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When was the Book of Revelation written?

When was the Book of Revelation written?

  • Post 70 AD

    Votes: 27 62.8%
  • Pre 70 AD

    Votes: 16 37.2%

  • Total voters
    43

Biblewriter

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I suspect that the other side probably thinks only 20% of the prophesies about Jesus are supportable. Many Jews thought 0%, many of them. They were there in black and white and flesh and blood and they still did not see the connection. This unwillingness to see prophesy fulfilled is not new. Helps one get perspective when one realizes that many who actually saw and heard and touched Jesus refused to believe the prophesies were fulfilled but prefered it all to be still in the future.
This is a total misrepresentation of what I said. 100% of all Biblical prophecies are supportable. But almost 100% of the Preterist and Historicist claims that these prophecies have already been fulfilled are unsupportable.

Very few of these claims are based on historical records that match more than 20% of the details of the prophecies claimed to have already been fulfilled
 
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claninja

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Very few of these claims are based on historical records that match more than 20% of the details of the prophecies claimed to have already been fulfilled

But this is only, as you stated earlier, according to your own personal research, which may Be biased. Just as a full preterist will say 100% of prophecies are fulfilled based on his or her personal research, or a partial preterist will say 80-90% based on his or her personal research, or An amillenial will say 60-70% based on his or her own personal research, or a dispensationalist will say 20-40% based on his or her own personal research.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Of course Jesus was speaking about a literal temple in Olivet. I would agree with you on most of that prophecy. I agree very little with futurists on it.
Maybe I don’t understand your position yet. I’m new here. My apologies for this.
Jesus a literalist? He was not a literalist when he said "Destroy this temple and I will build it up in three days".
Yes he was. They would destroy his life (body there but severely damaged) and would literally rise it again.

He was not being literal in the parables, which actually means "in figure" He spoke in parables to hide their meaning from unbelievers.
Parables are by definition not describing a particular literal meaning event although common in most if not all cases.
In Revelation Jesus was not speaking literally, he had to explain several things which when we compare them with interpreted visions in Daniel, help us to interpret others.
  • Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
  • Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Is the above literal or symbolic?
I think John saw 7 candlesticks. What they meant was not 7 wax sources of light for a room.
 
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Biblewriter

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But this is only, as you stated earlier, according to your own personal research, which may Be biased. Just as a full preterist will say 100% of prophecies are fulfilled based on his or her personal research, or a partial preterist will say 80-90% based on his or her personal research, or An amillenial will say 60-70% based on his or her own personal research, or a dispensationalist will say 20-40% based on his or her own personal research.
The Preterists indeed claim that (at least almost) 100% of the prophecies have been fulfilled. But their claim is based on assuming that the details of a prophetic statement are simply not important. I have yet to examine even one of their claims (for fulfillment of any prophecy that Futurists do not also agree has been fulfilled) that actually matched even half of the details stated by the Holy Spirit in giving the prophecy.
 
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claninja

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The Preterists indeed claim that (at least almost) 100% of the prophecies have been fulfilled. But their claim is based on assuming that the details of a prophetic statement are simply not important

Their claim comes from this:

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

The 'all these things' include:
1.) wars and rumors of wars
2.) false prophets
3.) earthquakes
4.) famines
5.) pestilence
6.) Jerusalem and the temple's destruction
7.) end of the age
8.) the sign of the son of man
9.) angels Gathering the elect

I have yet to examine even one of their claims (for fulfillment of any prophecy that Futurists do not also agree has been fulfilled) that actually matched even half of the details stated by the Holy Spirit in giving the prophecy.

1.)There were no wars/rumors of wars during the apostle's generation?
2.) There were no false prophets during the apostles' generation?
3.) There were no earthquakes during the apostles' generation?
4.) There were no Famines during the apostles' generation?
5.) There were no pestilence during the apostles' generation?
6.) Jerusalem and the temple were not destroyed during the apostles' generation?
7.) The apostles did not believe they were living at the end of the age or in the last days?
8.) The vineyard owner did come to slaughter the wicked tenants during the apostles' generation?
9.) No one is in heaven yet?

10.) None of this is mentioned in Revelation?
 
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Biblewriter

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Their claim comes from this:

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

The 'all these things' include:
1.) wars and rumors of wars
2.) false prophets
3.) earthquakes
4.) famines
5.) pestilence
6.) Jerusalem and the temple's destruction
7.) end of the age
8.) the sign of the son of man
9.) angels Gathering the elect



1.)There were no wars/rumors of wars during the apostle's generation?
2.) There were no false prophets during the apostles' generation?
3.) There were no earthquakes during the apostles' generation?
4.) There were no Famines during the apostles' generation?
5.) There were no pestilence during the apostles' generation?
6.) Jerusalem and the temple were not destroyed during the apostles' generation?
7.) The apostles did not believe they were living at the end of the age or in the last days?
8.) The vineyard owner did come to slaughter the wicked tenants during the apostles' generation?
9.) No one is in heaven yet?

