OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Major1]

I never said they were.
YOU brought up 1 John 2:19 re loss of salvation.
I never would because you're right, they were never saved.

Then onece again we are in agreement.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which Protestant denomination would that be????

Of course, since the Bible does NOT teach salvation through water baptism, it really does not matter if the person wants to or not. He can of course desire to be baptized and actually every one who accepts the Lord Jesus should have that desire, but whether he does or does not has nothing to do with his salvation.

Salvation is actually a "state of mind" and not a position of the body being dry or wet.

I'm not quoting a protestant source.
I'm quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Major1]

I agree, I 'd like to add this...

It's more LIKELY that a person that does good deeds and is kind hearted will come to salvation because they may be more inclined to accept God's salvation.

And the opposite is also true. I believe it would be difficult for someone like Hitler to suddenly turn from his evil ways. it would be less likely for him to turn to God.

Richard Dawkin, OTOH, was probably a moral person who just couldn't believe in God. So it might have been easier for him.

I would only interject here that God is so powerful and the Holy Spirit so strong that over time they have saved some of the meanest people in the world.

Remember Jeffery Dahmer? He kidnapped, rapped, killed and then ate something like 15 or 16 people in Chicago Ill. back in the 80's.

It has been reported that he came to Christ in prison, was in fact working for Christ and was witnesses for Him when he was killed by inmates.

 

[Major1]

I'm not quoting a protestant source.
I'm quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You said that you know of Protestant churches that practiced infant baptism and I was curious which Protestant churches practice infant baptism?

 

[GodsGrace101]

You said that you know of Protestant churches that practiced infant baptism and I was curious which Protestant churches practice infant baptism?

Sorry. I didn't understand.
Let's see, I don't know them all...
Lutherans
Nazarenes
Anglicans
Methodist?

That's all I can think of, there may be more.

 

[Major1]

I agree, I 'd like to add this...

It's more LIKELY that a person that does good deeds and is kind hearted will come to salvation because they may be more inclined to accept God's salvation.

And the opposite is also true. I believe it would be difficult for someone like Hitler to suddenly turn from his evil ways. it would be less likely for him to turn to God.

Richard Dawkin, OTOH, was probably a moral person who just couldn't believe in God. So it might have been easier for him.

Remember......God uses the most unlikely people.

Moses could not speak well.
Noah was a drunk.
Abraham was a real old man.
Rahab was a harlot.
David broke just about every commandment God gave.
Jonah ran away from God.
Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a persecutor of Christians.

 

[Major1]

Rev 20-21
Vs 2-10 is the short summary
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The blessed and holy saints of God - are raised in the "FIRST" resurrection. at the start of the 1000 years ... (The dead in Christ rise first - 1 Thess 4).

The wicked are raised AFTER the 1000 years..

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever


=========================

Where did that city full of saints come from?

Rev 21

Rev 21 -- 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ... 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

"In My fathers house are many dwelling places - I go to prepare a place for you" John 14

What a mess!

I would not know where to start to help your understanding my friend and actually none of your comment is about "Sola Scriptura".

I suggest you start a thread on your opinion of "There will be no life during
the 1000 Year Rule of Christ".

 

[GodsGrace101]

Remember......God uses the most unlikely people.

Moses could not speak well.
Noah was a drunk.
Abraham was a real old man.
Rahab was a harlot.
David broke just about every commandment God gave.
Jonah ran away from God.
Matthew was a tax collector.
Paul was a persecutor of Christians.

Good point.

 

[BobRyan]

Then Rev. 20:9 says...………
"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

IF the earth is desolate for 1000 years as you claim......then WHO are those people in the city of Jerusalem?????

Rev 20-21
Vs 2-10 is the short summary
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The blessed and holy saints of God - are raised in the "FIRST" resurrection. at the start of the 1000 years ... (The dead in Christ rise first - 1 Thess 4).

The wicked are raised AFTER the 1000 years..

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever


=========================

Where did that city full of saints come from?

Rev 21

Rev 21 -- 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ... 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

"In My fathers house are many dwelling places - I go to prepare a place for you" John 14

==============================

Because... "Bible details matter"

What a mess!

Less Bible then??

