LDS A Visit to the LDS Temple

He is the way

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According to your leaders, those who are not lds are not of the church of the Lamb of God. Unless you are a prophet or have authority to speak on behalf of the lds church, you do not have the authority to contradict them, regardless of your opinion.
The Bible tells us who is of God and who is not:
(New Testament | 1 John 3:4 - 24)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
 
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BigDaddy4

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The Bible tells us who is of God and who is not:
(New Testament | 1 John 3:4 - 24)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Nice try. Your leaders disagree.
The Only True and Living Church

So do your Scriptures (D&C 1:30, JS - History 1:19-20).

Whom should we believe - you? Or your leaders - the supposed prophets, seers, and revelators chosen to guide your church?
 
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He is the way

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Nice try. Your leaders disagree.
The Only True and Living Church

So do your Scriptures (D&C 1:30, JS - History 1:19-20).

Whom should we believe - you? Or your leaders - the supposed prophets, seers, and revelators chosen to guide your church?
There are only two churches on the earth, the church of God and the church of satan. We follow one or the other. It is our choice.
 
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BigDaddy4

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There are only two churches on the earth, the church of God and the church of satan. We follow one or the other. It is our choice.
No, your leaders have defined which is which. You can't escape that fact.
 
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He is the way

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No, your leaders have defined which is which. You can't escape that fact.
There are only two churches on the earth:

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:10)

0 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

Who is of the church of the devil:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:8 - 18)

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Anyone can belong to ANY church and still be of the devil. That being said the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a living prophet of God.
 
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dzheremi

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That is really inconsistent, though, because the BOM talks about churches, but the examples that you give are of people. Surely there is a difference between the organization and the people, no? I get not judging individuals, because it is not possible for anyone to know anyone else's heart, but judging organizations by what they proclaim to be true and what they proclaim to be false is not judging individuals, but the truth claims of the organizations to which they belong.

If we were to take your examples literally, then every church would be the church of the devil and no church would the church of God, because every church contains sinners.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Anyone can belong to ANY church and still be of the devil.
But not anyone can belong to the church of the Lamb of God. Per your leaders, only the lds can belong.
That being said the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a living prophet of God.
A false prophet is still a false prophet, no matter how you color it.
 
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He is the way

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But not anyone can belong to the church of the Lamb of God. Per your leaders, only the lds can belong.
A false prophet is still a false prophet, no matter how you color it.
Anyone can become a member of the LDS Church. I believe president Nelson is a true prophet of God.
 
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He is the way

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That is really inconsistent, though, because the BOM talks about churches, but the examples that you give are of people. Surely there is a difference between the organization and the people, no? I get not judging individuals, because it is not possible for anyone to know anyone else's heart, but judging organizations by what they proclaim to be true and what they proclaim to be false is not judging individuals, but the truth claims of the organizations to which they belong.

If we were to take your examples literally, then every church would be the church of the devil and no church would the church of God, because every church contains sinners.
The way to judge a church is by the doctrine, not the people. There are good and bad people in every church. Satan desires to have all of us. Belonging to one church or another will not save us. Even being an apostle of Christ while He was on the earth could not save Judas. Jesus called Judas a devil:

(New Testament | John 6:70 - 71)

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Each one of us choses to follow Jesus or satan. The scriptures teach us what we should do:

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 5)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 
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dzheremi

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The way to judge a church is by the doctrine, not the people. There are good and bad people in every church.

Yeah. That's what I wrote. The Book of Mormon, however, said that there are only two churches, and you clarified it by quoting from 1 John and highlighting all of the instances of the text talking about those who sin, saying that this is the way to recognize who is in the church of the devil, in comparison to those who do good. Hence my reply that says that every church is therefore the church of the devil, since all sin.

Sooo...there's only one church?

Works for me. :)
 
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Rescued One

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That is really inconsistent, though, because the BOM talks about churches, but the examples that you give are of people. Surely there is a difference between the organization and the people, no? I get not judging individuals, because it is not possible for anyone to know anyone else's heart, but judging organizations by what they proclaim to be true and what they proclaim to be false is not judging individuals, but the truth claims of the organizations to which they belong.

If we were to take your examples literally, then every church would be the church of the devil and no church would the church of God, because every church contains sinners.

That has been taught by Mormons, the Book of Mormon says it is so, and the missionary I asked agreed that there are two churches only. If you don't belong to Christ's Church, you belong to the other church. Ask a Mormon where to find Christ's Church.
 
