Scientists find first bird beak.

[Bugeyedcreepy]

He gave Himself as evidence and the proven word of God.

Why give himself as evidence when next to nobody knew of it, let alone was there to see it? Surely the creator of the universe would have thought about how ineffective such a method might be...

What about them?

If there was a worldwide flood, then salt, being soluble, would never layer amongst the sediments, let alone layer up to several kilometers thick as if it were the result of millions of years of repetitive evaporation of inland oceans.

and before you say something that has not a lick of sense, salts are integral to life and biology, so there's no way it wouldn't have been soluble in some wishfully imagined past state, because life wouldn't have existed and there's be no need to flood the world.

No..you are assuming present deposition rates (this nature) existed. Religion.

Not religion. Evidence, which is like Cancer to some religions - which is probably why you don't like it in the least, I imagine...

Come up with a decent rebuttal to the evidence and someone might even take you seriously. Until then, I'm resigning your nonsense to the "not even wrong" bin again. Ice cores and their dating methods have been demonstrated correct and correlated with other methods that don't rely on isotope measurement

Your circular belief system assumes trees grew in this nature with it;s rates.

Your dates are total religion.

lol! "Nuh-Uh!" - How can you honestly not question why literally all the evidence and facts we have, go against your interpretation of your religion? You must have a twisted version of reality...

Science doesn't know either way and the bible and history lean toward different.

so, no evidence and nothing to support your imagined view of reality that you desperately wish was the case.

A nature change would also affect atoms inside rock!
You assume everything made it's way into rock in this nature.

Show how it would be different without us knowing it. How could those atoms differ in any nature that wouldn't be apparent to us now? - Actually, don't answer, I know you have no idea and will just claim magic did it because you need it to.

Science must wear it.

Just like the bible? There's a far easier argument to be made for your holy book promoting genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order well before you could blame science for any of the negative ilk you want to attribute to it.

Stop rejecting/ignoring God and His word?

And of the Christian Scientists? Are they rejecting/ignoring God and his word? Nothing to say for the other Abrahamic religions like Islam, Judaism, and then all the other religious Scientists of other faiths that observe a variation of your God, or Gods of similar/equivalent morals.

 

[dad]

Why give himself as evidence when next to nobody knew of it, let alone was there to see it? Surely the creator of the universe would have thought about how ineffective such a method might be...

He chose a people and a line to come in. They knew. The idea is that after that, the world would also know.

If there was a worldwide flood, then salt, being soluble, would never layer amongst the sediments, let alone layer up to several kilometers thick as if it were the result of millions of years of repetitive evaporation of inland oceans.

If salt came up from below and also there was massive plate movements mountain building, uplift etc etc...salt would be deep in places. It also would be among sediments.

Not religion. Evidence, which is like Cancer to some religions - which is probably why you don't like it in the least, I imagine...

The cancer is pretending your beliefs are evidence.

Ice cores and their dating methods have been demonstrated correct and correlated with other methods that don't rely on isotope measurement

They are correct in the short term. As fr the correlations, they are circular religion.

Show how it would be different without us knowing it. How could those atoms differ in any nature that wouldn't be apparent to us now? -

How can spirits pass through walls? How could we live forever? How could lions start eating grass? How could Adam have a woman made from his bone?

The atoms must obey the laws and forces in place. If the forces are not the same don't expect atoms to be the same.

Just like the bible? There's a far easier argument to be made for your holy book promoting genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order well before you could blame science for any of the negative ilk you want to attribute to it.

It promotes the salvation of man, and triumph of good over evil. If you cry about the evil not winning too much or having the evil rights violated...well, sorry. I do not want wicked demons and men ruining the plan of my salvation, and the earth.

God is not violating the angel rights in kicking them out of heaven, nor violating the evil people by taking over the world forever soon. He is protecting His people from being violated by them.

And of the Christian Scientists? Are they rejecting/ignoring God and his word?

They ought to believe the bible.

Nothing to say for the other Abrahamic religions like Islam, Judaism, and then all the other religious Scientists of other faiths that observe a variation of your God, or Gods of similar/equivalent morals.

Either they know...or not. Ha.

 

[Aman777]

Pfft, Pascal's Wager, really Aman? That doesn't work for these two reasons:
1. I still can't force myself to believe something, not even when threatened with the hell I don't believe in or when faced with the terrifying concept of ceasing to exist after death. Belief doesn't work that way, it cannot be forced. You cannot make be believe in god just because I'd prefer to go to heaven than cease to exist. I'd also prefer to be immortal over dying, but I can't force myself to believe I won't one day die.

2. What if we are both wrong and the Muslims are right? Or the Hindus? Or some religion that died out thousands of years ago? This isn't a dichotomy, Christianity is, whether you like it or not, only one of many possible religions that could be right, and there is a good chance none of them are.

1. I didn't tell you of Pascal's Wager. I told you that ONLY those who seek to have the Gift of saving Faith, which is given to all those who seek it, by God Himself. Maybe immortality doesn't appeal to you, but what about those who love you?

2. That is exactly WHY I support what I post with the AGREEMENT of Scripture with Science and History. It changes Faith into Fact. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

In real years or so called science imaginary same state past based time?

In so called science imaginary same state past based time.

 

[PsychoSarah]

1. I didn't tell you of Pascal's Wager. I told you that ONLY those who seek to have the Gift of saving Faith, which is given to all those who seek it, by God Himself. Maybe immortality doesn't appeal to you, but what about those who love you?

Pascal's wager is the suggestion that it is better to be a theist JUST IN CASE rather than to be an atheist. Did you not say "If I am wrong, no problem, but if you are wrong..."?

-_- immortality absolutely does appeal to me; belief isn't based on what a person likes the most. I'd love to delude myself into believing that I'll never die, but it ain't happening. I can't force myself to believe something.

2. That is exactly WHY I support what I post with the AGREEMENT of Scripture with Science and History. It changes Faith into Fact. Amen?

Even if you had demonstrated that the bible had some insight on the universe that was ahead of it's time, that wouldn't be evidence that YHWH or an afterlife exists.

 

[Aman777]

Pascal's wager is the suggestion that it is better to be a theist JUST IN CASE rather than to be an atheist. Did you not say "If I am wrong, no problem, but if you are wrong..."?

