Do your best to explain Romans 5

[redleghunter]

As far as the rest of the Calvinist stuff, if God elects some but not others that means a being created in His own image was created for the purpose of eternal destruction. That is not, was not, never will be the will of the God who is Love, and it is against His very nature.
It it point blank heresy. Period end of story.

A bit extreme but Calvin has nothing to do with it.

You've seen this before:

Romans 9: NASB
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGHISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[redleghunter]

Like anyone does - through faith. If they don't have faith it is because they haven't made the right choices in life to learn of the father through the holy spirit. Or they have rejected him because they love the world more.

How do we "get" faith when we are already dead in our trespasses and children of wrath (Ephesians 2)?

 

[redleghunter]

Umm, yes. Exactly the case. It works by one choosing to hear Him, believe Him, obey Him. It's really very simple.

How can children of wrath who are spiritually dead in their trespasses accomplish this feat. The dead don't hear. They are dead.

There's only one answer and it ain't "us."

 

[redleghunter]

It sounds a lot like we tend to think that God is passive, lounging in a sofa waiting for these mere mortals to finally do something for Him. God is active, He doesn't just say 'hey do that' and wait comfortably for us to act. God is not a mythological God. The God of the bible is like Jesus, He comes to this earth and acts upon our lives. Even His inaction is an action.

Amen. As such we emulate Him by picking up our cross and deny ourselves as He gave His all for us.

 

[redleghunter]

Correct. So we better choose while we're still alive.

But several times I presented Holy Writ showing we are all dead in our trespasses and only God can make us alive (Ephesians 2).

Is it your view that although we are dead in our trespasses, we have enough innate "goodness" to respond to the Gospel and meet God half way?

Or is it your view we did not inherit the sin of Adam, and as such there is nothing getting in the way of obeying God, keeping his commandments and as such can come to Him in perfect faith?

 

[redleghunter]

Interesting link, it should be understood that the word 'atonement', speaks of the time when the mercy seat was sprinkled with blood. It was once a year, it was just the High Priest,he would pass through the veil into the holy of holies. In the Tabranacle and original Temple God was physically present the, along with his glory. The Shekinah as it's called resembled a cloud or mist but it could get so intends it could drive the priests out of the Temple. When the wanted to kill Joshua it appeared above the Tabranacle and some how drove them back. When Moses asked to see God he said no man can see me and live but I will pass before you and my glory will pass before you. When he did it actually made his face glow and the children of Israel made him.wear a veil. The ark of the covenant was there are there were two angels depicted in hammered gold, the anointed cheribim. In the middle was the mercy seat were the blood was sprinkled.

The Jewish Christians went to Jerusalem every year for the holy convocations, Yum Kill or being the most sacred day of the year. When Paul talks to the about atonement that's what he is talking about.

All found in Leviticus 16. Thanks!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Agreed! But isn't that against the Calvinist teaching?

Not necessarily, the terms sufficient and efficient are important distinctions though. John Calvin himself is an interesting read on the atonement, especially from his commentaries. If anything it should demonstrate a bit of wiggle room for slight disagreement among Calvinists on the "L" of T.U.L.P. which incidentally post-dates Calvin. There are other ways though to harmonize Calvin's commentary on the atonement, like the French Confession he is author of and another confession which passed through Geneva for Calvin's oversight and seal of approval. Still the atonement of Christ is the single greatest event in human history, and it would seem no one "theory" totally accounts for the greatness or scope of it.

 

[Invalidusername]

I don't know why everyone has to keep bringing Calvinism up just because certain people believe in the election and other beliefs that coincidentally agrees with some of his ideas. It feels almost as a cheap shot basically saying that their opinions are invalidated just because Calvinists agree with that one aspect.

Anyways I don't think Roman chapter 5 could be anymore simple. We sinned, Jesus lived a perfect life and bought us as a ransom.

 

[Neogaia777]

Not all will be saved, but only those who choose it (or who God chose to choose it more accurately put)... Whether it will be many or few, we don't know, but it will not be "all"...

Whether this has a bearing on "all peoples salvation" or not, I cannot say...? But, I would say it/this certainly does for some, if not most... Anyway, Paul talks about one necessary first step before salvation and entering into the NC being "submitting to the Law"... The Law was not meant to keep or for us to try and keep and obey... And submitting to it's true, real work, is submitting to the initial judgement and condemnation it brings initially before you can truly enter into the New Covenant... Knowing how bad you are, (better than no one else, "no one else") especially compared to God, which is what the law shows (and our failure in being like God) Anyway, knowing how bad you are before you can know how good you are "declared" to be, only after that though, and only by and with and in Christ or the NC, after submitting to the true work of the OC...

