Patriotism & the Church

[W2L]

I believe that is called "tunnel vision" not seeing "the forest for the trees". I am guilty of that also sometimes....

Which reminds me of this interesting event::

Mark 8:
22 And he cometh to Bethsaida, and they bring to him one blind, and call upon him that he may touch him, 23 and having taken the hand of the blind man, he led him forth without the village, and having spit on his eyes, having put [his] hands on him, he was questioning him if he doth behold anything:

24 And looking-up he said "I am observing the men that as trees I am seeing walking-about"’

25 Afterwards again he put [his] hands on his eyes, and made him look up,
and he was restored and discerned all things clearly,

I try to be understanding of all opinions and i weigh them against scripture. Sometimes i get stuck on something, tunnel vision i guess as you say.

 

[amariselle]

God is our helper who supplies our needs. No politician will ever say that because they are too busy taking credit for themselves as they promote their economic politics. I have been accused of being a cult member because i believe that we dont need politicians to fix our economy, because our abundance comes from God Himself. To God be the glory.

Matthew 5:
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I try to be understanding of all opinions and i weigh them against scripture. Sometimes i get stuck on something, tunnel vision i guess as you say.

That is why I don't post on GT much.
I was responding to part of a post from another member and I don't remember getting a response back from that member.

And with that, I am withdrawing from this thread [unless someone quotes a post of mine]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/patriotism-the-church.8071311/page-22#post-72894188

[quoteamariselle said: ↑
Also, the point is made in song that God gave His grace to America above all other nations. We know from Scripture that this is false. God’s grace is for all mankind.
America is not God’s primary receptor of grace.[/quote]

 

[Archivist]

You want to sing about how you love america in church. I asked the question why should i sing that? Must i love america to love God?

And, again, none of the songs I listed even imply that.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I think it is a fallacy to say that God allowed the founding of the USA was in anyway to demonstrate God's approval any more than than God allowing Sodom , Gomorah , Eygypt , Babylon , etc. God does not have a democracy for starters . His is a Kingdom of subjects . ( No rights and no vote . ) Secondly the Kingdom of God is bottom up . Jesus said that the rulers of the gentiles exercise authority over them but with you it will not be so but whosoever will be the greatest , let him be the least . It is a Kingdom of utter humility and awe at God's mercy and love toward ungodly people .
There was a democracy once I believe when Saul said that the people wanted to offer the best of the sheep as a sacrifice and Saul listened to the people . No , we have no biblical foundation that the deist ( they believed in God ) and humanist ( they believed in the rights of man ) were acting out of love for Jesus Christ . History can not even demonstrate that this was the case . We are and have always been a secular nation . ( We were founded primarily over the right of self rule . ) I am well versed in history ....pilgrims , etc. but again , no scriptural basis for us rebelling against the King . Additionally I do not see how patriotism can lead to humility ...seems to me it always lead to pride . We are free to deny the truth but for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion , that they might believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth . Christian history is littered with instances of crucifying the truth so that tradition be not harmed . And the Truth ? He did not resist them.

My answer to you would be the link to my article since we are about a million miles apart.
http://wordservice.org/Government%20of%20God/gg1001.htm

 

[W2L]

And, again, none of the songs I listed even imply that.

Did i ever suggest otherwise? No.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 5:
.

Before I leave this this thread, you never responded to my post.
How come?

christianforums.com/threads/patriotism-the-church.8071311/page-22#post-72894188

 

[amariselle]

Before I leave this this thread, you never responded to my post.
How come?

christianforums.com/threads/patriotism-the-church.8071311/page-22#post-72894188

This one?

Interesting.
Let me just quote this part of your post:
I would tend to agree.
I thought about Christopher Columbus.
I find it interesting that C C' first name starts with "Christ....".

He was of course a Christian, but what if it would have been a non-Christian that discovered America,
so I would have to think that God had a hand in this.
I looked up a bit of the history of him and his voyage:

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/columbus-and-christianity-did-you-know

CONTRARY TO LEGEND, Columbus did not sail to prove the earth was round. Most educated Europeans and mariners already knew that.

Columbus estimated the size of the Atlantic Ocean partially from reading his Bible. He had read in the Second Book of Esdras (in the Apocrypha) that God created the world in seven parts, six of them dry land and the seventh water. He thus calculated that the ocean separating Portugal from Cipangu (Japan) was one-seventh of the earth’s circumference, or about 2,400 miles.
He figured that by sailing 100 miles per day, he could reach the Indies in 30 days.

Unlike many sailors then and now, Christopher Columbus never used profanity.

During Columbus’s voyages, the ships’ crews observed religious rites.
Every time they turned the half-hour glass (their primary means of keeping time), they cried: “Blessed be the hour of our Savior’s birth / blessed be the Virgin Mary who bore him / and blessed be John who baptized him.”
They finished each day by singing vespers together (although reportedly they sang out of tune).

Not until his third voyage did Columbus actually land on the American mainland. Seeing four rivers flowing from the landmass, he believed he had encountered the Garden of Eden. He died in 1506 unaware he had landed thousands of miles short of the Orient.

