OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[justbyfaith]

I wrote:

This statement by Jesus about rejoicing angels clearly refers to, and concludes, the Parable of the Lost Coin. The statement does not directly relate to the Parable of the Prodigal; there is no parallel remark made at the end of the Prodigal parable. It seems evident to me, then, that the point of the Lost Coin parable is not identical to the point(s) made by Jesus in his Prodigal Son parable. Why, then, should I think the verse you cited has any direct bearing on the Prodigal parable?

justbyfaith wrote:

Because it is in the word of God, and scripture interprets scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.

Yes, Scripture does interpret Scripture but how, for instance, does "Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself," (Matthew 27:5)
interpret "And when Baal-Hanan the son of Achbor died, Hadar reigned in his place; and the name of his city was Pau. His wife's name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab"? (Genesis 36:39) Obviously, not every verse of Scripture interprets every other verse of Scripture. And so, I can make separations between thoughts, and themes, and ideas in God's word and thus say what I did about the parables of the Lost Coin and the parable of Prodigal Son.

Okay, fine; however the parable of the lost coin and the parable of the prodigal son are in the same immediate context and are actually different parables explaining the same exact principle, along with the parable of the 99 and 1 sheep.

They may not be vain but they were inaccurate, specious, and mistaken.



??? Was it not God Himself who through His prophet said, "Come, let us reason together..."? (Isaiah 1:18) Debate is simply a means of doing so. Now, endless debate that exists for its own sake is wrong, but debate through which the truth is obtained and clarified, well, that's exactly what Christians - starting with the apostles - have been doing since the advent of Christianity into human history.

Jude 1:3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Didn't Jesus repeatedly contend with the Pharisees? Yup. How about Paul and Peter? Yes, they got into it with the religious leaders, too. I don't see, then, how you arrive at the notion from Scripture that debate, and rules of logic and proper argument are "something God doesn't want us to do."



I'm afraid that this simply isn't so. Arguing for the purpose of sowing discord and strife is prohibited in Scripture, but debate that defends and clarifies God's truth has been essential over the centuries to the preservation and establishment of the Church and correct doctrine.

I'll agree with you there. Contending for the faith might be defined differently than sowing discord and strife. The latter is my definition of debate mode, argument for argument's sake. I suggest that you also look up the verses (Romans 1:29 and 2 Corinthians 12:10) to see what I am saying about the scripture's indictment on what it in those verses calls debate.

I wrote:

Well, if I've purchased medication at the behest of my doctor for the treatment of, say, pneumonia and I come to believe that the medication won't help and refuse to take it, does the medication cease to be mine? No. I am cut off by my unbelief from its medicinal benefit, but the medicine is still mine. In the same way, salvation may be emptied of most of its spiritual benefit and the believer made useless to God by the believer's unbelief, but they may still be in possession of their membership in God's family.

justbyfaith wrote:

The person would very likely die from pneumonia. What kind of salvation is that?

As I already explained to another poster who said much the same thing as you've said here, the point of the analogy wasn't about being sick but about possession of the medicine whether or not it is used. Your observation completely ignores this point.

So you're saying the analogy is inconsistent. Because if having the medicine is related to having salvation but if I don't take the medicine I am not availing myself of it, and if I don't avail myself of it I die, what happens to me if I have salvation but don't avail myself of it (as in not taking the medicine and dying from pneumonia as the result?) Do I die? What is the equivalent of dying from pneumonia as relates to its parallel of salvation?

 

[jamesbond007]

Justification isn't (Romans 5:1)


We have talked about this before. First of all, the only way we can ever find the ability to be obedient to His commandments is through faith in Jesus Christ (see John 15:1-8).

Secondly, when Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, he knew that he had a works mentality. In the back of His mind, Jesus wanted the rich young ruler to be saved by His grace (see, for example, John 1:14); but as many preachers are aware of, most people will not be responsive to grace until they first hear the message of the law which tells them in the long run that they can never measure up to the righteousness of the Lord in their own lives. They must understand that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. And the law is a perfect way of showing this to the one who honestly measures his own life against it (see Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20). So Jesus, in one of the gospels, adds, Defraud not, which is not in the ten commandments, to see if the rich young ruler will realize that he had broken it. No dice. However, the rich young ruler did recognize that he was lacking something. When he asked what it was, Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor, and then come and follow Him. This would have been what it would have taken for the rich young ruler to fulfill the last of the commandments Jesus mentioned, to love his neighbor as himself. In doing this Jesus was showing to him that he could not measure up to the requirement of the law, showing him that he was a sinner in need of Christ (the Saviour); using the law as a schoolmaster to lead the man ultimately to Christ. This is wholly conjecture; but I believe that the rich young ruler may have been none other than Barnabas, who later sold his entire house and laid the proceeds at the apostles feet. The word of God does not ever return void (Isaiah 55:10-11).

