Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

[Speedwell]

If you're so adamant in believing the Bible is wrong that you have to stoop to ignoring framework narratives and drumming up something about the Bible's chronological layout, then I submit you have a hardened heart.

I got the impression that Ophiolite thinks that you are wrong, not the Bible.

 

[Ophiolite]

If you're so adamant in believing the Bible is wrong that you have to stoop to ignoring framework narratives and drumming up something about the Bible's chronological layout, then I submit you have a hardened heart.

Please note that I have been consistent in my questioning of your interpretation of the Bible. That position will remain hard until you provide sound evidence and a well constructed argument to justify your interpretation.

Perhaps I'll pay more attention to framework narratives when you acknowledge the extensive use in metaphor in the Bible, including Genesis. It might also help if you abandoned this ludicrous attachment to the KJV. It is a literary gem, but not the best basis for a sound Christian theology.

 

[AV1611VET]

That position will remain hard until you provide sound evidence and a well constructed argument to justify your interpretation.

I'll pass.

I've cast my pearls.

I think I've given sufficent reasons to believe Genesis 1 and 2 are not contradictory.

And if you want to be a Suskind about it, go ahead; don't let me stop you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I got the impression that Ophiolite thinks that you are wrong, not the Bible.

Let's ask him, shall we?

Opholite, are Genesis 1 and 2 contradictory creation accounts?

 

[Speedwell]

Let's ask him, shall we?

Opholite, are Genesis 1 and 2 contradictory creation accounts?

If they were, why would that make the Bible "wrong?" It seems to me it would only make your assumptions about the Bible wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

If they were, why would that make the Bible "wrong?"

I'll take that as a rhetorical question.

You can't be that dense.

For the record, does the Anglican denomination teach verbal plenary inspiration and preservation of the Scriptures?

 

[Speedwell]

I'll take that as a rhetorical question.

You can't be that dense.

For the record, does the Anglican denomination teach verbal plenary inspiration and preservation of the Scriptures?

No, the Anglican Communion is older than those doctrines and in any case, does not teach Sola Scriptura from which they derive.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, the Anglican Communion is older than those doctrines and in any case, does not teach Sola Scriptura from which they derive.

Okay ... thank you.

 

[Ophiolite]

Let's ask him, shall we?

Opholite, are Genesis 1 and 2 contradictory creation accounts?

They contain contradictory elements. If we view the early chapters (perhaps all) of Genesis as myth and metaphor then those contradictions are unimportant and merely reflect the merging of two marginally different oral traditions. On the other hand if we view those chapters as the literal truth then the contradictions assume major significance and can only be resolved by highly questionable manipulation of the type you practice/support. I repeat I have made no comments on whether the Bible is right or wrong*, merely observed, repeatedly, that I think your interpretation is very definitely and demonstrably wrong.

*The question as to whether the Bible is right or wrong is a meaningless question. It is analogous to asking if the works of Shakespeare are right or wrong, or if the Declaration of Independence is right or wrong, or even more akin to the question asked by son more than thirty years ago, "Daddy, why is yellow?"

 

[AV1611VET]

They contain contradictory elements.

Contradictory or paradoxical?

Or is paradox resolution a forbidden subject in academia?

 

[Speedwell]

Contradictory or paradoxical?

Or is paradox resolution a forbidden subject in academia?

No, but in this case it does not seem particularly necessary. They are two different stories; two different kinds of stories. No useful purpose is served by trying to force them into being a continuous narrative.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Here are Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in chronological order:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

-_- that doesn't work out quite right because Genesis 1 unambiguously states that birds and other animals were created before Adam, and Genesis 2 unambiguously states that birds and other animals were created after Adam.

 

[Ophiolite]

Contradictory or paradoxical?

Or is paradox resolution a forbidden subject in academia?

If I had meant paradoxical I would have said paradoxical. I follow the principle that one should say what one means and mean what one says; that includes the practice of careful attention to choosing the most apt words throughout.

 

[AV1611VET]

If I had meant paradoxical I would have said paradoxical. I follow the principle that one should say what one means and mean what one says; that includes the practice of careful attention to choosing the most apt words throughout.

Well then that explains it.

You think something is contradictory when, in fact, it is paradoxical.

FYI, the Bible has an impressive list of things that are paradoxical.

2 Corinthians 12:10b ... for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[AV1611VET]

-_- that doesn't work out quite right because Genesis 1 unambiguously states that birds and other animals were created before Adam, and Genesis 2 unambiguously states that birds and other animals were created after Adam.

And I'll ask again:

How many unambiguous times was Adam placed into the Garden?

Obviously one means "had placed," but it says "placed" because it is rewinding and moving forward again.

I stocked the shelves with buns, then put bread next to them.

In fact, I got to go home early, since I stocked the shelves with bread and buns ahead of time.

 

[Speedwell]

And I'll ask again:

How many unambiguous times was Adam placed into the Garden?

Obviously one means "had placed," but it says "placed" because it is rewinding and moving forward again.

I stocked the shelves with buns, then put bread next to them.

In fact, I got to go home early, since I stocked the shelves with bread and buns ahead of time.

But it doesn't answer the question of why you need Gen 1 & 2 to be one continuous narrative.

 

[AV1611VET]

But it doesn't answer the question of why you need Gen 1 & 2 to be one continuous narrative.

It ... is ... a ... framework ... narrative.

The way a marriage ceremony is conducted today is patterned after Genesis 2.

In fact, Genesis 1 and 2 make up a good set of guidlines to follow.

(Adam has a job, is mature, etc.)

 

[Speedwell]

It ... is ... a ... framework ... narrative.

But you still haven't answered the question. Why do you need it to be a "framework narrative?"

 

[Ophiolite]

Well then that explains it.

You think something is contradictory when, in fact, it is paradoxical.

FYI, the Bible has an impressive list of things that are paradoxical.

2 Corinthians 12:10b ... for when I am weak, then am I strong.

That quote appears to be paradoxical. The Genesis contrasts are contradictory. If you choose to assert otherwise you need to provide a more detailed and reasoned post than any I have ever seen from you. If it helps I expect you just to change the topic and move on. (I wonder who do you think you are fooling with that technique? It's certainly not me.)

 

[PsychoSarah]

And I'll ask again:

How many unambiguous times was Adam placed into the Garden?

Obviously one means "had placed," but it says "placed" because it is rewinding and moving forward again.

I stocked the shelves with buns, then put bread next to them.

In fact, I got to go home early, since I stocked the shelves with bread and buns ahead of time.

No, obviously it says two different things but you can't reconcile that with your beliefs. You shouldn't have to change word meanings to make it make sense, AV, but you do.