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Rescued One

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The way to judge a church is by the doctrine, not the people. There are good and bad people in every church.

You told me:

"Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

"However that does not mean that those without the law were good. Jesus said there is none good but one:

"Mark 10
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Race and the LDS Priesthood
 
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He is the way

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You told me:

"Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

"However that does not mean that those without the law were good. Jesus said there is none good but one:

"Mark 10
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Race and the LDS Priesthood

OK let me rephrase that there are bad people in every church. There are also people who realize how important it is to live the commandments of love in most every church. They are good examples for other people to follow.
 
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He is the way

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So now are you admitting that the lds church is the only church of the Lamb of God?
When Jesus Christ returns to the earth He will be the leader of His church and even though there will be other churches on the earth, His church will be the true and living church with all of the correct doctrine. I believe there will be people who will still reject His doctrine as many people did when He was here with us. I do believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
 
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OK let me rephrase that there are bad people in every church. There are also people who realize how important it is to live the commandments of love in most every church. They are good examples for other people to follow.

But a lot of people baptize infants!
 
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dzheremi

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Keeping the commandments does not include baptizing infants, only sinners.

This leads me to an interesting question that I hadn't thought of before just now:

Okay, so we both (you as a Mormon and me as an Orthodox Christian) agree that infants are not guilty of any sin. You say that this means that not only do they not need to get baptized, but that they are incapable of needing baptism because they are not sinners.

What then does that say about the Mormon view of eight year old children? I think I understand the idea of the "age of reason" well enough (I was RC before converting to Orthodoxy, and the RCC came up with this idea in the first place), but to combine this idea with the stance that nobody needs to be baptized unless they are sinners makes it seem like the implication is that Mormon children become sinful by default once they turn eight years old. (Or whatever age they are determined to have reached the age of reason; I think in RC sources it is conventionalized to around eight, so I'll go with that.)

I know, I know..."the law entered so that sin might abound" (Romans 5:20), meaning that recognition of the law leads to (increased) recognition of trespasses of it, but by tying it to baptism aren't you then practically mandating that children be sinful? That's a little ironic, given that the entire reason given for disputing the baptism of babies is that they are not sinners...I guess in the Mormon view a person is like a new car, in that when you drive it off the lot and for some time afterwards it will, under normal circumstances, remain in pristine condition, but eventually -- probably within the first eight years or so :) -- you'll have to wash it to keep it looking new.

By contrast, in Christianity, baptism is to "take off the old man", meaning to wash us and give us the new birth as a new creation in Christ so that even though the human race may be affected by sin regardless of any one individual's personal sinfulness, we have within us the promise of the life we have been set on the right path towards, should we continue to walk down that path to enter through the narrow gate.

Priest:
Remember, O Lord, the catechumens of Your people; have mercy upon them.

Deacon:
Pray for the catechumens.

People:
Lord have mercy.

Priest:
Uproot all traces of idolatry from their hearts. Your Law, Your fear, Your commandments, Your truths, and Your holy precepts, establish in their hearts. Grant that they may know the steadfastness of the preaching they have received.

And in the set time, may they be worthy of the washing of the new birth for the remission of their sins, as You prepare them to be a temple of Your Holy Spirit.


-- Weekday supplications for Matins (morning prayers) in the Coptic Orthodox Church

+++

It is interesting and appropriate that this language should be used in a portion of the service where prayers are said for the catechumens. Catechumens are converts who are being initiated into the Christian religion in preparation for baptism and formal reception into the Church. Obviously, it is therefore impossible for babies to be catechumens in the proper sense that is meant here, as they cannot be converts to anything, so that bit about the remission of their sins cannot apply to them for anything that they have done (as they have not done anything yet). And yet this is the precise language that is found with reference to baptism because it is the same for all people -- the baby gets the new birth as well, being now born into Christ as a full member of His Church, and this despite having no sins to repent of. It is assumed, like the Mormon car-person, that the child will probably eventually sin at some point, but we needn't establish that in order to welcome them in, in the same way that it would be pretty lousy parenting to wait until your child is literally starving before you feed them. In fact, the baptized baby has a leg up on the catechumen, if you look at it that way: freshly minted into the world at large, and they already have the baptism, the entrance into His Church, that others in other situations have to work quite hard for! (Not to make a show of it, but just as an example, I myself studied, prayed, and fasted for three years before requesting that the priest baptize me, and I know that some people's catechesis can go on for an even longer time, as in the Christian East there is generally not a formalized path like you'll find in Western Christianity, e.g., RCIA for Catholics or similar.)
 
