Can you refute these posts?

[ClementofA]

"Dr. Renald Showers is a promoter of John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine, brought to America about the time of the Civil War.


Replacement Theology:

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.


It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.


It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.


It replaces a Church which began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites and later included Gentiles, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.


It replaces the "son" as the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".


It replaces a Gospel only of Grace, with one that includes race.


It ignores the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


It replaces the New Covenant of Christ, with a "treaty" broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel 9:27.


It is the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, which is the true form of "Replacement Theology"."

Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

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"The old covenant carcass that Bro. Showers constantly attempts to exhume has been dead, decayed, and vanished for about 2,000 years (Hebrews 8:13).

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are noexceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ."

Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?


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"Of course The Church Is Israel.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, many here have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (they count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and "Israel" got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

"Replacing" the everlasting Gospel and eternal Church of Israel with a future temple Judaism, complete with blood animal sacrifices and forced circumcision is the TRUE replacement theology of BACKWARD REDEMPTION.

A concept that, according to the apostles, is a rebuke against the Blood of Christ, a falling away from salvation."

Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Right on! The idea there's a "second coming of the old covenant" is, in my opinion, quite bizarre.

 

[Biblewriter]

Refutation, part 1

"Dr. Renald Showers is a promoter of John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine, brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

I am really surprised that no one had answered you in the two months since you posted this, for these allegations are easily refuted.

It has been shown in this forum again and again, that John Nelson did not originate Dispensationalism, that it was taught in the early church, and was taught by many in the 1600s and 1700s.

Replacement Theology:

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

The scriptures indeed say, “6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.” Galatians 3:15-18

But the context of this statement is what had just been said a few verses earlier, “6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” Galatians 3:6-9

So this was discussing one occasion at which God made promises to Abraham. But there were other promises made to Abraham, in terms that distinctly implied many descendants of Abraham. Some of these are:

“And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.” Genesis 13:14-17

“And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Genesis 15:2-6

“And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Genesis 15:13-16

“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” Genesis 17:1-8

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.]/QUOTE]

This is not the case al all. For the scriptures distinctly say two things about the children of Israel when they return. The first of these is that, at the time of their return, God will purge the rebels from among them. This is distinctly stated in Ezekiel 20:38, even going so far as to say of these rebels that “I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel.” Then, in Ezekiel 36:24-27 the Lord says, “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.”

So the promise, although limited to the fleshly seed of Abraham, was also limited to his spiritual seed, the children of the promise.

 

[Biblewriter]

Refutation, part 2

It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

Again, not so. The “then” interpretation refers, not to this word “so” which is more properly translated “thus,” or “in this way,” but back to the word “until” in the previous verse.

It replaces a Church which began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites and later included Gentiles, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

I have been a Dispensationalist for at least 55 years, and have been a leader among them for at least 40. And I have never, even once, heard even one of them say that the church is composed only of Gentiles. They teach, and clearly teach, that the church is composed of both Jewish and Gentile believers.

It replaces the "son" as the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

Matthew 21 simply dies not say that the Son is the heir “of the land.” This is pure interpretation. It only says that he is “the heir.”

It replaces a Gospel only of Grace, with one that includes race.

Again, false. If you expand the passage I already quoted, Ezekiel 36:24-27 to include the entire promise made by God at that time, verses 24-32, you will see that this promise was based entirely upon grace.

It ignores the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Actually, it is based on this new covenant.

It is simple nonsense to claim that Hebrews 8:11 was fulfilled during the first century. For it says, “None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” And the “you” in the book of Hebrews12:22 is “the Hebrews,” for that is who the book is addressed to.

It replaces the New Covenant of Christ, with a "treaty" broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel 9:27.

This is utter nonsense. I have never heard even one Dispensationalist, anywhere, that equated the broken “one week” covenant with the new covenant. And actually, a gap of time in the prophecy is clearly intimated in the prophecy itself. For the finalweek of the prophecy is not even mentioned until after the destruction of “the city and the sanctuary.” and it was after the “seven weeks and sixty and two weeks” that Messiah was to come. But that was 40 years before the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.

It is the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, which is the true form of "Replacement Theology"."
Then after all this, you attemt to use human reasoning to escape the c;ear statements of Old Testament prophecy, saying,

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Human reasoning is never an answer to explicitly stated scripture.

 

[jgr]

Again, not so. The “then” interpretation refers, not to this word “so” which is more properly translated “thus,” or “in this way,” but back to the word “until” in the previous verse.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The word is "so", not "then". Absent the word "then", there is therefore no "then" interpretation.

 

[Biblewriter]

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The word is "so", not "then". Absent the word "then", there is therefore no "then" interpretation.

That is exactly what I said. But the "then" interpretation does not refer to this verse, but to the words "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." in the previous verse, Romans 11:25.