Irish and French Catholics have argued that Columbus, who “brought the Christian faith to half the world,” should be named a saint.
Though the move had the approval of Pope Pius IX (reign 1846–1878), Columbus was never canonized because he fathered an illegitimate child, and there was no proof he had performed a miracle.........Can't argue with that..........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This one?

Yes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thats not biblical.

Well, it is likely 'biblical' in the sense that Yahweh knew exactly how this was going to happen ( the false / counterfeit throughout history ) and warned about this many times and ways in Scripture, (i.e. it fulfills prophecy and/or 'fills up the wickednesses' (for judgment) as written a few places I think)
yet
yes, it does contradict Yahweh's Insructions, always, for how to live. It is not righteous living, nor honoring Yahweh, nor serving nor following Jesus.

 

[W2L]

Well, it is likely 'biblical' in the sense that Yahweh knew exactly how this was going to happen ( the false / counterfeit throughout history ) and warned about this many times and ways in Scripture, (i.e. it fulfills prophecy and/or 'fills up the wickednesses' (for judgment) as written a few places I think)
yet
yes, it does contradict Yahweh's Insructions, always, for how to live. It is not righteous living, nor honoring Yahweh, nor serving nor following Jesus.

Sorry Jeff, I didnt mean it that way. I was agreeing with you.

 

[Archivist]

Did i ever suggest otherwise? No.

Wrong. Your very words implied otherwise: "Do i need to love america in order to love God??" In addition you wrote: "If not then how are those songs appropriate for the Church?" Yet you have constantly addressed only one of the songs I listed. What about the others? I've asked you several times, yet despite your initial identification of "those songs" you have failed to address why they would be inappropriate.

And again, why do congregations sing Shall We Gather at the River? What if someone has a fear of water? Using your argument that song shouldn't be sing since it could divide us. What other songs should we eliminate? Onward Christian Soldiers? Pacifists might not approve of those words. Do You Hear What I Hear? A deaf person could be highly offended by those words.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry Jeff, I didnt mean it that way. I was agreeing with you.

Yes, I was not trying to say you didn't agree - just clarifying that the "bad churches" are foreseen (always known) by Yahweh, and not something unexpected, and somewhat clearly foretold in His Word FOR OUR SAKES, to know it would and has happened a lot SO OUR JOY WOULD NOT BE DIMINISHED (not wrecked because so much around us 'church-wise' is so 'bad' ) .... the Biblical teaching includes the true and good as well as the false and bad that goes on.....

 

[W2L]

Yes, I was not trying to say you didn't agree - just clarifying that the "bad churches" are foreseen (always known) by Yahweh, and not something unexpected, and somewhat clearly foretold in His Word FOR OUR SAKES, to know it would and has happened a lot SO OUR JOY WOULD NOT BE DIMINISHED (not wrecked because so much around us 'church-wise' is so 'bad' ) .... the Biblical teaching includes the true and good as well as the false and bad that goes on.....

Thanks bro.

 

[W2L]

Wrong. Your very words implied otherwise: "Do i need to love america in order to love God??" In addition you wrote: "If not then how are those songs appropriate for the Church?" Yet you have constantly addressed only one of the songs I listed. What about the others? I've asked you several times, yet despite your initial identification of "those songs" you have failed to address why they would be inappropriate.

And again, why do congregations sing Shall We Gather at the River? What if someone has a fear of water? Using your argument that song shouldn't be sing since it could divide us. What other songs should we eliminate? Onward Christian Soldiers? Pacifists might not approve of those words. Do You Hear What I Hear? A deaf person could be highly offended by those words.

Im getting off this merry go round bro.

 

[RDKirk]

If you are saying what I think you are (you didn't really describe a thought) you have taken the scripture out of context and applied it inappropriately. Apparently if I am reading you correctly Christians shouldn't own businesses either.

No, you're not reading what I wrote, you're reading what you think you have an argument about.

 

[Archivist]

Im getting off this merry go round bro.

In other words you have no answer for my questions. That's fine.

 

[W2L]

In other words you have no answer for my questions. That's fine.

Your argument is a strawman.

 

[amariselle]

Wrong. Your very words implied otherwise: "Do i need to love america in order to love God??" In addition you wrote: "If not then how are those songs appropriate for the Church?" Yet you have constantly addressed only one of the songs I listed. What about the others? I've asked you several times, yet despite your initial identification of "those songs" you have failed to address why they would be inappropriate.

And again, why do congregations sing Shall We Gather at the River? What if someone has a fear of water? Using your argument that song shouldn't be sing since it could divide us. What other songs should we eliminate? Onward Christian Soldiers? Pacifists might not approve of those words. Do You Hear What I Hear? A deaf person could be highly offended by those words.

Perhaps we all need to remember that we are brethren and therefore look out for one another. Not everyone is at the same level of Spiritual maturity either, we ought to be loving and encourage one another in the faith.

 

[DamianWarS]

Is it still shared you wave any flag but your own?

Not sure what you mean but I use 'flag' figuratively for any focus that may conflict with God. It may literally be "waving a flag" as we have seen already demonstrated in this thread the point is when we lift something else up that isn't God the focus towards God is divided. So we need to be careful when we praise things especially in official capacity in the church in case we confuse our worship with that of our patriotic expression to our country.