LDS A Visit to the LDS Temple

[He is the way]

Typical lds evasive non-answer defaulting to a testimony when the questions get too difficult to answer truthfully.

As I said I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for a reason. I know that God is loving, fair and just. I do not see that in other churches.

 

[Rescued One]

Keeping the commandments does not include baptizing infants. It is very important to keep the commandments.

You said:
"OK let me rephrase that there are bad people in every church. There are also people who realize how important it is to live the commandments of love in most every church.* They are good examples for other people to follow."

*So are you saying in every Mormon ward or branch?

 

[dzheremi]

Thank you for your comments.

Thanks, but can you please answer the question that I asked? If babies do not need to be baptized because they are not sinful, then are Mormon eight year olds sinful by default?

I do not believe that Christ was sinful when He was baptized by St. John (and He was much older than eight or seven or whenever the 'age of reason' is in Mormonism), and I have a hard time believing that you do, either.

 

[Rescued One]

As I said I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for a reason. I know that God is loving, fair and just. I do not see that in other churches.

If you don't believe our God is loving, fair and just, you should tell everyone, including your fellow Mormons, that we don't worship the same God!

 

[He is the way]

If you don't believe our God is loving, fair and just, you should tell everyone, including your fellow Mormons, that we don't worship the same God!

There is only one God the Father and He is loving, fair and just. He makes it possible for ALL of His children to return to Him. None of them will be able to say He is unfair or unjust or that they weren't given the opportunity.

 

[Rescued One]

There is only one God the Father and He is loving, fair and just. He makes it possible for ALL of His children to return to Him. None of them will be able to say He is unfair or unjust or that they weren't given the opportunity.

Our God is perfect and Triune. A perfect God is NEVER unjust.

You talk about a Father god. He isn't ours.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; 4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law; 22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.
Doctrine and Covenants 130

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks, but can you please answer the question that I asked? If babies do not need to be baptized because they are not sinful, then are Mormon eight year olds sinful by default?

I do not believe that Christ was sinful when He was baptized by St. John (and He was much older than eight or seven or whenever the 'age of reason' is in Mormonism), and I have a hard time believing that you do, either.

Good questions and excellent point! All we need is a polite answer. For instance, why wasn't Christ baptized at age eight? ???

 

[He is the way]

Good questions and excellent point! All we need is a polite answer. For instance, why wasn't Christ baptized at age eight? ???

"why wasn't Christ baptized at age eight?" That should be obvious. Think about it for a minute..................
How old was John the Baptist when Jesus was eight?

 

[Rescued One]

"why wasn't Christ baptized at age eight?" That should be obvious. Think about it for a minute..................
How old was John the Baptist when Jesus was eight?

If God wanted children baptized at age eight He would have provided the way.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

[He is the way]

If God wanted children baptized at age eight He would have provided the way.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

God wanted John the Baptist to Baptize Jesus. People can get baptized any time after they turn eight.

 

[He is the way]

Our God is perfect and Triune. A perfect God is NEVER unjust.

You talk about a Father god. He isn't ours.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; 4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law; 22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.
Doctrine and Covenants 130

Why would a just God not give everyone an equal opportunity to return to Him?

 

[Rescued One]

Why would a just God not give everyone an equal opportunity to return to Him?

Why would a just God contradict the Bible as the Mormon gods do?

 

[He is the way]

Why would a just God contradict the Bible as the Mormon gods do?

You are avoiding the question and insinuating that we do not follow God the Father. The Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible. We follow the teachings of Jesus Christ given to Jesus Christ by God the Father. God is just, loving, and fair. I know He is, and I know that He gives EVERYONE the opportunity to return to Him. He loves ALL of His children. However some of His children choose not to obey. They choose to fight against the commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

You are avoiding the question and insinuating that we do not follow God the Father.

You don't. You follow Joseph Smith's and other Mormon leaders' idea of the same, as contained in the Mormon writings. Such things are not accepted in Christianity, so of course from a Christian perspective you would not be following God.

The Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible.

Let's see...

Did the fall of Adam make it so that men "might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25), or was the fall the cause of sin and death entering into the world (Romans 5:12)? Sin and death are not joy.

Are we saved "after all that we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23), or are we saved by grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1)? (See also Romans 11:6)

Did Christ found His Church during the time of the apostles (Matthew 16:18; Acts 2:47), or before that among the Book of Mormon peoples who lived in BC times (Mosiah 18:17)?

Were the believers in Christ first called Christians in Antioch during the time of the apostles' ministry (Acts 11:26), or at some other place and time (Alma 46:15)

There are many more contradictions than these, but I think you get the point. The BOM contradicts the Bible on many matters of theology, soteriology, and history.

We follow the teachings of Jesus Christ given to Jesus Christ by God the Father.