If I'm wrong I'll just die and rot. No problem for you and I will never know.
If you're wrong you will miss becoming immortal. That's my point. You CANNOT fake it with God. He sees your heart.

-_- immortality absolutely does appeal to me; belief isn't based on what a person likes the most. I'd love to delude myself into believing that I'll never die, but it ain't happening. I can't force myself to believe something.

Immortality is a side item when compared to the fact that we are God's children, destined to rule Heaven and live like we are supposed to live. As for me, I can hardly wait to fly. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Even if you had demonstrated that the bible had some insight on the universe that was ahead of it's time, that wouldn't be evidence that YHWH or an afterlife exists.

We will both find out and if I'm wrong, no problem but waking up to Judgment is too great a nightmare for me to live with, until then. God Bless you

 

[PsychoSarah]

If I'm wrong I'll just die and rot. No problem for you and I will never know.
If you're wrong you will miss becoming immortal. That's my point. You CANNOT fake it with God. He sees your heart.

-_- again, this is Pascal's wager. The problem with it is that it presumes a false dichotomy. Hindus could be right. Muslims could be right. A religion that doesn't exist yet could be right. The chances of your specific religion being the right one are so small that it would be pointless to be a theist on the hopes of getting a good afterlife. Not to mention the various possibilities where there is an afterlife but beliefs have no impact on the experience, or where there are gods but no afterlife.

Furthermore, if I can't fake belief and I can't force belief, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? All you are saying is that thanks to something I cannot control, you believe I will go to hell. In what universe could that possibly be sufficient to make me a believer? I could threaten you with Odin's wrath, but you certainly wouldn't pray to Odin for forgiveness to cover all your bases.

Immortality is a side item when compared to the fact that we are God's children, destined to rule Heaven and live like we are supposed to live. As for me, I can hardly wait to fly. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You mean you can't wait to constantly worship YHWH 24/7 for all of eternity, because that's all the bible states that the dead souls in heaven do. Since your entire argument is predicated upon wanting there to be a good afterlife, why not customize your belief? Make your own heaven, but with blackjack and hookers? It has just as high a probability of being real as any other heaven.

We will both find out and if I'm wrong, no problem but waking up to Judgment is too great a nightmare for me to live with, until then. God Bless you

Until you are judged by Vishu instead of YHWH, etc. There are tons of hells in the human imagination other than the Christian one.

 

[Aman777]

-_- again, this is Pascal's wager. The problem with it is that it presumes a false dichotomy. Hindus could be right. Muslims could be right. A religion that doesn't exist yet could be right. The chances of your specific religion being the right one are so small that it would be pointless to be a theist on the hopes of getting a good afterlife. Not to mention the various possibilities where there is an afterlife but beliefs have no impact on the experience, or where there are gods but no afterlife.

If you can see that only God could have possibly authored Genesis and told us the current scientific Truth more than 3k years ago, you can depend on what the rest of the Bible is teaching. Do the false religions you mentioned show us the current scientific Truth in their creation stories? Of course not. When you really understand Genesis One, you have the complete History of the creation of God's perfect Heaven, including future events at the end of the 6th Day/Age. Gen 1:28-31

Furthermore, if I can't fake belief and I can't force belief, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

No one can believe in resurrection from the dead so they MUST ask the Father for His Gift of saving faith to believe that Jesus did.

Eph 2:8 For by grace (undeserved reward) are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

He chose a people and a line to come in. They knew. The idea is that after that, the world would also know.

fail.

If salt came up from below and also there was massive plate movements mountain building, uplift etc etc...salt would be deep in places. It also would be among sediments.

the salt is between sediments. Sediments that you allege are there because of a worldwide flood. You know, water? Lots and lots of Water??

.....fail.

The cancer is pretending your beliefs are evidence.

Lucky I don't do that, even if it were cancer. You're up to your neck in fail on this post already...

They are correct in the short term. As fr the correlations, they are circular religion.

so you got nuthn'? Nothing at all for why the results correlate and match in a way that could only occur if the earth was old and the past was the same as it is now. Colour me surprised...

How can spirits pass through walls? How could we live forever? How could lions start eating grass? How could Adam have a woman made from his bone?

Dunno... likewise, How can magic Unicorns know a virgin when they see one? How could Harry Potter befriend Hippogryphs so easily? How could Ra pull the Sun across the Sky in his chariot every day? How could Vishnu simply dream the Universe into existence....? How amazing is that, he was asleep and just Dreamt the entire Universe into existence!? ....While he was Asleep!!! ....ASLEEP!!!

The atoms must obey the laws and forces in place. If the forces are not the same don't expect atoms to be the same.

or even exist for that matter, because they likely wouldn't if the forces were any different. It'd be pretty obvious if the forces were different, that's why we know they weren't any different.

It promotes the salvation of man, and triumph of good over evil. If you cry about the evil not winning too much or having the evil rights violated...well, sorry. I do not want wicked demons and men ruining the plan of my salvation, and the earth.

God is not violating the angel rights in kicking them out of heaven, nor violating the evil people by taking over the world forever soon. He is protecting His people from being violated by them.

did you even read what I wrote? Again - "There's a far easier argument to be made for your holy book promoting genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order well before you could blame science for any of the negative ilk you want to attribute to it."

are you seriously suggesting God DID promote these things in the bible to "teach us a lesson" for not being part of his chosen middle-east tribe?

They ought to believe the bible.

well, they Do, so address the question, or again, are you suggesting these Christians don't follow the Bible? ....are you suggesting they aren't Christians to begin with??

Either they know...or not. Ha.

and plenty of them don't. In fact, more of the World doesn't know about your deity than do - is he not everyone's God after all, and just the tribal deity of one particular nomadic group in the middle-east that happened to catch on in your particular civilisation?

 

[dad]

In so called science imaginary same state past based time.

I think the imaginary faith based so called science time has man being around for a few million years.

 

[Aman777]

I think the imaginary faith based so called science time has man being around for a few million years.

Depends on your definition of "man". Evols preach that man evolved from the common ancestor of Apes because they find bones of prehistoric people from millions of years ago. Evols have mistaken "man" for prehistoric man but "man" in Scripture is the Hebrew word Adam. Evols believe that prehistoric people magically changed into Humans, the descendants of Adam.