 

[jgr]

That is exactly what I said. But the "then" interpretation does not refer to this verse, but to the words "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." in the previous verse, Romans 11:25.

A word which does not appear at all in the text cannot be said to have an "interpretation". It can only be said to have an "hallucination".

 

[Biblewriter]

A word which does not appear at all in the text cannot be said to have an "interpretation". It can only be said to have an "hallucination".

The interpretation is based on the word "until," which is indeed in the text, in the form of the Greek word "achris," which literally translates as "until." and an "until" clearly implies a "then."

 

[jgr]

The interpretation is based on the word "until," which is indeed in the text, in the form of the Greek word "achris," which literally translates as "until." and an "until" clearly implies a "then."

What is the dispensational definition of "then" in Romans 11:26?

 

[Biblewriter]

What is the dispensational definition of "then" in Romans 11:26?

They do not get the word "then" from that verse.

 

[jgr]

They do not get the word "then" from that verse.

True, but they insert it into that verse as a replacement for "so".

So what definition of "then" do they then use?

 

[Biblewriter]

True, but they insert it into that verse as a replacement for "so".

So what definition of "then" do they then use?

I do not even know who you are citing. I have never noticed this being done in any commentry I have read.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True, but they insert it into that verse as a replacement for "so".

So what definition of "then" do they then use?

There is no need, Even with the word so. it denotes the fact that at a particular time, All Israel will be saved. (so, all Isreal will be saved)

the question is when will this "So" Occur

as was shown, it is the when the time of the gentile has been completed.

The question we need to ask, is when will this happen. Because at this time pauls argument is, all Israel will be saved (they are currently blinded in part)

 

[jgr]

There is no need, Even with the word so. it denotes the fact that at a particular time, All Israel will be saved. (so, all Isreal will be saved)

the question is when will this "So" Occur

as was shown, it is the when the time of the gentile has been completed.

The question we need to ask, is when will this happen. Because at this time pauls argument is, all Israel will be saved (they are currently blinded in part)

"Then" is an adverb of time, i.e. "when". "So" is an adverb of manner, i.e. "how". Paul declares in Romans 11:26 "how" the believing remnant of Israel will be saved, by being grafted into Christ together with believing Gentiles as described in the preceding verses. There is no "when" in Romans 11:26.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"Then" is an adverb of time, i.e. "when". "So" is an adverb of manner, i.e. "how". Paul declares in Romans 11:26 "how" the believing remnant of Israel will be saved, by being grafted into Christ together with believing Gentiles as described in the preceding verses. There is no "when" in Romans 11:26.

true, but I also think the passage refers to not only how, but when. and "so" relates to those things

How, is being grafted into (by their repentance and faith in Christ)

When is inferred by the fact the blindness in part will continue until the time of the gentile is fulfilled.

 

[jgr]

true, but I also think the passage refers to not only how, but when. and "so" relates to those things

How, is being grafted into (by their repentance and faith in Christ)

When is inferred by the fact the blindness in part will continue until the time of the gentile is fulfilled.

The "blindness in part" did not mean that all of Israel was blinded, but that some were blinded and others not. This was confirmed by the composition of the Church at its birth on the Day of Pentecost; it was comprised overwhelmingly of "unblinded" Israelites. The process has continued throughout history to this day, whenever anyone from the Jewish community places his or her faith in Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The "blindness in part" did not mean that all of Israel was blinded, but that some were blinded and others not. This was confirmed by the composition of the Church at its birth on the Day of Pentecost; it was comprised overwhelmingly of "unblinded" Israelites. The process has continued throughout history to this day, whenever anyone from the Jewish community places his or her faith in Christ.

Yes, blindness in part means nothing more than some are savd, but some are not, ie, not all isreal is saved,

Yet it has been that way since day 1 in reality, when the left egypt, many were still blind,

To me pauls argument is that there will be a day when all of israel is saved, non will be blind,

 

[jgr]

Yes, blindness in part means nothing more than some are savd, but some are not, ie, not all isreal is saved,

Yet it has been that way since day 1 in reality, when the left egypt, many were still blind,

To me pauls argument is that there will be a day when all of israel is saved, non will be blind,

Only the believing remnant (Romans 9:27; 11:5), the "Israel within Israel" (Romans 9:6); will be saved. This recognition was the reason for Paul's anguish in Romans 9:1-3.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Only the believing remnant (Romans 9:27; 11:5), the "Israel within Israel" (Romans 9:6); will be saved. This recognition was the reason for Paul's anguish in Romans 9:1-3.

I believe Romans 11 states a fact, at some time in the future, all Israel will be saved, this is also confirmd by many OT prophesies.

They will be saved because they believe, just like we all were saved

 

[jgr]

I believe Romans 11 states a fact, at some time in the future, all Israel will be saved, this is also confirmd by many OT prophesies.

What is the definition of Israel? What are the distinguishing and identifying characteristics which qualify an individual to be considered a part of Israel?