No, you follow the teachings of Joseph Smith as given by Joseph Smith. If you followed Christ, you would believe Him when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (meaning the Church that He was founding then in the first century, not something that didn't come along for another 1800 years in response to a supposed apostasy that never happened and flatly contradicts His words).

God is just, loving, and fair. I know He is, and I know that He gives EVERYONE the opportunity to return to Him. He loves ALL of His children. However some of His children choose not to obey. They choose to fight against the commandments.

Yeah, like by founding other religions to replace Christianity because they can't agree with it and would rather follow the supposed 'revelations' given to some farm boy in New York nearly two millennia after the fact. That's really, really not obeying God.

 

[He is the way]

You don't. You follow Joseph Smith's and other Mormon leaders' idea of the same, as contained in the Mormon writings. Such things are not accepted in Christianity, so of course from a Christian perspective you would not be following God.



Let's see...

Did the fall of Adam make it so that men "might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25), or was the fall the cause of sin and death entering into the world (Romans 5:12)? Sin and death are not joy.

Yes sin and death did enter into the world:

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:11 - 12)

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

However in the end we may have joy:

(New Testament | Romans 15:13)

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 1:7 - 8)

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:13)

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

No conflict here at all.

 

[He is the way]

You don't. You follow Joseph Smith's and other Mormon leaders' idea of the same, as contained in the Mormon writings. Such things are not accepted in Christianity, so of course from a Christian perspective you would not be following God.



Let's see...

Are we saved "after all that we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23), or are we saved by grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1)? (See also Romans 11:6)

Cherry picking the scriptures won't help. I can do that too:

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(New Testament | Titus 1:16)

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[He is the way]

You don't. You follow Joseph Smith's and other Mormon leaders' idea of the same, as contained in the Mormon writings. Such things are not accepted in Christianity, so of course from a Christian perspective you would not be following God.



Let's see...

Did Christ found His Church during the time of the apostles (Matthew 16:18; Acts 2:47), or before that among the Book of Mormon peoples who lived in BC times (Mosiah 18:17)?

Were the believers in Christ first called Christians in Antioch during the time of the apostles' ministry (Acts 11:26), or at some other place and time (Alma 46:15)[/quote]


If Christ brought His Church to the Americas first, what is it to you? What do any of these so called contradictions have to do with Christ't gospel? The answer is NOTHING.

 

[dzheremi]

If Christ brought His Church to the Americas first, what is it to you? What do any of these so called contradictions have to do with Christ't gospel? The answer is NOTHING.

Hahahahaha. Oh my...

Obviously, He Is the Way, the point is to say that if the Holy Bible is claiming that the followers of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch, then anything that claims otherwise contradicts the Bible. Your belief in that other thing (as you express by writing "If Christ brought His Church to the Americas first", as that is the Mormon narrative) has no bearing on anything, just as my or any other person's disbelief in that other thing has no bearing on anything (so it doesn't matter "what it is to me"; I think you can guess how I feel about Mormon claims).

And now you are attempting to change the subject with your question of what any of these "so called contradictions have to do with Christ's gospel". I don't even know what you mean by that, but that's not the assertion that I was responding to (that they have XYZ to do with what you take to be "Christ's gospel"). I was responding to the initial assertion you made, that the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible.

You are quite simply wrong about that.

 

[He is the way]

Hahahahaha. Oh my...

Obviously, He Is the Way, the point is to say that if the Holy Bible is claiming that the followers of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch, then anything that claims otherwise contradicts the Bible. Your belief in that other thing (as you express by writing "If Christ brought His Church to the Americas first", as that is the Mormon narrative) has no bearing on anything, just as my or any other person's disbelief in that other thing has no bearing on anything (so it doesn't matter "what it is to me"; I think you can guess how I feel about Mormon claims).

And now you are attempting to change the subject with your question of what any of these "so called contradictions have to do with Christ's gospel". I don't even know what you mean by that, but that's not the assertion that I was responding to (that they have XYZ to do with what you take to be "Christ's gospel"). I was responding to the initial assertion you made, that the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible.

You are quite simply wrong about that.

Luke observed what was happening in his own area of the world. Luke disagreed with Mathew on who Joseph's father was:

(New Testament | Luke 3:23)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

(New Testament | Matthew 1:16)

16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke was not perfect. He also made other mistakes.

 

[dzheremi]

What does your reply have to do with anything I've written? The statement that the followers of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch comes from Acts, not Luke. In fact, none of the contradictions I pointed out relied on Luke for a reference. What does the Gospel according to St. Luke have to do with anything at all?

What a strange non-reply. It would appear that you are now having your own conversation about some unrelated matter. Let me know if you ever actually address the points I have made, or back up your original claim. Right now, you are doing neither.