IOW, they are "willingly ignorant" that today's Humans are a combination of the sons of God (prehistoric people) AND the descendants of Adam. Genesis 6:4

 

[dad]

fail.

the salt is between sediments. Sediments that you allege are there because of a worldwide flood. You know, water? Lots and lots of Water??

If I suspect that the flood was probably somewhere around the KT layer, can you show us some layers there with salt? Ha.

so you got nuthn'? Nothing at all for why the results correlate and match in a way that could only occur if the earth was old and the past was the same as it is now. Colour me surprised...

You view the evidence through your little colored religious glasses. Is it supposed to be a surprise that all you see is a certain color? Try looking at it in the light of day.

Dunno... likewise, How can magic Unicorns know a virgin when they see one? How could Harry Potter befriend Hippogryphs so easily? How could Ra pull the Sun across the Sky in his chariot every day? How could Vishnu simply dream the Universe into existence....? How amazing is that, he was asleep and just Dreamt the entire Universe into existence!? ....While he was Asleep!!! ....ASLEEP!!!

While tales of demons might impress some, one cannot invoke them to try and place the actual Almighty One true God in the same category.

or even exist for that matter, because they likely wouldn't if the forces were any different. It'd be pretty obvious if the forces were different, that's why we know they weren't any different.

Whatever change to the former nature happened could not be apparent from the new nature unless we had some idea what to look for. You only know the one.

"There's a far easier argument to be made for your holy book promoting genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order well before you could blame science for any of the negative ilk you want to attribute to it."

Wrong.

Your idea of a woman's place, or how utterly wicked dangerous men should be dealt with, or what is a human right etc..is of no real value when opposing the word of God.

are you seriously suggesting God DID promote these things in the bible to "teach us a lesson" for not being part of his chosen middle-east tribe?

He chose a nation to reach the world with. Like He used people to get the good news of salvation to man. Anyone can be part of it.

are you suggesting these Christians don't follow the Bible? ....are you suggesting they aren't Christians to begin with??

Are you suggesting belief is optional?

more of the World doesn't know about your deity than do - is he not everyone's God after all, and just the tribal deity of one particular nomadic group in the middle-east that happened to catch on in your particular civilisation?

It will catch on for all soon.

 

[dad]

Depends on your definition of "man". Evols preach that man evolved from the common ancestor of Apes because they find bones of prehistoric people from millions of years ago.

No. They use their beliefs as a dating method.

They do not know the past, or what man was like in the earliest days after the flood, or what changes a nature change would have had on mankind, nor what animals may have resembled man somewhat...etc etc etc. They have a fabricated, belief based godless slapped together hodgepodge model that amounts to nothing but tenets of a religion.

Evols have mistaken "man" for prehistoric man but "man" in Scripture is the Hebrew word Adam. Evols believe that prehistoric people magically changed into Humans, the descendants of Adam.

I suppose they do believe something like that, although they probably do not consider it magic.

today's Humans are a combination of the sons of God (prehistoric people) AND the descendants of Adam.

Your preferred interpretation of what sons of god are seems to be more monkey than angel.

 

[Abraxos]

Scientists find the first bird beak, right under their noses

YaleNews
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By Jim Shelton
may 2, 2018
Researchers have pieced together the three-dimensional skull of an iconic, toothed bird that represents a pivotal moment in the transition from dinosaurs to modern-day birds.

Ichthyornis dispar holds a key position in the evolutionary trail that leads from dinosaurian species to today’s avians. It lived nearly 100 million years ago in North America, looked something like a toothy seabird, and drew the attention of such famous naturalists as Yale’s O.C. Marsh (who first named and described it) and Charles Darwin.

Yet despite the existence of partial specimens of Ichthyornis dispar, there has been no significant new skull material beyond the fragmentary remains first found in the 1870s. Now, a Yale-led team reports on new specimens with three-dimensional cranial remains — including one example of a complete skull and two previously overlooked cranial elements that were part of the original specimen at Yale — that reveal new details about one of the most striking transformations in evolutionary history.

“Right under our noses this whole time was an amazing, transitional bird,” said Yale paleontologist Bhart-Anjan Bhullar, principal investigator of a study published in the journal Nature. “It has a modern-looking brain along with a remarkably dinosaurian jaw muscle configuration.”

Perhaps most interesting of all, Bhullar said, is that Ichthyornis dispar shows us what the bird beak looked like as it first appeared in nature.

At its origin, the beak was a precision grasping mechanism that served as a surrogate hand as the hands transformed into wings.

bhart-anjan bhullar

“The first beak was a horn-covered pincer tip at the end of the jaw,” said Bhullar, who is an assistant professor and assistant curator in geology and geophysics. “The remainder of the jaw was filled with teeth. At its origin, the beak was a precision grasping mechanism that served as a surrogate hand as the hands transformed into wings.”

The research team conducted its analysis using CT-scan technology, combined with specimens from the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History; the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, Kan.; the Alabama Museum of Natural History; the University of Kansas Biodiversity Institute; and the Black Hills Institute of Geological Research.

Co-lead authors of the new study are Daniel Field of the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath and Michael Hanson of Yale. Co-authors are David Burnham of the University of Kansas, Laura Wilson and Kristopher Super of Fort Hays State University, Dana Ehret of the Alabama Museum of Natural History, and Jun Ebersole of the McWane Science Center.

“The fossil record provides our only direct evidence of the evolutionary transformations that have given rise to modern forms,” said Field. “This extraordinary new specimen reveals the surprisingly late retention of dinosaur-like features in the skull of Ichthyornis — one of the closest-known relatives of modern birds from the Age of Reptiles.”

The researchers said their findings offer new insight into how modern birds’ skulls eventually formed. Along with its transitional beak, Ichthyornis dispar had a brain similar to modern birds but a temporal region of the skull that was strikingly like that of a dinosaur — indicating that during the evolution of birds, the brain transformed first while the remainder of the skull remained more primitive and dinosaur-like.

“Ichthyornis would have looked very similar to today’s seabirds, probably very much like a gull or tern,” said Hanson. “The teeth probably would not have been visible unless the mouth was open but covered with some sort of lip-like, extra-oral tissue.”

In recent years Bhullar’s lab has produced a large body of research on various aspects of vertebrate skulls, often zeroing in on the origins of the avian beak. “Each new discovery has reinforced our previous conclusions. The skull of Ichthyornis even substantiates our molecular finding that the beak and palate are patterned by the same genes,” Bhullar said. “The story of the evolution of birds, the most species-rich group of vertebrates on land, is one of the most important in all of history. It is, after all, still the age of dinosaurs.”

