OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[EmSw]

It isn't gnosticism to believe that we do not redeem our own sins but that this is a work done by our Lord through His blood and through the power of the Holy Ghost (for example, see Philippians 2:13, and/or Matthew 1:21).

Yes, faith without works is dead; however, salvation is by a living faith alone. The works in the equation do not have saving power but they are always the result of a bona fide and genuine faith.

So, tell us how a man is saved without works. Do you believe a dead faith will save?

 

[justbyfaith]

We keep His commandments because we love Him; because He loved us first and saved us from our sins (1 John 4:19, Matthew 1:21).

Romans 4:4-5, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God is never going to owe salvation to anyone. Rather, He offers it to us freely as a gift.

re #743.

 

[EmSw]

Do you keep His commandments perfectly? What I am saying is that if you are going to enter in by keeping His commandments, perfection is the only way. Because you are not forgiven by the blood of Christ, if you have not put your hope in the blood of Christ; and therefore the sins you have committed, in that you have not been perfect, will condemn you on the day of judgment.

I am going to say this one more time for you. Jesus said nothing about keeping His commandments perfectly. Now you are bordering on lying. Perfection is not mentioned once when Jesus spoke of keeping His commandments.

If you are going to add your own words to what Jesus said, then I suggest you find others who are like-minded. If you say you know Jesus, but do not keep His commandments, John says you are a liar. I do not pay attention to those who intentionally lie. Get yourself straight pay close attention to what Jesus said.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, tell us how a man is saved without works. Do you believe a dead faith will save?

Of course not. However, we are saved by a living faith alone. The works that accompany a living faith in no way merit our salvation. They are the result of salvation, not the cause. No doubt they define our faith as being living; however Ephesians 2:9 in its context is clear: we are not saved by works.

re #745.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am going to say this one more time for you. Jesus said nothing about keeping His commandments perfectly. Now you are bordering on lying. Perfection is not mentioned once when Jesus spoke of keeping His commandments.

If you are going to add your own words to what Jesus said, then I suggest you find others who are like-minded. If you say you know Jesus, but do not keep His commandments, John says you are a liar. I do not pay attention to those who intentionally lie. Get yourself straight pay close attention to what Jesus said.

It is certainly not a lie; but you are in denial of the plain testimony of what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48.

Also, there are plenty of people like-minded to what I believe in this very thread.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did not say it includes all 'believers'. Why do you want to add to what Jesus said? He said those who do good are included in the resurrection of life.



Again, you added to what Jesus said. He did not say the second resurrection includes all unbelievers. He said it includes all who do evil.



You have added to what Jesus said, and then run with it. You better pay attention to what Jesus said. He said those who do good will come forth at the first resurrection, and those who do evil will come forth at the resurrection of damnation. You can play games with us all you want, but your games will not be of any good before Jesus.

So @EmSw, you have never done evil? Because if you have, the verse you are quoting condemns you to the resurrection of damnation.

 

[justbyfaith]

edited #746. And #749.

 

[GodsGrace101]

John 5:29 tells us that there will be TWO resurrections. The 1st is the resurrection of LIFE and it includes ALL believers.

The 2nd is the resurrection of judgment and it will be for ALL unbelievers of all the ages and will be at the end of the Millennium.

ALL of the unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire and ALL believers will be in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride of Christ or New Jerusalem.

Therefore IMO understanding, we as believers in Christ are SAVED from the judgment of God which is the Lake of Fire and it is according to the Scripture the 2nd DEATH.

There are a couple of things to be said for the above.
I read the scriptues and I don't add or subtract anything to them. It seems like your adding to them.

Paul said it is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

Is there scripture that contradicts this??

Also, I don't remember Jesus speaking about this judging idea except to say the He and the Father will judge. In some places it says that Jesus will judge and sometimes it says that God will judge.
Mathew 25:31
John 5:22
James 5:9
These verses sound like Jesus will judge one time, at death I believe.

God is the judge.
Hebrews 12:23
Hebrews 10:30
Romans 2:16

I've never studied eschatology and know little about it.
But it seems from the above verses that men will die and then they will be judged by their works. Even those that believed in Jesus because of what He said in Mathew 7:23. Not all who cry, Lord, Lord will be saved but those who do the will of the Father.
Mathew 7:21

1 Peter 4:17-19 also sounds to me like all will be judged according to what they do.
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

IOW, I don't see all this talk about just believing in Jesus and all will be right. I see that we are also to obey and live a good life in service to God -- however that may be.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually the passage you posted is not debatable at all IMO. When the read the Scriptures in whole and contextually we can see that 1 Corth. 3:11-15 is referring to the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST as listed in the Revelation chapter 20.

The works mentioned in 1 Corth. have nothing to do with EARNING or LOSING ones salvation at all. The REWARDS or loss of such, pertain only to Christians.

