OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[amariselle]

I'm sorry, I didn't know Jesus said to exegete correctly to have proper understanding. This is man's way of understanding things. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, not some exegesis on man's part.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who, specifically, was Jesus speaking to?

 

[amariselle]

Then how is a believer saved when bad fruit is in his life?

Everyone who has ever been saved has been saved through Christ, period. There is no other Name.

 

[amariselle]

It not only points to Jesus, but every word is Jesus Himself.

Every word is indeed inspired by God.

I am a Gentile under the teachings of Jesus. Did Jesus teach truths before the cross?

Of course. Many things He taught were about the Kingdom and, He was clear, during His earthly ministry, He was sent only to the “lost sheep of Israel.”

Actually Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. You are teaching something contrary to Jesus.

Actually I’m not. I have not said one thing that is not confirmed in His inspired word. Do you believe Paul taught contrary to Jesus as well?

As for keeping the commandments, obviously Jesus knows the Law was only added because of transgressions, 430 years after the Gospel was preached to Abraham. The Law is a schoolmaster to point us to Christ, so, what or Who was Jesus ultimately pointing to when He spoke those words?

Himself.

The only true life anyone can ever have is in the Son, not in the Law.

Many will not enter because they do not strive to enter. They do not listen to Jesus and do what He says.

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The “narrow way” is Jesus Himself. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

You can listen to the majority of people who say keeping the commandments is NOT the way to enter life, and know that the narrow way is not what many believe, for they happily will enter the wide gate. It's a few who enter the narrow gate that leads to life, for only a few find it.

Actually, the wide gate is works based salvation. Do a study on world religions, they almost all teach some kind of earn your way to heaven/eternal life doctrine.

True Christian faith is different. Scripture is clear, no one will be justified by the Law or their “good works” in the sight of God. We are saved by the obedience of ONE.

 

[GodsGrace101]

First, what I THINK is not important.

Then, What do I think that we are saved FROM. All I know is what the Bible says.
Romans 5:9.........…
"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ,,,,,,,,,,,,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death as seen in Rom. 6:23. Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

As for ETERNAL LIFE. ALL humans have eternal life. WHERE you spend it is your choice and there are two,,,,,,heaven and hell.

I believe we are saved from the bondage to sin and eternal death. Bondage to sin causes us to be under the wrath of God.
So I agree.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You said...……..
"Jesus will be judging us by our good works."

That is incorrect sister. OUR sin was judged and placed upon the Lord Jesus Christ and He paid for our sin when He died for us.

Dr. Billy Graham correctly said that...…………
(Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.)
"One of the Bible’s greatest truths is that when we turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith, God forgives our sins and gives us the gift of eternal life. We no longer need to fear death or Hell or judgment, because Christ endured them for us. As the Bible says, “He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

At the same time, the Bible tells us that some day each of us will stand before God. If we have denied Him and refused to follow Him, we will be judged for our unbelief. God will say, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). These are sobering words, and they should make every one of us stop and be sure of our commitment to Christ.

If we know Christ, however, our salvation is already assured. We’ll still stand before God – but not to be judged for our salvation. Instead, we will stand before God to be rewarded for our good deeds.

The Bible says, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).

These too are sobering words, reminding us that we are accountable to God for the way we live as believers.

Well, you can believe what you wrote, and I do, BTW, agree with Colossiand and 2 Corinthians...
BUT, what I posted is JESUS saying what HE stated.

I just post HIS words, you can do with them as you see fit.
John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus is saying the above. He will judge...those who did good deeds to life, and those who committed evil deeds to judgement or condemnation, as some bibles translate.

One can turn words around however they like, but Jesus speaks very clearly.

As to your posts:
Colossians 2:13
We are forgiven our transgressions through Christ.
Correct, of course.

2 Corinthians 5.10
We will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ that each one may be recompensed for his deeds, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Correct again.

This is your last sentence:
These too are sobering words, reminding us that we are accountable to God for the way we live as believers.

Amen to that!

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is called "Substitutionary Atonement". The exact words...…..from memory, I do not believe that the "Jesus died in our place" is in the Bible.

1 Peter 2:24 …….
“And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”

Romans 5:8...…….
" But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 15:3 ...….
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

The correct exegesis of the Scriptures however is that Jesus Christ died in our place when He was crucified on the cross. We deserved to be the ones placed on that cross to die because we are the ones who live sinful lives. But Christ took the punishment on Himself in our place—He substituted Himself for us and took what we rightly deserved.

This is one of many atonement theories.
I like the Christus Victor myself.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sister. Mr Bond said the following...……………

jamesbond007 said: ↑
"To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me."

He just said as I posted for you that "We must redeem our sins".
He just said as I posted for you that "Just believing in Jesus DOES NOT REDEEM OUR SINS".

Are you real sure that you want to say he is 100% correct and agree with his comments???????

Yes. I do agree with @jamesbond007 .

It's all language...I know exactly what he means.

We need Jesus to redeem our sins.
He's saying that just saying that we believe is not enough.
This would be faith only --- something I never even heard of before these forums.

Jesus did not want us only to have some kind of mental belief in Him,,,He wants us to obey Him and follow His commandments.