10.) None of this is mentioned in Revelation?

This is so typical of the claims of Preterists. Here,you have taken a few of the events prophesied as preliminary, concerning which Jesus explicitly said, "all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6) Plus the one event that all agree took place, and completely ignore the rest of the prophecy. The details you have ignored are:

First, that "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14 ) The gospel has not, even yet, reached the entire world.

Second, the words "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath." (Matthew 24:15-20) A few posts back, you tried to pretend that the armies of Rome were the "abomination of desolation." But the prophetic instruction was to flee with great haste when they saw the "abomination of desolation" standing in the the holy place. By the time the armies of Rome arrived at the holy place, it was far too late to flee. So that could not even possibly be what this prophecy was speaking of.

Third, the words "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved." (Matthew 24:22) A war so terrible that it would literally kill everything, not just every human, was unthinkable until our generation. But it is common knowledge today that an all out nuclear exchange would literally kill all flesh on this earth.

Forth, the words "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matthew 24:27) It is irrational to even try to pretend that the Lord himself appeared in any such way that all people saw Him, at any time since these words were spoken.

Fifth, the words "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30) Since these words were spoken, there has never been a time when "all the tribes of the earth" saw the Son of Man coming, and mourned when they saw Him.

Sixth, the words "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31) you pretend that this was fulfilled in the gospel going out. But the agency used of God to spread the gospel is mankind, not angels.

Seventh, the words "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (Matthew 24:36-44) The Roman destruction of the land and then the city and temple came on slowly and inexorably. All knew it was coming, and there was plenty of warning, so much so that the Christians withdrew before it came. So these words cannot even possibly be referring to that event.

You appeal to the words "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34) As proof of your notion. But you have neglected the context of these words.

For what Jesus actually said was, "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:32-34) Jesus was saying that the generation that saw it all begin to happen, would see it all completed. But the only events that were seen by that generation were some concerning which Jesus explicitly said, "all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6)
 
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Erik Nelson

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Matthew 24:6 says "still more to come"...
28 more verses of Prophesy... then...
Matthew 24:34 says "everything up until now will happen to the current generation"

the words "the end is not yet" occur before verse 34, not after
everything up to verse 34 happened within a generation or so [of 30 AD], or Jesus was wrong
 
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Erik Nelson

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I've been hearing this, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. His proper name was Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.
Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, Nero, was born on 15 December 37 AD in Antium He was the only son of Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus and Agrippina the Younger. His maternal grandparents were Germanicus and Agrippina the Elder. His mother was Caligula's sister. He was Augustus' great-great grandson, descended from the first Emperor's only daughter Julia.

Nero - Wikipedia
 
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Erik Nelson

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There is a distinct difference between “he shall send forth his armies and destroy those murders and burn up their city” and “behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him.”
Many statements of Jesus are actually restatements of OT prophesies, i.e. Jesus was making ALLUSIONS, he was alluding to OT prophesies

Allusions point to OT prophesies, they are not independent statements to be interpreted literally on their own

Prophetic language of Mt 24 found throughout the Old Testament

I apologize for the aggressive tone of that article, but I think its general message is largely accurate. Note in particular that verses from Isaiah 19 about the Lord coming on clouds already were fulfilled in ancient times. Note, the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible identifies the Nubians (8th century BC) or Assyrians (7th century BC) as the actual fulfillers of Isaiah 19.

And "Sodom & Egypt" is another name for "Babylon" where the "Lord" Jesus was Crucified (Revelation 11). I.e.

Babylon = Sodom & Egypt = Jerusalem​

And, so

Lord coming on Clouds (Isaiah) = Wrath vs. Egypt (700-500 BC -ish, historically) = Wrath vs. Jerusalem (70 AD, via allusion)​

All of this surely ties in with the plague of 3 "frogs" in Revelation 16 which in turn again alludes to Egypt and the Exodus of (spiritual) Israel. The same chapter depicts plagues against the "Euphrates" and "Babylon", all once again alluding spiritually to physical Jerusalem of 70 AD.

Because Jerusalem crucified Jesus in about 30 AD, this Christian Apocalypse heaps all of the sin & wrath references from the OT -- everything from Sodom & Gomorrah in the 3rd millennium BC to Egypt of the Exodus a thousand years later to Babylon in the 1st millennium BC... heaps it all upon physical Jerusalem, and symbolizes the destruction of the same as Divine Wrath against those who tried to tear down the physical body of Jesus, which was the "tabernacle" (John 1) and "temple" (John 2) of God's Presence on Earth in Judaea and their environs in the 1st century AD... right before the eyes of all Jerusalem
 
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David Kent

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Dispensationalism most certainly did not originate with the “brethren.”
Of course not it originated with the Charismatic Presbyterian church of Edward Irving. Who wrote that he first preached in dispensationalism on Christmas Day 1825, and the next time on the same day in 1826. You will will find it in his Morning Watch magazine, available on Google Books/Google play. You will have to trawl through it as I didn't make a note of which issue.

