japan) was one-seventh of the earth’s circumference, or about 2,400 miles.
He figured that by sailing 100 miles per day, he could reach the Indies in 30 days.

Unlike many sailors then and now, Christopher Columbus never used profanity.

During Columbus’s voyages, the ships’ crews observed religious rites.
Every time they turned the half-hour glass (their primary means of keeping time), they cried: “Blessed be the hour of our Savior’s birth / blessed be the Virgin Mary who bore him / and blessed be John who baptized him.”
They finished each day by singing vespers together (although reportedly they sang out of tune).

Not until his third voyage did Columbus actually land on the American mainland. Seeing four rivers flowing from the landmass, he believed he had encountered the Garden of Eden. He died in 1506 unaware he had landed thousands of miles short of the Orient.

Irish and French Catholics have argued that Columbus, who “brought the Christian faith to half the world,” should be named a saint.
Though the move had the approval of Pope Pius IX (reign 1846–1878), Columbus was never canonized because he fathered an illegitimate child, and there was no proof he had performed a miracle.........Can't argue with that..........

Anyone want to respond to the post above or this thread just for private debates?
Thanks

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just lost a good friend over this thread.

That happens..........and why I don't get involved in much debating on GT.....

 

[W2L]

Anyone want to respond to the post above or this thread just for private debates?
Thanks

I dont believe in canonization of saints.

 

[W2L]

That happens..........

Politics.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I dont believe in canonization of saints.

neither do I........
That wasn't what that article was mainly about......

 

[W2L]

neither do I........
That wasn't what that article was mainly about......

Im sorry, thats the only thought i had when i read it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Politics.

I also don't get involved in political debates

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/general-politics.1250/

 

[W2L]

I don't also get involved in political debates

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/general-politics.1250/

Its like getting in the mud to get clean.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Right and we shouldn't be correct? That's our own fault and Paul addressed this in the meat offered to idols. Its the perfect scripture for this situation.

Brother .we actually have many scriptural admonitions against what we have done for over two hundered years ...Paul warned us ..If any man cause divisions contrary to the doctrines that you have received from me , mark that man and avoid him for he does not serve the Lord Jesus Christ but his own belly ...This would be men like Thomas Paine , Thomas Jefferson , who railed against the King Of England ..read the declaration , Patrick Henry ..Give me liberty or give me death ... All you do in word or deed , do in the name of Jesus Christ ..(not country nor for the sake of liberty, nor to fight communism or any of the other marketing campaigns pitched to us in order to deceive .
Lastly , we are told not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers ( which is NOT written in the context of marriage although most people are not familiar enough with the bible to understand this .) To get a truthful answer we must ask questions ....is this not a country of believers and unbelievers yoked and united together under a common flag ? Those who hate Christ with those who love him ? What is the truth ? This country, I believe,, is about itself ..not Jesus Christ . Patriotism in the living body of Jesus Christ ? Which joint ?

 

[amariselle]

It does cause unnecessary division. You see it in this thread. We are divided over singing about america in church? Are you serious?

Exactly. How could anyone say otherwise?

And how should we expect a fellow believer, a brother or sister in Christ to feel if we are singing songs that praise our nation if they are not from that nation?

We most definitely run the risk of creating division where there is none.

Our identity and allegiance should be in Christ Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

W2L said: ↑
I dont believe in canonization of saints.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
neither do I........
That wasn't what that article was mainly about......

Im sorry, thats the only thought i had when i read it.

I believe that is called "tunnel vision" not seeing "the forest for the trees". I am guilty of that also sometimes....

Which reminds me of this interesting event::

Mark 8:
22 And he cometh to Bethsaida, and they bring to him one blind, and call upon him that he may touch him, 23 and having taken the hand of the blind man, he led him forth without the village, and having spit on his eyes, having put [his] hands on him, he was questioning him if he doth behold anything:

24 And looking-up he said "I am observing the men that as trees I am seeing walking-about"’

25 Afterwards again he put [his] hands on his eyes, and made him look up,
and he was restored and discerned all things clearly,

 

[amariselle]

Right and we shouldn't be correct? That's our own fault and Paul addressed this in the meat offered to idols. Its the perfect scripture for this situation.

I fail to see the connection between pledging allegiance to an earthly country and praising that country in church worship and eating meat sacrificed to idols.

If your own conscience is clear, great, but what if by singing such songs you cause a fellow believer to feel alienated in worship because they don’t come from your country?

We should all consider that. This is why we must remember where our true identity is.

 

[W2L]

Our identity and allegiance should be in Christ Jesus.

God is our helper who supplies our needs. No politician will ever say that because they are too busy taking credit for themselves as they promote their economic politics. I have been accused of being a cult member because i believe that we dont need politicians to fix our economy, because our abundance comes from God Himself. To God be the glory.

 

[amariselle]

Brother .we actually have many scriptural admonitions against what we have done for over two hundered years ...Paul warned us ..If any man cause divisions contrary to the doctrines that you have received from me , mark that man and avoid him for he does not serve the Lord Jesus Christ but his own belly ...This would be men like Thomas Paine , Thomas Jefferson , who railed against the King Of England ..read the declaration , Patrick Henry ..Give me liberty or give me death ... All you do in word or deed , do in the name of Jesus Christ ..(not country nor for the sake of liberty, nor to fight communism or any of the other marketing campaigns pitched to us in order to deceive .
Lastly , we are told not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers ( which is NOT written in the context of marriage although most people are not familiar enough with the bible to understand this .) To get a truthful answer we must ask questions ....is this not a country of believers and unbelievers yoked and united together under a common flag ? Those who hate Christ with those who love him ? What is the truth ? This country, I believe,, is about itself ..not Jesus Christ . Patriotism in the living body of Jesus Christ ? Which joint ?

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing this.