The research was supported, in part, by Yale University, the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History, the University of Bath, the Alexander Wetmore Memorial Research Award, the Stephen J. Gould Award, and grants from the National Science Foundation, the Yale Institute for Biospheric Studies, the Evolving Earth Foundation, and the Frank M. Chapman Memorial Fund.

Evolutionists need to get their stories straight again, because it's a bit awkward when paleontologists found duck fossils millions of years older than this Ichthyornis, according to their own evolutionary time-frame. Not only ducks but sparrows as well.

If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck it's a duck.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

If I suspect that the flood was probably somewhere around the KT layer, can you show us some layers there with salt? Ha.

as in since then? Sure. the Etosha Pan, which covers approximately 1850 square miles has been a thing for at least 10 to 16 million years (or if you prefer, one quarter of the total time since the K/T boundary, whatever that time might be), see Salt Flats of the World - Then you have the Sergipe Basin in Brazil which formed from a few million years after the K/T extinction event, there's also quite a number of similar salt formations in West Africa too On the Formation of Lower Cretaceous Potassium Salts and Tachhydrite in the Sergipe Basin (Brazil) with Some Remarks on Similar Occurrences in West Africa (Gabon, Angola etc.)

Also, I'll include this for the lurkers, since I know you won't take the time to read it given you have a very important apriori belief to protect, but it goes into great detail on the fossilised life forms of the Etosha Pan, and their progression through time, including birds, mollusks, crocodiles, extinct felines, footprints, nests and burrows... which is odd that animals would be nesting and burrowing throughout the sedimentary layers so fast in violent floodwater that was allegedly consuming the planet at that time... http://www.the-eis.com/data/literature/Mio Plio Pleistocene geology and palaeobiology of Etosha Pan Namibia.pdf

Of course I have no doubt whatsoever that you will hold onto your demonstrably incorrect beliefs despite everything we know. Salt Formations are all throughout the geological column, along with various rock formations that don't form in water, or take a very, very long time to grow where they do form in water, a progressive and ever diverging record of life increasing complexity all throughout the column too, you know, that column where all the flowering plants and sloths easily outran gorgonopsians and therocephalians to higher ground during the flood.

You view the evidence through your little colored religious glasses. Is it supposed to be a surprise that all you see is a certain color? Try looking at it in the light of day.

Nope, I just view the evidence. If only you had evidence for your imagined point of view, then you could view your evidence through those murky glasses of your religion, but alas, you can only deny everyone else's evidence instead since anyone who can think rationally just can't accept your nonsense spin on it - providing you can spin one, that is.

While tales of demons might impress some, one cannot invoke them to try and place the actual Almighty One true God in the same category.

if there is one. I tell you what though, show me why you deny every other religion's God(s) are real and I'll show you why everyone else's religions deny your God is real.

Whatever change to the former nature happened could not be apparent from the new nature unless we had some idea what to look for. You only know the one.

Wishful thinking just doesn't work that way. If any of the fundamental forces were different, everything would be different to the point of being non-sensical to us here and now. Everything makes sense in a seamless manner no matter how far back in time we look in any aspect of science, whether it be light from distant stars everywhere from 4.2 light years away to 13.4 billion light years away, it is consistent in both time and composition, or radiometric dating of rock samples up to 4.5 billion years old, or isotope readings from 800,000 year old ice cores that have undergone isotope changes due to sunlight in summer and lack thereof in winter over yearly cycles, or even lake varves to 160,000 yearly seasons of summer, autumn, winter, spring cycles of leaves, insect larvae, pollen samples and rainfall runoff sediments, all can be used to cross-confirm other methods of reading, and cross-confirmed with actual events we know of having happened in our recorded history.

To not be considered a joke, it's up to you to refute all this correlating evidence we have and know is accurate, not just to whine on about some unfounded 'past state' that doesn't exist.

Wrong.

Your idea of a woman's place, or how utterly wicked dangerous men should be dealt with, or what is a human right etc..is of no real value when opposing the word of God.

Well, If you did half the things the Bible dictates to you, you'd be rightfully thrown in jail, so I'm opposing it and my opposition to these archaic beliefs has more value outright to today's society. I'll just take it that you have no rebuttal on this point then if you can't address it.

He chose a nation to reach the world with. Like He used people to get the good news of salvation to man. Anyone can be part of it.

isn't he powerful enough to reach all of us in an unequivocal way? Why communicate through a handful of people who didn't think to write their first-hand accounts down at the time, and lost languages on missing manuscripts, some of which are set aside even though the Bible refers to these missing passages, etc.

If your God exists, then surely he'd be able to do a better job of communicating with his creation, don't you think?

Are you suggesting belief is optional?

I'm suggesting they are Christian and by extension both believe the bible AND accept the science. That you have an unworkable interpretation of your religion isn't going to poof away all the facts and evidence.

It will catch on for all soon.

It's already too late given the vast majority of the worlds population that has already come and gone with no knowledge of your God. Likewise, you haven't taken the time to learn about all the other world religions that might be worshipping the Real creator of the universe, so how do you know it isn't you that is the misguided soul because a demon of some other God that is the actual creator, has successfully distracted you into believing this religion instead of the real one. You wouldn't know, and you don't seem to care.

How do you know that a powerful evil immortal deity couldn't fool a mere mortal like you?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Evolutionists need to get their stories straight again, because it's a bit awkward when paleontologists found duck fossils millions of years older than this Ichthyornis, according to their own evolutionary time-frame. Not only ducks but sparrows as well.

If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck it's a duck.

Nope, no such thing has happened. You're just wishful thinking now.

Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[dad]

as in since then? Sure. the Etosha Pan, which covers approximately 1850 square miles has been a thing for at least 10 to 16 million years (or if you prefer, one quarter of the total time since the K/T boundary, whatever that time might be), see Salt Flats of the World - Then you have the Sergipe Basin in Brazil which formed from a few million years after the K/T extinction event, there's also quite a number of similar salt formations in West Africa too On the Formation of Lower Cretaceous Potassium Salts and Tachhydrite in the Sergipe Basin (Brazil) with Some Remarks on Similar Occurrences in West Africa (Gabon, Angola etc.)