 

[BobRyan]

You said that you know of Protestant churches that practiced infant baptism and I was curious which Protestant churches practice infant baptism?

Methodist.
Presbyterian
Anglican

 

[BobRyan]

Sure. And this is why I don't really agree with baby baptism, but even some protestant churches practice this.

Ok - that is true.

 

[EmSw]

NO!

But it is not a YES or NO answer. The key to what you asked is the word KNOWN SIN.

YOUR words were...…"Lie every day"/ Commit adultery every week/ continuelly steal from work.

All of those are on-going KNOW sin full practices which proves that the person IS NOT SAVED.

Thank you my friend, for being honest. You do see that there is something a true believer must do and not do in order to be saved.

1 John 3:9.....…..
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Galatians 6:7-8...….
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

We see that the practice of sinning is not lifestyle of one born again. You see this when you gave the two previous passages. We see it's not faith alone which saves, but faith and good works.

Now here is a YES or NO question for you.

Since you gave been saved, have you EVER looked at a naked woman and thought,
"WOW, she is beautiful". LUST!

According to YOUR thinking YOU just lost your salvation!!!!!

Since you have been saved, when someone asked you how you were feeling you replied......OK, but in fact you were sick as dog. You just LIED.

According to your thinking YOU just lost your salvation.

Since you have been saved, have you said "God bless you" when someone sneezed?

According to your thinking you just took the Lords name in vaiv and you lost your salvation.

Since you have been saved, have you ever worked on Saturday the Sabbath?
Drove the car on vacation or to the store or taken your child to the hospital. YOU just broke the Sabbath and according to your thinking you lost your salvation.

Now if YOU want to think and live like that my friend......go right ahead and do so.

I do not disagree with your statements. God forbid I continue living as you described above. I am not perfect, and not immune to sin. However, by the mercy of God, He has given us the prescription to remedy our sickness of sinning.

We must repent of the sins we commit. Jesus said if we do not repent, we will perish. With repentance, there is forgiveness. I have given the meaning of forgiveness before, and will include it again if you like.

We are told to bring forth fruits worthy of our repentance (Matthew 3:8, Acts 26:20). We are not to continue doing the evil works of which we have repented.

IMO, if you have never done any of those things I for one would say that you are not telling the truth and there is that salvation thing again.

IF you however have done any of them then you would be a hypocrite.

It's not a hypocrite who sins; it's only a hypocrite to pretends to be saved, and continues to sin.

 

[Major1]

Thank you my friend, for being honest. You do see that there is something a true believer must do and not do in order to be saved.



We see that the practice of sinning is not lifestyle of one born again. You see this when you gave the two previous passages. We see it's not faith alone which saves, but faith and good works.



I do not disagree with your statements. God forbid I continue living as you described above. I am not perfect, and not immune to sin. However, by the mercy of God, He has given us the prescription to remedy our sickness of sinning.

We must repent of the sins we commit. Jesus said if we do not repent, we will perish. With repentance, there is forgiveness. I have given the meaning of forgiveness before, and will include it again if you like.

We are told to bring forth fruits worthy of our repentance (Matthew 3:8, Acts 26:20). We are not to continue doing the evil works of which we have repented.



It's not a hypocrite who sins; it's only a hypocrite to pretends to be saved, and continues to sin.

I guess that somehow you did not know that I realized exactly what you were trying to do by asking for a YES or NO answer only.

Now, do you see how deceptive your actions were? Everyone else certainly does.
You see, I DID NOT SAY or imply that there was something we need to do in order to be saved.

You said...………..
'We see it's not faith alone which saves, but faith and good works.

Again, I DID NOT SAY THAT!

Exodus 20:16…………..
"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

By your thinking you just lost your salvation my friend.

I said...…..
1 John 3:9.....…..
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Galatians 6:7-8...….
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

To which you replied...……..
"We see that the practice of sinning is not lifestyle of one born again. You see this when you gave the two previous passages. We see it's not faith alone which saves, but faith and good works."

Correct! THE CONTINUEING PRACTICE OF COMMITTING KNOWN SIN IS THE LIFE STYLE OF THE LOST MAN!

Now the rest of your comment #413 is spot on and I agree completely.