I wasn't looking for that but I read through a few issues and came across that. I looked randomly but I didn't have to look far. I didn't realise until next time I looked for it that there were so many issues of the magazine online.
 
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Biblewriter

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Of course not it originated with the Charismatic Presbyterian church of Edward Irving. Who wrote that he first preached in dispensationalism on Christmas Day 1825, and the next time on the same day in 1826. You will will find it in his Morning Watch magazine, available on Google Books/Google play. You will have to trawl through it as I didn't make a note of which issue.

I wasn't looking for that but I read through a few issues and came across that. I looked randomly but I didn't have to look far. I didn't realise until next time I looked for it that there were so many issues of the magazine online.

No, Dispensationalism did not originate with the church of Edward Irving either. In 2015 William C. Watson published a 300 page book titled "Dispensationalism before Darby," (Lampion Press, Silverton, OR 97381, ISBN 978-1-942614-03-6) in which he thoroughly proved that the doctrines of Dispensationalism were being widely taught in England in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. And I have found a very significant amount of such writing that he did not include in his work. I am also in the process of publishing a book approximately 150 pages long, which traces Dispensational concepts in some of the very oldest Christian writings that have survived to the present day, and were still being widely taught at least until the fifth century.
 
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Biblewriter

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I apologize for the aggressive tone of that article, but I think its general message is largely accurate. Note in particular that verses from Isaiah 19 about the Lord coming on clouds already were fulfilled in ancient times. Note, the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible identifies the Nubians (8th century BC) or Assyrians (7th century BC) as the actual fulfillers of Isaiah 19.

More Preterist drivel.

It is simple nonsense to even pretend that any of the following has ever been fulfilled, even yet.

"I will set Egyptians against Egyptians; Everyone will fight against his brother, And everyone against his neighbor, City against city, kingdom against kingdom. Isaiah 19:2

"The waters will fail from the sea, And the river will be wasted and dried up. The rivers will turn foul; The brooks of defense will be emptied and dried up; The reeds and rushes will wither. The papyrus reeds by the River, by the mouth of the River, And everything sown by the River, Will wither, be driven away, and be no more. The fishermen also will mourn; All those will lament who cast hooks into the River, And they will languish who spread nets on the waters." Isaiah 19:5-8

"In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction." Isaiah 19:18

"In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them." Isaiah 19:19-22

"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria--a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance." Isaiah 19:23-25






 
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Biblewriter

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The MacArthur Study Bible also recognizes the Assyrian conquest of Egypt in the 7th century BC as fulfillment of Isaiah 19's "fierce king"
Whatever anyone said or did not say has zero bearing on the plain statements of scripture.
 
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David Kent

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"In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them." Isaiah 19:19-22

That was fulfilled and is recorded by Josephus, if I remember about the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. He records that A Jewish Temple was buit in Egypt.
 
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David Kent

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No, Dispensationalism did not originate with the church of Edward Irving either. In 2015 William C. Watson published a 300 page book titled "Dispensationalism before Darby," (Lampion Press, Silverton, OR 97381, ISBN 978-1-942614-03-6) in which he thoroughly proved that the doctrines of Dispensationalism were being widely taught in England in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. And I have found a very significant amount of such writing that he did not include in his work. I am also in the process of publishing a book approximately 150 pages long, which traces Dispensational concepts in some of the very oldest Christian writings that have survived to the present day, and were still being widely taught at least until the fifth century.

I would like to see that.

Historicism has been taught from gospel times
 
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Biblewriter

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I would like to see that.

Historicism has been taught from gospel times
This is as wrong as it could possibly be. Futurism was very clearly taught in the oldest Christian writings on the subject. It was taught by Justyn Martyr, by Irenaeus, by Hippolytus, by Tertullian, Commodianus, Lactantius, Nepos, Apollinaris, Victorinus of Petau, Cyprian of Carthage, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, and Jerome. And Jerome called futurism “the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church.”

Historicism did not even begin to be taught until the 1500s, more than a thousand years after the fifth century Jerome.
 
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συνείδησις

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The Preterists indeed claim that (at least almost) 100% of the prophecies have been fulfilled. But their claim is based on assuming that the details of a prophetic statement are simply not important. I have yet to examine even one of their claims (for fulfillment of any prophecy that Futurists do not also agree has been fulfilled) that actually matched even half of the details stated by the Holy Spirit in giving the prophecy.

Check out the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5. You'll have to do a bit of reading that I'm not going to repeat here - search zechariah + azal + yasul for details. There's no question that prophecy has been fulfilled, and you will probably find no futurists who would agree.

I'm not hyper preterist, btw.
 
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