Also, I'll include this for the lurkers, since I know you won't take the time to read it given you have a very important apriori belief to protect, but it goes into great detail on the fossilised life forms of the Etosha Pan, and their progression through time, including birds, mollusks, crocodiles, extinct felines, footprints, nests and burrows... which is odd that animals would be nesting and burrowing throughout the sedimentary layers so fast in violent floodwater that was allegedly consuming the planet at that time... http://www.the-eis.com/data/literature/Mio Plio Pleistocene geology and palaeobiology of Etosha Pan Namibia.pdf

The progression of what could fossilize probably represents changes after the change in nature, when things started to be able to fossilize (where the fossils are post flood). So the question becomes what are the actual ages. What you call ten million years ago (as opposed to say 70 million years ago) is based on isotope patterns and the time assumed to be needed for your so called progression as viewed through your evo/ancestor belief system.

If the actual times were centuries, rather than millions of years the fossils would take on totally new meaning/perspective.
As for salt in the basin, they say that was a large body of water in the past that dried up.

"At its centre are the Makgadikgadi Pans. These consist of two pans next to each other, with the Sua Pan to the East and the Ntetwe to the West. In addition, there are a number of smaller pans surrounding these main pans, such as Nxai Pan to the north.

How these pans come to be is a matter of debate among geologists; however it is agreed that this region was once part of the vast Lake Makgadikgadi, as a result of radical changes in climate, lost its water supply....After the mass water depletion of Lake Makgadikgadi all that remained was a dry layer of salt and thick Kalahari sand that characterizes the surfaces of this area.

The landscape is completely barren and rock formations are rarity. This ancient layer of sand has preserved fossil remnants dating back hundreds of millions of years. In addition, minerals such as gold, silver, nickel and diamonds have formed beneath the surface due to the extreme temperatures. During seasons of good rainfall, the pans are transformed into large lakes - a confirmation of what the landscape once was."

Geography of the Salt Pans | Kalahari Botswana


So apparently there was a lot of water that left salt. Whoopee do. Your dates are the only issue. Defend them. I see the fossils go back a lot further than your dates...ha.

Salt Formations are all throughout the geological column, along with various rock formations that don't form in water, or take a very, very long time to grow where they do form in water

No one asked how salt would/could/should form in this nature.
The only issue is whether salt could have mixed with water in ages past. Your narrow ideas of how this happened are laughable religion. I kid you not.

show me why you deny every other religion's God(s) are real

Why would i deny fallen angels/demons are real???

Why pretend it is I that have any need to deny the spiritual?? You are projecting!

If any of the fundamental forces were different, everything would be different to the point of being non-sensical to us here and now.

Absurd. Why make stuff up?? Firstly who even says that it was OUR fundamental forces that changed? Think out of the box.

Everything makes sense in a seamless manner no matter how far back in time we look in any aspect of science, whether it be light from distant stars everywhere from 4.2 light years away to 13.4 billion light years away, it is consistent in both time and composition, or radiometric dating of rock samples up to 4.5 billion years old, or isotope readings from 800,000 year old ice cores that have undergone isotope changes due to sunlight in summer and lack thereof in winter over yearly cycles, or even lake varves to 160,000 yearly seasons of summer, autumn, winter, spring cycles of leaves, insect larvae, pollen samples and rainfall runoff sediments, all can be used to cross-confirm other methods of reading, and cross-confirmed with actual events we know of having happened in our recorded history.

It may make sense internally when looked at through the same religion!
Too bad for you it also makes more sense looked at rationally. The beliefs of science, foisted onto all evidences do not need refuting, they need exorcism.

Well, If you did half the things the Bible dictates to you, you'd be rightfully thrown in jail,

?? What you been smoking? Jesus dictated we love each other and God.

isn't he powerful enough to reach all of us in an unequivocal way? Why communicate through a handful of people who didn't think to write their first-hand accounts down at the time, and lost languages on missing manuscripts, some of which are set aside even though the Bible refers to these missing passages, etc.

Why question how He chose to get His message across?

If your God exists, then surely he'd be able to do a better job of communicating with his creation, don't you think?

He wants us to ask. He does not wave away our will and force us.

I'm suggesting they are Christian and by extension both believe the bible AND accept the science.

Fine. You are allowed to express opinions. I would tend to look at how things measure up to His word myself, rather than what people chose to twist/believe.

That you have an unworkable interpretation of your religion isn't going to poof away all the facts and evidence.

If you or anyone can better explain heaven and the spiritual and the garden of Eden and flood and creation...start workin it.

It's already too late given the vast majority of the worlds population that has already come and gone with no knowledge of your God.

Oh? What if they got a chance to hear after? I mean what about babies that had no chance to hear? You thought they (such as the murdered innocents from abortion) were doomed?! No.

Likewise, you haven't taken the time to learn about all the other world religions that might be worshipping the Real creator of the universe,

Rather than believe every spirit, I sought to find the Great Spirit. What people 'worship' does not matter to me.

so how do you know it isn't you that is the misguided soul because a demon of some other God that is the actual creator, has successfully distracted you into believing this religion instead of the real one. You wouldn't know, and you don't seem to care.

Because Jesus rose from the dead ans settled that. The word also laid out when and where exactly He would come, what He would do, when and why He would die, His betrayal price, His burial with the rich, His Resurrection...etc etc etc. Literally hundreds of prophesies detailing what to look for.

No demon could do any of that, let alone all of it.

How do you know that a powerful evil immortal deity couldn't fool a mere mortal like you?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that dark doubt....

Basically that was what Eve and Adam were told. 'Does God really love you, then why can't you eat this one fruit? Did He say you would die...how mean, and you won't reaaalllly die...etc etc'

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

The progression of what could fossilize probably represents changes after the change in nature, when things started to be able to fossilize (where the fossils are post flood). So the question becomes what are the actual ages. What you call ten million years ago (as opposed to say 70 million years ago) is based on isotope patterns and the time assumed to be needed for your so called progression as viewed through your evo/ancestor belief system.

If the actual times were centuries, rather than millions of years the fossils would take on totally new meaning/perspective.
As for salt in the basin, they say that was a large body of water in the past that dried up.

"At its centre are the Makgadikgadi Pans. These consist of two pans next to each other, with the Sua Pan to the East and the Ntetwe to the West. In addition, there are a number of smaller pans surrounding these main pans, such as Nxai Pan to the north.