 

[Major1]

Rev 20-21
Vs 2-10 is the short summary
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The blessed and holy saints of God - are raised in the "FIRST" resurrection. at the start of the 1000 years ... (The dead in Christ rise first - 1 Thess 4).

The wicked are raised AFTER the 1000 years..

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever


=========================

Where did that city full of saints come from?

Rev 21

Rev 21 -- 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ... 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

"In My fathers house are many dwelling places - I go to prepare a place for you" John 14

==============================

Because... "Bible details matter"



Less Bible then??

You are correct that it is only the Bible that matters and not what we think.

I understand what you are wanting to believe in that after Christ has returned at the second coming and resurrects the saints, He takes us home to the Heavenly Kingdom and the New Jerusalem, and there we dwell for 1000 years, while Satan is bound to this desolate earth with no one to tempt, as all the wicked were killed at the second coming.

But is that what the Bible actually says????????

When we Revelation 19:15-21, and I encourage you to read all of those verses, what we do not find is that Jesus Christ takes us home to the Heavenly Kingdom and the New Jerusalem.

What we do see is that in Rev. 19:14 all the host of heaven comes down with Christ to witness Him at Armageddon.

Rev. 19:14....…..
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

The next chronological event then is found in Rev. 20:1-2...………
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years".

THEN the 1000 year rule of Christ begins which is the Kingdom promised in the Old Testament in Revelation 20:4...……..
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If the earth is desolate for the 1000 years, THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE"??????

DETAILS MATTER! The BIBLE is the only correct method of understanding!!!
What I am saying to you is based on the literal, grammatical, historical interpretation of Scripture that interprets Scripture for what it says. It follows the basic hermeneutical principle that says, If the literal sense makes sense seek no other sense.

That being the case, then The Bible says Christ's return to Earth will be followed by a literal thousand year reign just as the Bible predicts here in Revelation 20:4.
This is the only view that alone strictly adheres to consistent principles of biblical interpretation. In other words, it is based on sound biblical hermeneutics.

If you would like to read up on these very important principles of interpretation, I recommend to you to read Bernard Ramm's book, Protestant Biblical Interpretation.

Now then, YOU have repeatedly stated that the earth will be DESOLATE for 1000 years.

That means you have completely disregarded the fact that there will be HUMANS who were saved during the Tribulation and lived through it. The saints who are on Earth when Christ returns will remain on Earth to enter the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies.

Please, for your benefit, read Matthew 25:31-46. This passage is commonly called the separation or judgment of the sheep and the goats. The sheep and goats refer to righteous and unrighteous Gentiles. Christ will judge the unrighteous Gentiles (goats), and they will be cast into the lake of fire for eternal punishment. Therefore, no unbelieving Gentile will survive to live on into the millennial kingdom. The righteous Gentiles, or sheep, will live on into the millennial kingdom.

Now, since that is exactly what Jesus said, DID HE LIE??????
If this is what will happen but YOU say that the earth will be DESOLATE, what then is the reason for the Judgment of Nations??????
The believers who are human and live through the Tribulation will enter the 1000 year rule of Christ ON THE EARTH and will give birth to children and will populate the Earth.

DETAILS MATTER my friend!

Now to complicate your theology even more......Then the New Jerusalem, The Holy City of God which is in fact the BRIDE OF CHRIST does not come down after Armageddon!
It does not come down until the 1000 years Earthly Rule of Christ in over.

Revelation 20:7...………
" And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

Then the Great White Throne Judgment of the lost of all the ages takes place in Rev. 20:11-15...………
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

THEN the next chronological ordered event is Rev. 21:1-2...……..
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Chapters 21 and 22 take place AFTER the 1000 year rule of Christ!

You see, Bible detail certainly do matter don't they????

 

[BobRyan]

You are correct that it is only the Bible that matters and not what we think.

Now see? We do agree on something!

I understand what you are wanting to believe in that after Christ has returned at the second coming and resurrects the saints, He takes us home to the Heavenly Kingdom and the New Jerusalem, and there we dwell for 1000 years, while Satan is bound to this desolate earth with no one to tempt, as all the wicked were killed at the second coming.