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BigDaddy4

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When Jesus Christ returns to the earth He will be the leader of His church and even though there will be other churches on the earth, His church will be the true and living church with all of the correct doctrine. I believe there will be people who will still reject His doctrine as many people did when He was here with us. I do believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Typical lds evasive non-answer defaulting to a testimony when the questions get too difficult to answer truthfully.
 
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He is the way

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This leads me to an interesting question that I hadn't thought of before just now:

Okay, so we both (you as a Mormon and me as an Orthodox Christian) agree that infants are not guilty of any sin. You say that this means that not only do they not need to get baptized, but that they are incapable of needing baptism because they are not sinners.

What then does that say about the Mormon view of eight year old children? I think I understand the idea of the "age of reason" well enough (I was RC before converting to Orthodoxy, and the RCC came up with this idea in the first place), but to combine this idea with the stance that nobody needs to be baptized unless they are sinners makes it seem like the implication is that Mormon children become sinful by default once they turn eight years old. (Or whatever age they are determined to have reached the age of reason; I think in RC sources it is conventionalized to around eight, so I'll go with that.)

I know, I know..."the law entered so that sin might abound" (Romans 5:20), meaning that recognition of the law leads to (increased) recognition of trespasses of it, but by tying it to baptism aren't you then practically mandating that children be sinful? That's a little ironic, given that the entire reason given for disputing the baptism of babies is that they are not sinners...I guess in the Mormon view a person is like a new car, in that when you drive it off the lot and for some time afterwards it will, under normal circumstances, remain in pristine condition, but eventually -- probably within the first eight years or so :) -- you'll have to wash it to keep it looking new.

By contrast, in Christianity, baptism is to "take off the old man", meaning to wash us and give us the new birth as a new creation in Christ so that even though the human race may be affected by sin regardless of any one individual's personal sinfulness, we have within us the promise of the life we have been set on the right path towards, should we continue to walk down that path to enter through the narrow gate.

Priest:
Remember, O Lord, the catechumens of Your people; have mercy upon them.

Deacon:
Pray for the catechumens.

People:
Lord have mercy.

Priest:
Uproot all traces of idolatry from their hearts. Your Law, Your fear, Your commandments, Your truths, and Your holy precepts, establish in their hearts. Grant that they may know the steadfastness of the preaching they have received.

And in the set time, may they be worthy of the washing of the new birth for the remission of their sins, as You prepare them to be a temple of Your Holy Spirit.


-- Weekday supplications for Matins (morning prayers) in the Coptic Orthodox Church

+++

It is interesting and appropriate that this language should be used in a portion of the service where prayers are said for the catechumens. Catechumens are converts who are being initiated into the Christian religion in preparation for baptism and formal reception into the Church. Obviously, it is therefore impossible for babies to be catechumens in the proper sense that is meant here, as they cannot be converts to anything, so that bit about the remission of their sins cannot apply to them for anything that they have done (as they have not done anything yet). And yet this is the precise language that is found with reference to baptism because it is the same for all people -- the baby gets the new birth as well, being now born into Christ as a full member of His Church, and this despite having no sins to repent of. It is assumed, like the Mormon car-person, that the child will probably eventually sin at some point, but we needn't establish that in order to welcome them in, in the same way that it would be pretty lousy parenting to wait until your child is literally starving before you feed them. In fact, the baptized baby has a leg up on the catechumen, if you look at it that way: freshly minted into the world at large, and they already have the baptism, the entrance into His Church, that others in other situations have to work quite hard for! (Not to make a show of it, but just as an example, I myself studied, prayed, and fasted for three years before requesting that the priest baptize me, and I know that some people's catechesis can go on for an even longer time, as in the Christian East there is generally not a formalized path like you'll find in Western Christianity, e.g., RCIA for Catholics or similar.)
Good catch and I like your comments. There has to be a time when we do become accountable and responsible for our actions. While we know that baptism is to wash away sins as stated in the Bible:

(New Testament | Mark 1:4)

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


We know that baptism is also to fulfil all righteousness:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:14 - 15)

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Responsibility is greater for those who know the law:

(New Testament | Acts 17:28 - 30)

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You mentioned taking off the old man and I agree. So does the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:4 - 6)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Thank you for your comments.
 
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