How these pans come to be is a matter of debate among geologists; however it is agreed that this region was once part of the vast Lake Makgadikgadi, as a result of radical changes in climate, lost its water supply....After the mass water depletion of Lake Makgadikgadi all that remained was a dry layer of salt and thick Kalahari sand that characterizes the surfaces of this area.

The landscape is completely barren and rock formations are rarity. This ancient layer of sand has preserved fossil remnants dating back hundreds of millions of years. In addition, minerals such as gold, silver, nickel and diamonds have formed beneath the surface due to the extreme temperatures. During seasons of good rainfall, the pans are transformed into large lakes - a confirmation of what the landscape once was."

Geography of the Salt Pans | Kalahari Botswana


So apparently there was a lot of water that left salt. Whoopee do. Your dates are the only issue. Defend them. I see the fossils go back a lot further than your dates...ha.

Not sure what, if anything, you're disagreeing with, but I'm going with the demonstrably justified science on this. You can't show it to be any different and I knew that'd be the case. All the facts, evidence and observations I've mentioned to this point, remain unchallenged thus far.

No one asked how salt would/could/should form in this nature.
The only issue is whether salt could have mixed with water in ages past. Your narrow ideas of how this happened are laughable religion. I kid you not.

Still no challenge to any of the facts, evidence and observations I've provided. Also, you still haven't supported your unfounded claims about some non-existent different state past. I kid you not.

Why would i deny fallen angels/demons are real???

Why pretend it is I that have any need to deny the spiritual?? You are projecting!

Well, if anything, your God could be one of the many Hindu Gods, probably a mischievous one at that. Hindu predates all the abahamic religions by a long shot and their theology can accommodate your interpretation of your religion much better than yours could accommodate theirs.

If only there was a way to independently confirm/disprove religions, then we might have a way to see if your personal beliefs have any foundation over their personal beliefs.

Absurd. Why make stuff up?? Firstly who even says that it was OUR fundamental forces that changed? Think out of the box.

....so no challenge to any of the facts, evidence and observations then? Good.

It may make sense internally when looked at through the same religion!
Too bad for you it also makes more sense looked at rationally. The beliefs of science, foisted onto all evidences do not need refuting, they need exorcism.

Great, I challenge you to refute all of the facts, evidence and observations you wish would just go away with your version of "looked at rationally", I can't wait to see you wheel out this "rational thinking" of yours to show us all why all the facts, evidence and observations are wrong... Until then, your posts are just whistles in the wind.

?? What you been smoking? Jesus dictated we love each other and God.

Jesus also dictated that all the old testament laws would be upheld, and not a jot or tittle would be changed until everything in heaven and earth have passed (see Matthew 5:18)- I might not believe in heaven, but I know earth is still here - so there's no wearing cotton/polyester blends for you, no lobster or shellfish, you'll have to stone your naughty kids to death at the edge of town, along with homosexuals, adulterers and virgins who didn't scream loud enough when they were raped in the city and saved for their father's front porch are stoning deaths of your daughters who weren't virgins on their wedding night, you can buy your slaves from the nations around you (I think Africa was the go-to for you guys from memory?), Women are not to have any job or position where they have authority over you and women are not to talk in Church - and that's only if they're allowed to even be there, menstruating women - and women who have recently given birth are to stay away for 33 days - and if they've had a girl, double that to 66 days (after all, what God in their right mind would want THAT in their presence, right??). Anyone working on the sabbath should also be stoned to death for good measure - after all, their blood is on their own hands, right God?

Unless of course we're already dead and risen again because everything in heaven and earth has come to pass and we've all been judged?

Why question how He chose to get His message across?

because he didn't get his message across. Surely if God actually existed and cares for us, we'd know of his existence, right?

He wants us to ask. He does not wave away our will and force us.

Nonsense. Satan knows God exists, doesn't he? What about Paul and his damascus road experience? Why does he get one? Isn't God capable of giving us all our own damascus road experience when we come of age? Will you know God exists when (or if) you go to heaven?

If I were God, I'd have all this fixed in a jiffy.

Fine. You are allowed to express opinions. I would tend to look at how things measure up to His word myself, rather than what people chose to twist/believe.

Well, his 'word' was written by fallible men, even if it were divinely inspired. These anonymous authors obviously didn't understand the universe that their God made, so it's understandably not a science book. Other Christians can and have reconciled their acceptance of science with their faith in God. This is not my opinion. Your interpretation of your religion is what's wrong, not the facts, evidence and observations found here in reality.

If you or anyone can better explain heaven and the spiritual and the garden of Eden and flood and creation...start workin it.

Not my job to find evidence of an allegorical story for you.

Oh? What if they got a chance to hear after? I mean what about babies that had no chance to hear? You thought they (such as the murdered innocents from abortion) were doomed?! No.

lol! Well, what will your God do with all the rational thinking people who earnestly tried, but couldn't find the evidence to believe him from among all the Gods and religions ever presented? How is it my fault your God doesn't understand the nature of evidence and what it would take for me to become a believer?

You know auto-abortions account for 70% to 80% of all human pregnancies? Wouldn't that be your God's will? That makes him your biggest abortionist by a great margin
.

Rather than believe every spirit, I sought to find the Great Spirit. What people 'worship' does not matter to me.

Plenty of people have found their Great Spirit - fact of the matter is, their Great Spirit is not Your Great Spirit. Who is right and how would I, an outsider to all of them, know which is the true Great Spirit?

Because Jesus rose from the dead ans settled that...

No, he Didn't - that's why we're here discussing this. There's no evidence this ever happened. Why would a God choose an unevidenced event to create a loophole for his laws that he put in place?

The word also laid out when and where exactly He would come, what He would do, when and why He would die, His betrayal price, His burial with the rich, His Resurrection...etc etc etc. Literally hundreds of prophesies detailing what to look for.

No demon could do any of that, let alone all of it.

How do you know? Whoever wrote the new testament, had access to the old testament and all its prophetic talk. Do you think these writers could have written to this hindsight (regardless if Jesus really did exist or not)?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that dark doubt....

Basically that was what Eve and Adam were told. 'Does God really love you, then why can't you eat this one fruit? Did He say you would die...how mean, and you won't reaaalllly die...etc etc'

Well the Serpent was right though, because Eve didn't die, did she? Where is Eve now?