Well that is what the Bible says as I keep showing the texts about there being
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to bury them as we saw in the texts quoted
2. And Rev 19 says that after killing all the armies opposing Christ --"the rest are killed"
3. And John 14 says that Jesus takes all the saints to heaven when He shows up. We also see that in 1Thess 4.
4. And Matthew 24 says that happens "immediately after the great tribulation.



Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,



It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

But is that what the Bible actually says????????

Indeed - those texts are in the actual Bible.

and... Bible details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

The next chronological event then is found in Rev. 20:1-2...………
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years".

THEN the 1000 year rule of Christ begins which is the Kingdom promised in the Old Testament in Revelation 20:4...……..
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If the earth is desolate for the 1000 years, THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE"??????

They are all in heaven and as Rev 3 says the saints rule "with a rod of iron" -- which is "judgment".
1 Cor 6 the saints sit in judgment of the wicked.

While earth is desolated.. during that 1000 years no more sinning going on - and saints in heaven are sitting in judgment of the wicked. When that 1000 years end they come to Earth with the New Jerusalem and the penalty determined for the wicked during that time of judgment is "executed" in that the wicked are then ... and only then...resurrected, shown their judgment result and cast into the lake of fire.


DETAILS MATTER! The BIBLE is the only correct method of understanding!!!
What I am saying to you is based on the literal, grammatical, historical interpretation of Scripture that interprets Scripture for what it says. It follows the basic hermeneutical principle that says, If the literal sense makes sense seek no other sense.

That being the case, then The Bible says Christ's second coming includes the rapture of the saints and desolation of the Earth followed by a literal thousand year reign just as the Bible predicts here in Revelation 20:4.
This is the only view that alone strictly adheres to consistent principles of biblical interpretation. In other words, it is based on sound biblical hermeneutics.

 

[Major1]

You are of course welcomed to your opinion.



Yes it does.

Wicked all destroyed at second coming.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And of course Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 both say that after the tribulation the saints taken to heaven - raptures "the dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive and remain caught up in the air" -- all saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming.

Leaving no one alive on earth for that 1000 years.
====================



No it does not.



Not true.




Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,



It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.



I have free will - you can claim whatever you wish.
I just read what the Bible says.

So I am going to stick with the Word of God on this one.



Rev 19
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints

Rev 14
First the Saints
Reaping the Earth’s Harvest
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.


Then the wicked
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Your theology read a whole lot like Seventh Day Advantists publications my friend.
In fact it reads from "THESE TIMES- The Amazing Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation".

Now from what I understand from YOUR posts, you are an "Amillennialist" and have actually replaced Israel with the church which is "Replacement Theology". So you have several beliefs that are causing all kinds of problems for you and it really doers manifest itself in what you are saying.

I would encourage you to read the BIBLE itself and there you would find the truth.
For example, you have tried to tie several Old. Test. Scriptures into your theology without giving any merit to what they actually do say. To you they SOUND like they would support your theology but upon careful reading we can see that..……………

EZEKIEL 32:4-8
This is not against the whole earth but is directed toward Egypt. It is completely in error to try and make it fit your theology. It is the 6th oracle against Egypt and comes in the form of a funeral dirge or lament.

JEREMIAH 4:23-26
This is not a prophecy against the earth AT LARGE but against
Judah and Jerusalem. See v. 5, 6, 10, 14, 16, 22. v. 20 says "the
whole land" yes, land of Judah. v. 23 the Hebrew word translated
"earth" can is translated "land."
The Amplified Bible renders it "land" as in v. 20. v. 27 there will not be a
full destruction.

JEREMIAH 25:33
This verse nowhere says every last single soul will be
slain - only there will be slain people all over the earth.

Isaiah was given the same prophecy, Isa.66:15-18. He was told the
slain of the Lord shall be many.

ZEPHANIAH 1:18
CONTEXT demands something different that what you want to believe.
Zeph. is referring to the coming BAYLONIAN Invasion.
Verse 4 says..……"And I will stretch out my hand upon JUDAH and upon all the inhabitants of JERUSALEM...….".

You are making the classic error of "Cherry Picking" a verse or chapter here and there that sounds like it applies to YOUR theology without considering the real history and purpose of those Scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

Then the New Jerusalem, The Holy City of God which is in fact the BRIDE OF CHRIST does not come down after Armageddon!
It does not come down until the 1000 years Earthly Rule of Christ in over.