So then, when Jesus said, "If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments," He was in effect giving him an impossible mandate that can only be fulfilled on the other side of the Cross from where the rich young ruler was located.

When we surrender our lives to Jesus as Saviour and Lord, we are justified, that is, declared righteous, not on the basis of anything righteous that we have done (Titus 3:4-7). It is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood (Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9, Romans 3:25). Sanctification comes as the result. We begin to walk according to the commandments in Christ, not because we are focusing on a set of do's and don'ts; but because we are focused on the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now as believers in Christ, when we come face to face with the law we are not unsubject to it in our minds, in fact we are subject to it; because we are not carnally-minded (Romans 8:7). And of course it is the love of God that we keep His commandments (1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10). But we do not, and are not able to, receive the love of God, through looking to obey a set of do's and don'ts. This can only come through faith in Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:1-5).

I saw Shawshank Redemption for the around the third time two nights ago. This time, I saw the film as not about a penal institution or system, but as humans and the human spirit in how it deals with authority taking away one's personality or one's sense of worth or value and how it deals with horrendous realizations of what one's life has become. I rated the film an 8 on IMDB, but bumped it up to a 9 afterward.

Warden Samuel Norton (played by Bob Gunton): [to the new inmates] I believe in two things: discipline and the Bible. Here you'll receive both. Put your trust in the Lord; your ass belongs to me. Welcome to Shawshank.

It turns out the system isn't about rehabilitation, but taking away one's independence and once depenendce upon Shawshank is complete, then the prisoner is granted parole. You can say that Warden Norton had faith, but his faith is overwhelmed by greed. He can't see anything getting in the way of getting his rich retirement and ends up losing his way and becoming a child of the devil. I can't see how his faith and Bible reading helped him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's see how men are judged.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men)

Job 34:11
For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

Psalm 28:4
Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Proverbs 24:12
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 32:19
Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:

Ezekiel 7:3
Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 7:9
And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the Lord that smiteth.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezekiel 24:14
I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord God.

Hosea 12:2
The Lord hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

Zechariah 1:6
But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the Lord of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.

Jeremiah 25:14
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (if you want the rest, I will gladly provide it upon request).

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How many verses do you need to convince you that it is according to man's deeds, works, actions, and doings? Even Paul said God will render to EVERY man according to his deeds. Why would I be wise to consult about Paul's gospel? I have so many passages to believe about my deeds, actions, and works.

In Christ, there is a remission of sins that are past (Romans 3:25); and also the fact that we are new creatures in Christ means that we will walk according to His statutes and judgments (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:25-27).

 

[EmSw]

Justification isn't (Romans 5:1)


We have talked about this before. First of all, the only way we can ever find the ability to be obedient to His commandments is through faith in Jesus Christ (see John 15:1-8).

Secondly, when Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, he knew that he had a works mentality. In the back of His mind, Jesus wanted the rich young ruler to be saved by His grace (see, for example, John 1:14); but as many preachers are aware of, most people will not be responsive to grace until they first hear the message of the law which tells them in the long run that they can never measure up to the righteousness of the Lord in their own lives. They must understand that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. And the law is a perfect way of showing this to the one who honestly measures his own life against it (see Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20). So Jesus, in one of the gospels, adds, Defraud not, which is not in the ten commandments, to see if the rich young ruler will realize that he had broken it. No dice. However, the rich young ruler did recognize that he was lacking something. When he asked what it was, Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor, and then come and follow Him. This would have been what it would have taken for the rich young ruler to fulfill the last of the commandments Jesus mentioned, to love his neighbor as himself. In doing this Jesus was showing to him that he could not measure up to the requirement of the law, showing him that he was a sinner in need of Christ (the Saviour); using the law as a schoolmaster to lead the man ultimately to Christ. This is wholly conjecture; but I believe that the rich young ruler may have been none other than Barnabas, who later sold his entire house and laid the proceeds at the apostles feet. The word of God does not ever return void (Isaiah 55:10-11).