 

[dad]

Not sure what, if anything, you're disagreeing with, but I'm going with the demonstrably justified science on this. You can't show it to be any different and I knew that'd be the case. All the facts, evidence and observations I've mentioned to this point, remain unchallenged thus far.

You cannot date any progression of fossils. Call your religious dates whatever you like. It is what it is.

you still haven't supported your unfounded claims about some non-existent different state past. I kid you not.

Since my claim is science doesn't know, yes I have supported it, the ignorance screams out here. The fail is obvious.

As for the bible nature of the past and future, that is above being able to be supported by pathetic present state science.
Your only option is to admit ignorance and apologize for the creation whoppers science has told.

Well, if anything, your God could be one of the many Hindu Gods, probably a mischievous one at that. Hindu predates all the abahamic religions by a long shot and their theology can accommodate your interpretation of your religion much better than yours could accommodate theirs.

No. Impossible. Our God is well known and precisely identified.

If only there was a way to independently confirm/disprove religions, then we might have a way to see if your personal beliefs have any foundation over their personal beliefs.

The religion on trial here is science. There is no independent way to confirm the origin stories it peddles. Fables cannot be confirmed or disproved, nor is there any need to.

Great, I challenge you to refute all of the facts, evidence and observations you wish would just go away with your version of "looked at rationally"

Wy pretend they exist?? You simply mislabel your religious yarns.

, I can't wait to see you wheel out this "rational thinking" of yours to show us all why all the facts, evidence and observations are wrong... Until then, your posts are just whistles in the wind.

ALL facts and evidence agree with the bible. All observations, and all evidences.

Jesus also dictated that all the old testament laws would be upheld,

You kidding? In case it is news to you, what was fulfilled was the prophesies .. not the old outdated bylaws.

and not a jot or tittle would be changed until everything in heaven and earth have passed (see Matthew 5:18)

Not a jot or tittle fail.

- I might not believe in heaven, but I know earth is still here - so there's no wearing cotton/polyester blends for you, no lobster or shellfish, you'll have to stone your naughty kids to death at the edge of town, along with homosexuals, adulterers

Jesus did not stone the adulteress actually. Nor did He stone anyone else. Nor does the bible tell me to have the diet of ancient Israel, etc etc.

and virgins who didn't scream loud enough when they were raped in the city and saved for their father's front porch are stoning deaths of your daughters who weren't virgins on their wedding night, you can buy your slaves from the nations around you (I think Africa was the go-to for you guys from memory?),

Jesus bought no slaves. He set them free. Slavery was something Aboriginals, and peoples all over the world incorporated into their economies long ago.

What, you thought a believer was supposed to not shop at Walmart?

Women are not to have any job or position where they have authority over you

Chapter and verse?

and women are not to talk in Church

So?

- and that's only if they're allowed to even be there, menstruating women - and women who have recently given birth are to stay away for 33 days

There was o church in old testament days...you realize that much?

- and if they've had a girl, double that to 66 days (after all, what God in their right mind would want THAT in their presence, right??). Anyone working on the sabbath should also be stoned to death for good measure - after all, their blood is on their own hands, right God?

If you were a citizen of Israel thousands of years ago, maybe that would apply. Since it doesn't apply to believers now...you are mixing life now with life many thousands of years ago.

Unless of course we're already dead and risen again because everything in heaven and earth has come to pass and we've all been judged?

The end has not yet come. Why would it all be finished now? Try to learn which end is up.

because he didn't get his message across. Surely if God actually existed and cares for us, we'd know of his existence, right?

If we came to Him with a sincere heart.

Nonsense. Satan knows God exists, doesn't he? What about Paul and his damascus road experience? Why does he get one? Isn't God capable of giving us all our own damascus road experience when we come of age? Will you know God exists when (or if) you go to heaven?

You thought all people were the same and needed the same exact experiences? Ha.

If I were God, I'd have all this fixed in a jiffy.

You are not God, so maybe the real God takes time.

Well, his 'word' was written by fallible men, even if it were divinely inspired.

Inspired of God actually as Jesus promised.

These anonymous authors obviously didn't understand the universe that their God made, so it's understandably not a science book.

He inspired the book and created the universe so only He understands it actually. If He did not, we could call it a science book, cause they do not understand.

Other Christians can and have reconciled their acceptance of science with their faith in God. This is not my opinion. Your interpretation of your religion is what's wrong, not the facts, evidence and observations found here in reality.

They need to reconcile the words of the bible that Jesus affirmed were true with what science says. The issue is not what they decide to accept, but what the word says.

lol! Well, what will your God do with all the rational thinking people who earnestly tried, but couldn't find the evidence to believe him from among all the Gods and religions ever presented?

He will give us a chance to decide I would think. Even those who may not be great thinkers.

How is it my fault your God doesn't understand the nature of evidence and what it would take for me to become a believer?

How is it my fault you do not understand He does understand?

You know auto-abortions account for 70% to 80% of all human pregnancies? Wouldn't that be your God's will? That makes him your biggest abortionist by a great margin

The wages of sin is death. Man is in a fallen state now, with all sorts of disease, and weaknesses, and bad things happening. That is no excuse for murder though.
.

Plenty of people have found their Great Spirit - fact of the matter is, their Great Spirit is not Your Great Spirit. Who is right and how would I, an outsider to all of them, know which is the true Great Spirit?

The One true God is revealed in His word over great time. If the 'great spirit' some find does not confess that Jesus came in the fleah and was raised from the dead...it is a phony.

No, he Didn't - that's why we're here discussing this. There's no evidence this ever happened. Why would a God choose an unevidenced event to create a loophole for his laws that he put in place?

How do you know? Whoever wrote the new testament, had access to the old testament and all its prophetic talk. Do you think these writers could have written to this hindsight (regardless if Jesus really did exist or not)?

Well the Serpent was right though, because Eve didn't die, did she? Where is Eve now?

Scripture was not done in a closet. It was known and passed down over thousands of years and preserved meticulously.

Yes Eve died. Both spiritually and later physically.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

You cannot date any progression of fossils. Call your religious dates whatever you like. It is what it is.