The suffering of "LOSS" is not about salvation but of losing a REWARD.

Ha!
I know some really intelligent persons who believe this chapter is referring to teachers of the word and not to followers of Christ. I do see this in these verses, but I only comment on what I feel secure about.

(1 corinthians 3:11-15)

 

[amariselle]

I am going to say this one more time for you. Jesus said nothing about keeping His commandments perfectly. Now you are bordering on lying. Perfection is not mentioned once when Jesus spoke of keeping His commandments.

If you are going to add your own words to what Jesus said, then I suggest you find others who are like-minded. If you say you know Jesus, but do not keep His commandments, John says you are a liar. I do not pay attention to those who intentionally lie. Get yourself straight pay close attention to what Jesus said.

One cannot say they keep His commandments if one does not keep them perfectly. If we offend in one, we offend in all. If the keeping of said commandments is required for salvation, then those commandments must be kept perfectly. God will not accept anything other than a sacrifice free of spot or blemish.

 

[amariselle]

You have added to what Jesus said, and then run with it. You better pay attention to what Jesus said. He said those who do good will come forth at the first resurrection, and those who do evil will come forth at the resurrection of damnation. You can play games with us all you want, but your games will not be of any good before Jesus.

Let's back up and look at the context of that verse, so that we can understand what Jesus meant.

John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, how does Jesus teach that one passes "from death to life"? By behaving well enough? Or by hearing His word and believing? (Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God).

In context the "good" that is done is to hear the word of Christ and believe. The "evil" is, by contrast, is unbelief and rejecting the Son in whom life is found.

These verses do not speak of works.

 

[Major1]

Ten witnesses are more powerful than one.

So tell us, why would one not want to keep His commandments. How do you prove you love Him? How do you prove you know Him? If you say you know Him (using whatever definition of know you want), and do not keep His commandments, John calls you a liar, and you have no truth in you.

So please tell us why keeping His commandments is not important to salvation.

Of course that is true but it is also just as true that you completely ignored a clear and polite question simply because you wanted to.

NO ONE, NOT one single person has said anything about NOT wanting to keep the commandments of God. I have said now about 5 times that every single Christian should try and keep the commandments of God. The problem is that it is impossible to do so.

And again, there is NO Scriptures which you can provide, that when taken by context say that works are needed for salvation. That is YOUR theology and it is not Bible truth in any way.

YOU are simple wrong in your theology my friend. You can say it over and over and over but that will not make it so.

To believe what you are espousing, we will have to remove literally hundreds of Scriptures from the Bible.

 

[Major1]

Ha!
I know some really intelligent persons who believe this chapter is referring to teachers of the word and not to followers of Christ. I do see this in these verses, but I only comment on what I feel secure about.

(1 corinthians 3:11-15)

They must not be too intelligent. Where in those Scriptures can we find the word...…
"TEACHERS"??????

The words are...…."If ANY MANS Work...….".

Now the CONTEXT is found in 1 Corth. 3:10...……….
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it."

Then another thought is doesn't a "teacher" of the Word of God have to be a Christian? How do you separate between the two to make that a true statement that is only refers to TEACHERS.

I am sorry sister but that is not acceptable to me.

Consider verse 15...……..
"IF ANY MANS WORK shall be burned, HE shall suffer loss but HE HIMSELF shall be saved, yet so as by fire".

Do YOU personally think that means it refers to "TEACHERS"???

 

[Major1]

Let's back up and look at the context of that verse, so that we can understand what Jesus meant.

John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, how does Jesus teach that one passes "from death to life"? By behaving well enough? Or by hearing His word and believing? (Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God).

In context the "good" that is done is to hear the word of Christ and believe. The "evil" is, by contrast, is unbelief and rejecting the Son in whom life is found.

These verses do not speak of works.

Agreed!

Do you ever sit and when you read these Scriptures and it sounds so simple to you and then you wonder how some people can not understand what they say?

 

[Major1]

One cannot say they keep His commandments if one does not keep them perfectly. If we offend in one, we offend in all. If the keeping of said commandments is required for salvation, then those commandments must be kept perfectly. God will not accept anything other than a sacrifice free of spot or blemish.

AND...…….if we fail to keep one, we are then guilty of breaking ALL of them.

What a terrible and scary way to live ones life. That is if of course if they are really keeping all the commandments to begin with or just saying that they are.

If any person says that they are keeping the commandments...….I would love to talk with their spouce for just 5 minutes and I bet we would hear a different story.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

One cannot say they keep His commandments if one does not keep them perfectly. If we offend in one, we offend in all. If the keeping of said commandments is required for salvation, then those commandments must be kept perfectly. God will not accept anything other than a sacrifice free of spot or blemish.