If JB is saying that we must change our life and that the Holy Spirit is our helper in doing this...what can I possibly disagree with?

Repent means exactly what he said it means.
Being sorry might be an ELEMENT of repenting,
but repenting and being sorry are two different ideas.
Surely you know this...

And by works, I'm sure he means that we are to do what God would have us to do AFTER we are saved.

NO ONE on this thread has ever said that we are saved by works.

 

[EmSw]

I didn’t say otherwise. I was referring to salvation.

Yep.

And how was He “manifested” for us and for our salvation? (It wasn’t through the Law of Moses)

Yes.

Jesus does not “manifest” Himself through the Law, which was a “schoolmaster” to point us to Christ and “stop our mouths” in guilt before God.

Jesus is the Mediator of a much better Covenant and is not a High Priest after the Levitical order, but after “the order of Melchizedek.” He “manifests” Himself in the Gospel. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:14-15

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. - 1 John 3:5

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? - Galatians 3:1

Why wasn't He manifested through the law of Moses? Have you read this?

John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

It is to those who have and keep His commandments, that He manifests Himself. Judas then asks how He will manifest Himself to us and not the world. Then Jesus answered, 'If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.'

Are you saying His commandments and word are not of the law? Do you not know what Jesus said about Moses and the Prophets?

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Do you not see that things written in the LAW of Moses, in the prophets, and in the Psalms were concerning Jesus? How is it you say Jesus wasn't manifested in the law of Moses? Did you not read to those who have and keep His commandments (from the law of Moses) are the ones He manifests Himself?

Rest assured, you haven’t educated me on the will of the Father. I know it full well.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is 'seeth the Son and believeth on Him' again. You didn't say anything about my earlier comment, which was no one can see Jesus without Jesus manifesting Himself to them. And He manifests Himself to those who have and keep His commandments.

 

[EmSw]

In what way? All true believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and He does guide us. Not all true believers are foundational apostles, however. Now we “earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.”

Does the Holy Spirit treat apostles differently than laymen? Does the Holy Spirit give different truth to apostles than to laymen?

 

[EmSw]

Who, specifically, was Jesus speaking to?

Really?

 

[EmSw]

Everyone who has ever been saved has been saved through Christ, period. There is no other Name.

We weren't talking about Jesus' name. We were talking how those with bad fruit are saved.

 

[amariselle]

Why wasn't He manifested through the law of Moses? Have you read this?

John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

It is to those who have and keep His commandments, that He manifests Himself. Judas then asks how He will manifest Himself to us and not the world. Then Jesus answered, 'If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.'

Are you saying His commandments and word are not of the law?

What does it mean, according to Scripture, to “keep the words of Jesus” in regard to salvation? How are we taught in Scripture that we receive the Holy Spirit? By faith according to the grace of God? Or by works of the Law?

Do you not know what Jesus said about Moses and the Prophets?

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Do you not see that things written in the LAW of Moses, in the prophets, and in the Psalms were concerning Jesus? How is it you say Jesus wasn't manifested in the law of Moses? Did you not read to those who have and keep His commandments (from the law of Moses) are the ones He manifests Himself?

Jesus specifically said He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it, and that is exactly what He did. And yes, the “prophets” all spoke of Him. I have not denied that. All Scripture points to Christ, and the Law, specifically cannot save and was added because of transgressions, 430 years after the Gospel was preached to Abraham, and this Law never annulled the Gospel.

There is 'seeth the Son and believeth on Him' again. You didn't say anything about my earlier comment, which was no one can see Jesus without Jesus manifesting Himself to them. And He manifests Himself to those who have and keep His commandments.

Go back and read what I wrote. I did address that.

 

[amariselle]

We weren't talking about Jesus' name. We were talking how those with bad fruit are saved.

When talking about salvation, there is one answer and one answer only.

 

[amariselle]

Really?

Yes, really.

 

[amariselle]

Does the Holy Spirit treat apostles differently than laymen? Does the Holy Spirit give different truth to apostles than to laymen?

The foundational apostles most definitely were given very unique and specific roles in the building of God’s Church. And God chose specific people throughout history to write His word, yes. We have that same truth to read today.

 

[EmSw]

Every word is indeed inspired by God.

Of course. Many things He taught were about the Kingdom and, He was clear, during His earthly ministry, He was sent only to the “lost sheep of Israel.”

Then why do you believe in Jesus if His ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel? Actually came to SEEK them. He brought the good news of the kingdom to them. However, that does not mean the truth He taught was for them only. Truth is eternal and not biased towards anyone. Do you think His truths left you out of the mix?

Actually I’m not. I have not said one thing that is not confirmed in His inspired word. Do you believe Paul taught contrary to Jesus as well?

Will you confirm these words of Jesus -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Or, will you deny they are for you?

Paul is no different than you or me. Any word he taught must contain the truth Jesus taught. You tell me, did Paul teach differently than Matthew 19:17?

As for keeping the commandments, obviously Jesus knows the Law was only added because of transgressions, 430 years after the Gospel was preached to Abraham. The Law is a schoolmaster to point us to Christ, so, what or Who was Jesus ultimately pointing to when He spoke those words?