I don't share your ignorance. Even if we couldn't date a fossil (of course, we can though), the simple fact that they are still in a sequence where everything we know is derived from an ancestral species will never be found earlier in the sequence than what it came from, I know given your propensity for fanciful versions of reality, You will never disprove it.

Since my claim is science doesn't know, yes I have supported it, the ignorance screams out here. The fail is obvious.

soooo... you think supporting a claim with more claims, is rational? excuse me while I don't partake in your fantasy.

As for the bible nature of the past and future, that is above being able to be supported by pathetic present state science.
Your only option is to admit ignorance and apologize for the creation whoppers science has told.

The time to believe something is when you have evidence to support it, Unless of course, you don't care about what is actually true.

No. Impossible. Our God is well known and precisely identified.

says the christian, who is one of thousands upon thousands of denominations who all believe different things while claiming themselves to be the only "Real" Christians...

so, that'd be Yes actually, it's every bit as possible as you think your interpretation of your religion is. They have a religion that came before any version of your religion did, it has a more plausible theology which better matches what Science has found out about reality and it amply accommodates your religion as a subset of theirs. How did they possibly know that your religion would exist and fit into theirs if they weren't the one true religion?

That's really a long-winded way of me saying "Prove it". I know you can't.

The religion on trial here is science. There is no independent way to confirm the origin stories it peddles. Fables cannot be confirmed or disproved, nor is there any need to.

No origin stories, just what the evidence indicates. Too bad the evidence doesn't indicate anything even remotely close to your fable interpretation of your particular religion.

Wy pretend they exist?? You simply mislabel your religious yarns.

I'll take your Ostrich impersonation as a tacit admission you have conceded the point.

ALL facts and evidence agree with the bible. All observations, and all evidences.

but here in reality, that simply isn't the case.

You kidding? In case it is news to you, what was fulfilled was the prophesies .. not the old outdated bylaws.

none have been confirmed. It must be hard to comprehend that writers of the new testament had access to all the old testament writings and wrote their narratives deades, if not centuries after the fact, and could easily put forth a narrative that matched some, but the simple fact is there's no evidence outside these stories that any prophecy was fulfilled. To the extent any of the vague and imprecise biblical prophecies were fulfilled, is akin to me ordering a steak dinner, and getting it. It just isn't that fantastic.

Not a jot or tittle fail.

not my fable.

Jesus did not stone the adulteress actually. Nor did He stone anyone else. Nor does the bible tell me to have the diet of ancient Israel, etc etc.

I'm doubtful there was even a "Jesus" that stood out from the 1 in 26 people born with the name Jesus at the time, let alone did all of these things you claim...

Chapter and verse?

1 Timothy 2:12

So?

So the Creator of the Universe is a Mysogynist then?

There was o church in old testament days...you realize that much?

Temples then? Tabernacle? In any case, Leviticus 12:4 points out no going to the sanctuary, which is generally a reference to these things, so whatever you wish to substitute for the then "Holy place of worship".

If you were a citizen of Israel thousands of years ago, maybe that would apply. Since it doesn't apply to believers now...you are mixing life now with life many thousands of years ago.

Point out where these laws were repealed then.

The end has not yet come. Why would it all be finished now? Try to learn which end is up.

Rich, coming from you. So you agree then that Matthew 5:18 is still in effect, therefore all the old laws still apply. Thanks for the concession.

If we came to Him with a sincere heart.

Just like you go to Zeus with a sincere heart? I bet you haven't done that yet. Honestly, why would anyone do that on no evidence? Why would you assume Zeus exists so you can go to him with an open heart to see if he's real? Point stands.

You thought all people were the same and needed the same exact experiences? Ha.

Billions of people have come and gone not knowing your God - so if he exists then Yes.

You are not God, so maybe the real God takes time.

....or doesn't exist. both possibilities fit the observations equally well and occams razor would push mine ahead given there's no need for an entire realm of supernatural that itself raises more questions than it answers...

Inspired of God actually as Jesus promised.

well, given his word is still filtered through fallible men, I don't see how it follows that Christians who accept the science don't also believe the bible. You're skirting the issue.

He inspired the book and created the universe so only He understands it actually. If He did not, we could call it a science book, cause they do not understand.

except it doesn't convey any science. If you take the bible literally, then it's even worse then because it doesn't conform to the science.

They need to reconcile the words of the bible that Jesus affirmed were true with what science says. The issue is not what they decide to accept, but what the word says.

Well, if you nail your flag to that mast, then we already know your literal interpretation is wrong. In fact, it's so wrong that it's not even wrong.

He will give us a chance to decide I would think. Even those who may not be great thinkers.

Perfect! Then we're good! We don't have to accept any bible/qur'an/torah/the vedas/homer's iliad, etc. we can just do our thing in our own moral way and sort it out once we're raised after the real God (if any) shows up!

How is it my fault you do not understand He does understand?

Well, it's an odd scenario that a God who supposedly exists would want to have us all beating about the bush believing in a wide variety of incompatible religions because hey all have exactly the same amount of evidence as each other.

The Scientific Method is by far the most reliable method by which we come to the truth of things. Your God doesn't seem to know this, which is why non-believers are the fastest growing demographic in a majority of today's societies

The wages of sin is death. Man is in a fallen state now, with all sorts of disease, and weaknesses, and bad things happening. That is no excuse for murder though.

Nonsense. there's no evidence of a fall, or sin either. Disease, and weakness, and bad things happening have always been around.

The One true God is revealed in His word over great time. If the 'great spirit' some find does not confess that Jesus came in the fleah and was raised from the dead...it is a phony.

Pretty much all the other religions say the opposite and that your religion is the phony. Again, how do we tell the difference? You all have no more evidence for your respective religion than each other - you've just bathed yourself in the delusion that there is more for yours than there is for theirs, it just isn't the case.

Scripture was not done in a closet. It was known and passed down over thousands of years and preserved meticulously.

Yes Eve died. Both spiritually and later physically.

so you agree Eve is in hell then?

On Scripture I have to disagree, there's a variety of versions of the bible, not all of them are the same - I am pretty sure (though not 100%) that pretty much all versions of the bible have references to chapters either not included, or that have been lost. If God wrote the bible as you claim, then why does his word refer to verses not included? Did God make a mistake, or did he miss something in edit?

...or is it that the Bible was over those thousands of years written by fallible men, copied by fallible men, translated by fallible men and compiled into final form by fallible men? I'd have to go the latter.