If you do not or have not submitted to the law's or OC true real work and purpose first, I seriously question whether you are truly under the NC or not, or whether or not you are even truly "saved" or not...

Anyway, Romans 5 is pretty clear to me, I don't see what is in question about it...?

Christ and the NC is for all those who will choose to accept it (and, as I said, more accurately for those whom God chose to choose and accept it), anyway, and go through the "process" (of being saved) (walk that/the true path) and enter into the NC... (which involves first accepting a, or the "true purpose" of the OC to be accepted as a necessary first step)... (or submitting first to the true real work of the Law)...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Drought of the Heart]

They had Moses in the wilderness, we have Jesus Christ... We will face tribulations but they are to mold us to be more Christ like...Jesus went to the Cross for every human to have access to God the Father...We all sin and are a work in progress till we die...We could be the thief on the Cross at the last minute. When we love what God did for in Jesus Christ we long to follow His commands...

 

[zoidar]

Did you mean Romans 3?

I didn't, but feel free to you use it, if it helps us to understand Romans 5.

 

[zoidar]

Don't forget that this chapter is part of Paul's overall argument that gentiles can be saved just as Jews can be saved. By "all men" here Paul means "gentiles as well as Jews, no exception by nation."

12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Does this verse really mean: "Through one man, death spread to gentiles as well as Jews" ? It could, but isn't it more likely that Paul is talking about mankind? Is he saying this for us to understand that both Jews and gentiles are under the sin of Adam? Or is he talking about that mankind was brought under sin because of Adam?

 

[zoidar]

How so? Everyone who beholds and believes is not every one.

True, but the atonement was made for everyone, that everyone can recieve Christ though faith, that is what is meant by "all those" and "whoever".

Then your position becomes Universalism

No, not at all, which you see from my answer to your other question.

 

[needhugs]

Do you REALLY want to know? REALLY REALLY?

 

[mark kennedy]

There are too many theories. Only one truth.

Well it's no theory what atonement was in the first century. Exegetical writers describe it as expiration and propitiationx which sound like some pretty esoteric terms when you see unique language being crafted for something like this it means it's a pivotal term. None of the other sacrifices carried the weight, or had the significance of the day of atonement because this one was done in the very pretense of God. When Jesus died, the veil between the holy place and to holy of holies was torn. The High Priest made this sacrifice annually, Christ made it once and for all. When Solomon dedicated the Temple he said' Lord the whole heavens cannot hold you, how much less this Temple made from human hands, by the end of the Holy Convocation that year, the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. At Pentecost were the Jews of the Dispersion including the church Paul is writing to in Romans.

If you would know the significance of the atonement of Chris it's found in the Levitical Law that was a shadow of the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zoidar]

However Universalists would agree.

Quite a conundrum.

Look, I said it because I wanted Nicolaus Mourer to elaborate on his statement.

 

[zoidar]

So you are asking if people have to qualify for it?

For election? I don't understand your question.

 

[mark kennedy]

True, but the atonement was made for everyone, that everyone can recieve Christ though faith, that is what is meant by "all those" and "whoever".

Just as in Adam all die, in Christ all those who recieved Christ are made alive. The language of the text is clear being in Christ is conditional.

 

[zoidar]

Do you REALLY want to know? REALLY REALLY?

I haven't listened to the clips, but isn't L. Ray Smith promoting that everyone will be saved in the end? As much as I would love to believe that, it's not what the Bible teaches. If it was so the warnings would be totally unnecesserary, and also so would repentance. No, what God says he really means. We have to repent and believe.

If we want peace in our lives it's not about believing that everyone will be saved, but believing on Christ unto salvation. It's in fellowship with Christ we find peace.

 

[zoidar]

Just as in Adam all die, in Christ all those who recieved Christ are made alive. The language of the text is clear being in Christ is conditional.

I agree with this. But that is not the full meaning of Roman 5:17 .

"much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

"All" those (meaningly every single person in the world) who receive Christ will be saved. If the teacher says to the class: "Those who want ice cream, hold up your hand". The teacher is talking to everyone, the offer is for everyone, the whole class, received by holding up the hand.