True -- at the 2nd coming the saints are raptured ... taken to heaven just as Jesus stated in John 14 and in Matthew 24 and in 1Thess 4.

What remains on earth is the destroyed cities - the destroyed wicked.

Revelation 20:7...………
" And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

True

"the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years are ended" which is the moment Satan is released.

(Hint not all of Revelation is in chronological order. The second coming event is seen in Rev 6 and in Rev 14 and in Rev 19)

Bible details matter.

Then the Great White Throne Judgment of the lost of all the ages takes place in Rev. 20:11-15...………
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Then the New Earth is created.

...

Then we see John going over the details "again" on with expanded focus on the city that comes down out of heaven... the same city filled with saints that was being surrounded in Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years.

You see, Bible detail certainly do matter don't they!!

 

[BobRyan]

Your theology read a whole lot like Seventh Day Advantists publications my friend.
In fact it reads from "THESE TIMES- The Amazing Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation".

In fact my screen name, tag says - I am SDA.. Seventh-day Adventist. So not too surprising that my posts "agree with" things you can find said by other Adventists.

(Christianity Today - 2015 finds that the SDA denomination is the fastest growing, fifth largest Christian denomination in the world
Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?
)

and have actually replaced Israel with the church

Bible details matter.

Romans 2 for example... matters.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 for example... matters


Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.



So we see here that we Bible details with which you have all kinds of problems and it really doers manifest itself in what you are saying.

I would encourage you to read the BIBLE itself and there you would find the truth.
For example, you have tried ignore several Old. Test. Scriptures in your theology without giving any merit to what they say.

Remember... "Bible details matter"

)

Now from what I understand from YOUR posts, you are an "Amillennialist"

huh??

Post-Trib, Pre-Mill, literal 1000 years to be exact. Not even remotely Amillennialist.

and have actually replaced Israel with the church

Bible details matter.

Romans 2 for example... matters.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 for example... matters


Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.



So we see here that we Bible details with which you have all kinds of problems and it really doers manifest itself in what you are saying.

I would encourage you to read the BIBLE itself and there you would find the truth.
For example, you have tried ignore several Old. Test. Scriptures in your theology without giving any merit to what they say.

Remember... "Bible details matter"

 

[Major1]

They are all in heaven and as Rev 3 says the saints rule "with a rod of iron" -- which is "judgment".
the saints rule "with a rod of iron"

While earth is desolated.. during that 1000 years no more sinning going on - and saints in heaven are sitting in judgment of the wicked. When that 1000 years end they come to Earth with the New Jerusalem and the penalty determined for the wicked during that time of judgment is "executed" in that the wicked are then ... and only then...resurrected, shown their judgment result and cast into the lake of fire.


DETAILS MATTER! The BIBLE is the only correct method of understanding!!!
What I am saying to you is based on the literal, grammatical, historical interpretation of Scripture that interprets Scripture for what it says. It follows the basic hermeneutical principle that says, If the literal sense makes sense seek no other sense.

That being the case, then The Bible says Christ's second coming includes the rapture of the saints and desolation of the Earth followed by a literal thousand year reign just as the Bible predicts here in Revelation 20:4.
This is the only view that alone strictly adheres to consistent principles of biblical interpretation. In other words, it is based on sound biblical hermeneutics.

YES, Bible details matter. That being said then please know that Revelation 3 DOES NOT SAY "the saints rule "with a rod of iron" .

YES, DETAILS MATTER. Again you have misquoted the Scriptures for your own benefit and theology. 1 Corth. 6:2 is the verse you are quoting and it does NOT SAY that the saints will judge the WICKED".
It says in ALL translation that "THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE THE WORLD".

DETAILS!!!

You said...……….
"during that 1000 years no more sinning going on - and saints in heaven are sitting in judgment of the wicked."

See what happens when you mess up the DETAILS. You changed WORLD to WICKED and then used that to say Saints will judge the WICKED who are on the earth which is desolate.

WRONG-WRONG!!!!

There will be NO WICKED left on the earth after Jesus comes. That is the reason He comes again. HE judges the WICKED and the only people left on the earth after Armageddon will be the remnant or those who were saved out of the Tribulation.