It's amazing how many people think they know what Jesus was thinking. Where did you learn what was 'in the back of His mind'? Jesus did not show the young ruler he could not measure up to the requirement of the law. Where do you all get these ideas?

Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments! So many people can't stand this. They do all they can to show Jesus didn't really mean this. The lack of believing the truth Jesus told us is absolutely amazing.

So then, when Jesus said, "If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments," He was in effect giving him an impossible mandate that can only be fulfilled on the other side of the Cross from where the rich young ruler was located.

Why is it impossible? Why can't you humble yourself and keep the commandments? What is so difficult in keeping them? What problem are you having in keeping them?

Are you wanting to enter life the way Jesus said? Or, do you want to enter some other way? Who are you going to believe?

When we surrender our lives to Jesus as Saviour and Lord, we are justified, that is, declared righteous, not on the basis of anything righteous that we have done (Titus 3:4-7). It is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood (Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9, Romans 3:25). Sanctification comes as the result. We begin to walk according to the commandments in Christ, not because we are focusing on a set of do's and don'ts; but because we are focused on the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now as believers in Christ, when we come face to face with the law we are not unsubject to it in our minds, in fact we are subject to it; because we are not carnally-minded (Romans 8:7). And of course it is the love of God that we keep His commandments (1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10). But we do not, and are not able to, receive the love of God, through looking to obey a set of do's and don'ts. This can only come through faith in Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:1-5).

All I have to say, is it is better to heed the words of the Savior. If that's not your priority, then go about finding another way.

 

[EmSw]

Yes it does. They received life through faith, just as Abraham did (Genesis 15:6). "Live" means to have life, don'tchaknow...

If you can't distinguish a passage which says something about salvation and receiving life, and a passage which doesn't, then you have some soul searching to do.

 

[EmSw]

Okay, I just happened on a scripture today that suffices in my mind (perhaps not in yours if it is closed to the truth).

Psalms 78:21-22, Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel: Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation.

Very good. How do we know the believed not in God and trusted not in His salvation? We can find out by reading more of this chapter.

17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous work.

We see that those who sin against God, tempt Him, and speak against Him is considered not believing in Him. They sinned and therefore, did not trust in His salvation.

It is the same today. Those who remain and continue in sin, do not believe in Jesus. They can say what they want from the lips, but their heart is far from Him.

 

[EmSw]

In Christ, there is a remission of sins that are past (Romans 3:25); and also the fact that we are new creatures in Christ means that we will walk according to His statutes and judgments (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:25-27).

I'm afraid you are not in tune with reality. Many say they are new creatures and still continue to sin, and do not walk according to His statutes. Many will blatantly say believers can sin all they want and still be saved.

 

[amariselle]

If you can't distinguish a passage which says something about salvation and receiving life, and a passage which doesn't, then you have some soul searching to do.

Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[aiki]

Okay, fine; however the parable of the lost coin and the parable of the prodigal son are in the same immediate context and are actually different parables explaining the same exact principle, along with the parable of the 99 and 1 sheep.

I already addressed in an earlier post why, despite their proximity to each other, the two parables address different things.

I suggest that you also look up the verses (Romans 1:29 and 2 Corinthians 12:10) to see what I am saying about the scripture's indictment on what it in those verses calls debate.

I'm familiar with the verses you've cited. I don't see that they have anything to do with the sort of debate that defends, clarifies and explains the doctrines of the faith.

So you're saying the analogy is inconsistent.

No analogy is perfect; if you take any analogy far enough, it breaks down. I offered the analogy in regards to the matter of possession: we can possess salvation without benefiting from it beyond the eternal future in God's kingdom that it obtains. In the here and now I believe it is possible - though extremely unlikely - that a person could be saved but not experience the "abundant life" that is his spiritual birthright in Christ.

 

[EmSw]

Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I thought you had already joined the list of people who could not find OT passages which state how they received life. It looks like you are having a hard time producing such passages.

Are you saying Abraham wasn't saved until Genesis 15:6?

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, hang on, now. To whom was Jesus speaking and when? He was speaking to unsaved Jews, primarily. and he said what he did in Matthew 5:13 before he had died on the cross and made it possible for people to be born-again. So, no, he wasn't speaking to "US," that is, saved people when he spoke of the "salt of the earth." There were no saved people at the time.

Jesus is saying that unsaved sinners are the salt of the earth? That is an interesting point of view (but it defies common sense).

You give lip service to Ephesians 2:8-9 but think and live practically in contradiction to these verses. At least, that's how it looks to me. Am I mischaracterizing your position?