Jesus did not say that. Either you are going to believe the words of Jesus, or you will add to what He said. You need to read everything Jesus said about the law, and then form your beliefs around them.

The only true life anyone can ever have is in the Son, not in the Law.

Psalm 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

You forgot that God told OT saints to keep His commandments and live. I showed you earlier Moses and the Prophets were concerning Jesus. To David, the law was his delight and the apple of his eye.

The “narrow way” is Jesus Himself. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Actually, the wide gate is works based salvation. Do a study on world religions, they almost all teach some kind of earn your way to heaven/eternal life doctrine.

True Christian faith is different. Scripture is clear, no one will be justified by the Law or their “good works” in the sight of God. We are saved by the obedience of ONE.

Actually you made that up; the wide gate is not a works-base salvation. You made it up to confirm your beliefs.

Yes, all religions do, including the religion of Jesus. However, you have added 'earn' to confirm your belief again. No one earns salvation by works. People are only saved by obeying the words of Jesus. Apparently you don't know the difference between earn and obey.

 

[amariselle]

Then why do you believe in Jesus if His ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel?

I am referring to many of His teachings on the Kingdom during His earthly ministry. As I specifically said. And Jesus did in fact say those words, so if you take issue with them your issue is with Him, not me.

Actually came to SEEK them. He brought the good news of the kingdom to them. However, that does not mean the truth He taught was for them only. Truth is eternal and not biased towards anyone. Do you think His truths left you out of the mix?

I believe we must “rightly divide the word of truth.” Do you believe that OT Israel’s land promises under the Old Covenant are for you as well? We absolutely must understand context, and part of that is knowing who Jesus spoke to, when and why.

Will you confirm these words of Jesus -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Or, will you deny they are for you?

I addressed this already.

Paul is no different than you or me. Any word he taught must contain the truth Jesus taught.

Paul is no different in the matter of salvation, but he was in fact chosen for a purpose that none of us today have. (As with all of the other foundational apostles.)

You tell me, did Paul teach differently than Matthew 19:17?

Nothing Paul taught contradicts anything else in Scripture.

Jesus did not say that. Either you are going to believe the words of Jesus, or you will add to what He said. You need to read everything Jesus said about the law, and then form your beliefs around them.

I was referring to the one single verse you keep quoting. Who was He speaking to and who was He pointing that individual towards?

Psalm 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

You forgot that God told OT saints to keep His commandments and live. I showed you earlier Moses and the Prophets were concerning Jesus. To David, the law was his delight and the apple of his eye.

Scripture is clear, there is indeed nothing wrong with the Law, the problem is with us. We cannot keep it, and so we cannot be saved by it.

Actually you made that up; the wide gate is not a works-base salvation. You made it up to confirm your beliefs.

Actually, I didn’t. Jesus Christ is the Narrow Way. Anything else (like our works) is the “broad way that leads to distruction.” By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified in His sight.

Yes, all religions do, including the religion of Jesus.

False.

However, you have added 'earn' to confirm your belief again. No one earns salvation by works. People are only saved by obeying the words of Jesus. Apparently you don't know the difference between earn and obey.

Works are works and grace is grace. Scripture is clear, salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.

 

[EmSw]

What does it mean, according to Scripture, to “keep the words of Jesus” in regard to salvation? How are we taught in Scripture that we receive the Holy Spirit? By faith according to the grace of God? Or by works of the Law?

Jesus didn't mention either grace nor works of the law as the medium of receiving the Holy Spirit. But do have this from Jesus -

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Here again, Jesus mentions keeping His commandments right before speaking of the Comforter abiding with us. The Spirit of Truth cannot be received by the world, because it doesn't see him, neither does it know Him. If the world doesn't see the HS, then the HS hasn't been manifested to them.

As we saw previously, it is to those who have and keep His commandments that Jesus manifests Himself.

Jesus specifically said He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it, and that is exactly what He did. And yes, the “prophets” all spoke of Him. I have not denied that. All Scripture points to Christ, and the Law, specifically cannot save and was added because of transgressions, 430 years after the Gospel was preached to Abraham, and this Law never annulled the Gospel.

Yes, He did not abolish the law, therefore, the law still exists. It is now in the hearts of His followers.

The law did save. You would find this if you knew what the law and the prophets have said.

I have already told you the gospel Abraham heard was not the Gospel Jesus preached.

 

[EmSw]

When talking about salvation, there is one answer and one answer only.

And the one and only Answer told us plainly.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Actually, @jamesbond007 is 100% correct.

Maybe we should all stop checking out the net and go to a good church -- that would be the place to get some "good, biblical teaching"...in your very own words.

Or, even properly reading the bible would be of some help...
Jesus will be judging us by our good works.
John 5:28-29

There is an abundance of great, solid Bible teaching available on the net.The vast majority of churches are teaching their versions of legalism and are merely preaching morality and religion and boring feel- good sermons. Why think your church is the best just because that’s where mommy and daddy went. One should go where the best teaching is—- whether it be up the block, two towns away, on the internet or on top of Mt Everest.