“ you are to be PERFECT , even as you’re Father in Heaven is perfect”
The deluded are welcome to “ have at it”. God’s not interested in progress- He demands perfection. Best of luck with that strategy for your salvation.
As for myself , I follow a different demand .The demand to follow a Promise Of God.Its called Paul’s Gospel, given to Paul personally by Jesus Christ.1cir15:1 .If I simply believe that without adding ANY works to it, I am saved.Sins or lack of sins is not the issue this side of the Cross.All sins have been paid for. It is your faith that will either save you or damn you.The walk of faith is not always easy— it was not meant to be.But at least it is possible.Trying to be “ good enough” appeals to a mans pride and ignorance,but it is utterly impossible as a way to attain God’s favor.All of this “ do do this, and don’t do that” hogwash some of you are so concerned about don’t amount to a hill of beans.Put your faith in the Gospel thAt you will be JUDGED by.Spend time concentrating on that which will determine how you will spend eternity.That sin issue was put to rest 2000 years ago by The Shed Blood. What should matter to you now is whether you “ cash in”
On it. “ the righteous (the perfect) by faith shall live”.

 

[amariselle]

“ you are to be PERFECT , even as you’re Father in Heaven is perfect”
The deluded are welcome to “ have at it”. God’s not interested in progress- He demands perfection. Best of luck with that strategy for your salvation.
As for myself , I follow a different demand .The demand to follow a Promise Of God.Its called Paul’s Gospel, given to Paul personally by Jesus Christ.1cir15:1 .If I simply believe that without adding ANY works to it, I am saved.Sins or lack of sins is not the issue this side of the Cross.All sins have been paid for. It is your faith that will either save you or damn you.The walk of faith is not always easy— it was not meant to be.But at least it is possible.Trying to be “ good enough” appeals to a mans pride and ignorance,but it is utterly impossible as a way to attain God’s favor.All of this “ do do this, and don’t do that” hogwash some of you are so concerned about don’t amount to a hill of beans.Put your faith in the Gospel thAt you will be JUDGED by.Spend time concentrating on that which will determine how you will spend eternity.That sin issue was put to rest 2000 years ago by The Shed Blood. What should matter to you now is whether you “ cash in”
On it. “ the righteous (the perfect) by faith shall live”.

"Trying to be 'good enough' appeals to a mans pride and ignorance, but it is utterly impossible as a way to attain God’s favor."

Exactly.

 

[GodsGrace101]

They must not be too intelligent. Where in those Scriptures can we find the word...…
"TEACHERS"??????

The words are...…."If ANY MANS Work...….".

Now the CONTEXT is found in 1 Corth. 3:10...……….
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it."

Then another thought is doesn't a "teacher" of the Word of God have to be a Christian? How do you separate between the two to make that a true statement that is only refers to TEACHERS.

I am sorry sister but that is not acceptable to me.

Consider verse 15...……..
"IF ANY MANS WORK shall be burned, HE shall suffer loss but HE HIMSELF shall be saved, yet so as by fire".

Do YOU personally think that means it refers to "TEACHERS"???

It refers to the teacher's work.
I'll answer more tomorrow. Too tired right now...
Read it again...the Apostles are laying a foundation,,,in that sense they are "teachers".

 

[amariselle]

AND...…….if we fail to keep one, we are then guilty of breaking ALL of them.

What a terrible and scary way to live ones life. That is if of course if they are really keeping all the commandments to begin with or just saying that they are.

If any person says that they are keeping the commandments...….I would love to talk with their spouce for just 5 minutes and I bet we would hear a different story.

I used to live that way. I was so often in a state of despair, because I knew I wasn't fooling myself, I failed every day. I had become convinced that one of these days God just was going to say "enough is enough" and be done with me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's back up and look at the context of that verse, so that we can understand what Jesus meant.

John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, how does Jesus teach that one passes "from death to life"? By behaving well enough? Or by hearing His word and believing? (Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God).

In context the "good" that is done is to hear the word of Christ and believe. The "evil" is, by contrast, is unbelief and rejecting the Son in whom life is found.

These verses do not speak of works.

Hello sister,

I think I have to disagree with you there. It is speaking of works (as evidenced by the words "done good" and "done evil").

However, the way I see this scripture is that all of us have done evil and therefore by default we all will be raised unto the resurrection of damnation.

Nevertheless, Christ died for us and took away our sins (1 John 3:5), so that our evil deeds are no longer counted against us (Romans 4:6-8). And therefore if we are in Christ, we will be raised unto the resurrection of life; because our evil deeds will not be counted against us but we will rather be rewarded for the good that we will do because of walking in the Spirit (see Ephesians 2:10).

Now if we are covered with the blood of Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit, our righteousness is as fine linen (Revelation 19:8).

However, if we are not in Christ, all the good we do will be counted as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6); it will be counted as unrighteousness, though it be our righteousnesses that we would attempt to bring before God, like Cain who brought the fruit of the ground as a sacrifice to God but it was not accepted; but Abel's sacrifice of a lamb was accepted.