Does living in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8-9 mean living in iniquity? You should check out Isaiah 5:20-21.

We are saved by grace through faith can be interpreted also by Titus 3:4-7, where it says that we are saved through the renewing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost. And also, along that line, the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 includes Ephesians 2:2-3, which tells us that as grace-saved people, we don't any longer walk according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience, and that we don't any longer obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind, seeing we are not children of wrath by nature any more.

 

[amariselle]

I thought you had already joined the list of people who could not find OT passages which state how they received life. It looks like you are having a hard time producing such passages.

Are you saying Abraham wasn't saved until Genesis 15:6?

What’s confusing about those verses? They are absolutely clear. No one has ever been saved by the Law and no one ever will be.

The Law was added because of “transgressions” and as a “schoolmaster” to point us to Christ. It was given to Moses 430 years after the Gospel was given to Abraham.

Salvation has always been by faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

Very good. How do we know the believed not in God and trusted not in His salvation? We can find out by reading more of this chapter.

17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous work.

We see that those who sin against God, tempt Him, and speak against Him is considered not believing in Him. They sinned and therefore, did not trust in His salvation.

It is the same today. Those who remain and continue in sin, do not believe in Jesus. They can say what they want from the lips, but their heart is far from Him.

You have no disagreement from me there. And therefore if you don't believe in Jesus and what He did for you on the Cross, you will remain and continue in sin. And I say this as the truth that establishes what you have said that I put in larger letters above.

 

[justbyfaith]

I already addressed in an earlier post why, despite their proximity to each other, the two parables address different things.

I'm still going through all the posts in this thread. As I write this I am on about page 15 or 16.

I'm familiar with the verses you've cited. I don't see that they have anything to do with the sort of debate that defends, clarifies and explains the doctrines of the faith.

I agree. In fact, Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 2:2 that he preached the gospel to them with much contention. It does not change what I am trying to say by this, that our attitude in contending for the faith must be that of meekly instructing those who oppose themselves, and not to be in the spirit of argument (2 Timothy 2:23-26); so that you think you are trying to win a debate (Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20). That is all I'm going to say about the matter lest I violate the principle I am speaking of.

No analogy is perfect; if you take any analogy far enough, it breaks down. I offered the analogy in regards to the matter of possession: we can possess salvation without benefiting from it beyond the eternal future in God's kingdom that it obtains. In the here and now I believe it is possible - though extremely unlikely - that a person could be saved but not experience the "abundant life" that is his spiritual birthright in Christ.

Fair enough to say that your analogy is not perfect because it does not perfectly portray what you are trying to say but actually portrays the opposite.

 

[justbyfaith]

Very good. How do we know the believed not in God and trusted not in His salvation? We can find out by reading more of this chapter.

17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous work.

We see that those who sin against God, tempt Him, and speak against Him is considered not believing in Him. They sinned and therefore, did not trust in His salvation.

It is the same today. Those who remain and continue in sin, do not believe in Jesus. They can say what they want from the lips, but their heart is far from Him.

Same thing I said about Hebrews 3:17-19. So, I would ask, what was the point of needing to find that doctrine in the OT when it is explained so much more clearly (and in fewer verses) in the NT?

edit after posting #598: because I'm going to hold you to the fact that you said you don't have anything against the NT.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm afraid you are not in tune with reality. Many say they are new creatures and still continue to sin, and do not walk according to His statutes. Many will blatantly say believers can sin all they want and still be saved.

Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[justbyfaith]

Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It's going to fall on deaf ears, @amariselle. He doesn't really hold the New Testament epistles as being inspired as far as I can tell. All we can do is pray for him that the Holy Ghost will convict him for rejecting portions of His word.

 

[EmSw]

What’s confusing about those verses? They are absolutely clear. No one has ever been saved by the Law and no one ever will be.

The Law was added because of “transgressions” and as a “schoolmaster” to point us to Christ. It was given to Moses 430 years after the Gospel was given to Abraham.

Salvation has always been by faith.

Why do you not believe this truth?

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

 

[EmSw]

Matthew 7:21-23.

So, how do you tell true believers?

 

[EmSw]

It's going to fall on deaf ears, @amariselle. He doesn't really hold the New Testament epistles as being inspired as far as I can tell. All we can do is pray for him that the Holy Ghost will convict him for rejecting portions of His word.

And what if I pray for you two because you do not believe the OT?

Oh, and because you reject the words of Jesus.